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ryanoneil
Guest
Fair enough. I would describe it more in light of:
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, (1 Tim 2:1)
We all know that there is one mediator, but Paul suggests that This is good and pleasing to God our savior (1 Tim 2:3) that we are subordinate mediators in Christ.
This is my tradition shining through, so I’ll move on.
Quite probably. That is a deep subject.
Well, there is nothing wrong with supporting our theologies, as long as our conversation is a learning experience.
Absolutely!
Absolutely.
It makes me think about predestination like you mentioned earlier. Now I’m not trying to make this thread spin out of control, but it is alot to think about. I think about how our prayers, especially those of a righteous person like Paul, fit into God’s will.
If you don’t want to dig into this can of worms that is fine. I just think about these things.
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tGette
Guest
I am not sure I quite see where you find it saying this (Philippians Chapter 2, right?). I cannot say I see it explicitly…does it say it implicitly that I am over looking it? I know I will feel silly when you respond and I am not seeing what you mean.Can you see where you can get Calvinism at the end of the chapter 2 in which God grants belief and suffering both?
Is it verse 13?:
“For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”
Is it verse 17?:
“But, even if I am poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with all of you.”
Or is it the very end verses 29 and 30?:
Welcome him then in the Lord with all joy and hold such people in esteem,because for the sake of the work of Christ he came close to death, risking his life to make up for those services to me that you could not perform.
Just in response to how you asked:
God grants these things, but He does not cause them to happen. As in there is a difference in God allowing things to happen (or creating everything so there is the possibility for certain things to happen) and God making something happen.
Please let me know if I got the verses wrong. Thanks!
R
Reformed
Guest
Maybe prayer is God’s way to conform our will to His will? Scripture reveals that the Spirit and Christ intercedes on our behalf. In addition, I believe John tells us God hears us according to His will (paraphrased). I read through Philippians in the car while I waited to pickup my son this evening. That book is stacked for Calvinism (LOL… unintentional). I’m allowing the person who posted first to pick the next letter from Paul when we are done with Philippians.Fair enough. I would describe it more in light of:
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, (1 Tim 2:1)
We all know that there is one mediator, but Paul suggests that This is good and pleasing to God our savior (1 Tim 2:3) that we are subordinate mediators in Christ.
This is my tradition shining through, so I’ll move on.
Quite probably. That is a deep subject.
Well, there is nothing wrong with supporting our theologies, as long as our conversation is a learning experience.
Absolutely!
Absolutely.
It makes me think about predestination like you mentioned earlier. Now I’m not trying to make this thread spin out of control, but it is alot to think about. I think about how our prayers, especially those of a righteous person like Paul, fit into God’s will.
If you don’t want to dig into this can of worms that is fine. I just think about these things.
1 John 5:14
And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
R
Reformed
Guest
I’m sorry, I mean at the end of chapter 1.
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake”,
In regards to God accomplishing His will through granting, causing, permitting, ect…the results are the same. If God is all powerful, He always has the ability to prevent something from happening. If He does not prevent or intervene from somthing to happen, doesn’t God indirectly cause it to happen since He did not intereven to prevent something? Can God prevent all adopted children from being apostate? My ansewer is yes. This is a truth you can rest upon:
Romans 8:28-39
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Yes, I think your onto something.
And switching gears, the more I think about it the more I agree with you on Christ’s direct revelation to Paul.
Paul, an apostle not from human beings nor through a human being but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead (Gal 1:1)
R
Reformed
Guest
Paul was radically obsessed about the gospel of God’s grace. He was extremely obsessed about proclaiming the gospel as well as defending it. We are only in chapter 1, and how many times does he use the word “gospel” in chapter 1?
Philippians 1:5
because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
Philippians 1:7
It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace,[1] both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.
Philippians 1:12
I want you to know, brothers,[1] that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel,
Philippians 1:16
The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy[1] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,
Gal 1
Paul Called by God
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. [3] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ
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Mickey
Guest
Amen my brother in Christ. Suffering in Christ is a gift.
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ryanoneil
Guest
What do you make of this verse?
for I know that this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Phil. 1:19
We see this as Paul acknowledging the power of intercessory prayer. Not that the prayers in themselves have any power, but how God responds to us.
It is no surprise considering how he was before his conversion. I have to believe the Lord used his zelot personality for a reason.
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Reformed
Guest
I think God will accomplish his will through his means. Through the means of prayer, maybe that’s how will are able to participate with God to accomplishing His will. We know God does not need us to pray to accomplish His will. Prayer is for our good and growth. Prayer also seems to help us grow in faith and trust in God. How many times in our lives as Christians that we pray, and God in His perfect timing…answers according to His divine wisdom in our lives? When that happens, we are just in awe…right? I don’t think prayer is about changing God’s will, but ultimately to line up our will with His will. I believe God is immutable. I think Roman Catholicism teaches that God is immutable too, correct? Then why pray? Maybe for our good and our transformation? What do you seem to think prayer is about?
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8
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Reformed
Guest
Thank you for the encouragement. Please continue to share your insights. How many times do you think we can have a bible study as Christians, regardless of our traditions and religious communities. I believe God will bless all who will participate. It’ nice to let our guards down, and let God work in our lives according to His wisdom and not ours. I really think too much apologetics causes us to discuss things in the flesh; therefore God does not bless our efforts. We all know in part and are in a transformation process. We never arrive in this life… the struggling in this life is a good thing. In our struggles, we turn to Christ.
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Reformed
Guest
Keep praying for us and see what happens?That’s not what the Reformed usually say about Catholics - I’m puzzled…
Back to the thread though. I wish you all success with it
Thanks for the kind words.
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Pixie_Dust
Guest
If you’ll indulge me a moment, I’ll quote CS Lewis - I believe it’s from The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, speaking of Aslan: “I think he likes to be asked.” God knows what we need before we ask (Matthew 6:8), but He likes to be asked. He wants us to communicate with Him. “Hitherto you have not asked any thing in my name. Ask, and you shall receive; that your joy may be full.” John 16:24
30 I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God, 31That I may be delivered from the unbelievers that are in Judea, and that the oblation of my service may be acceptable in Jerusalem to the saints. 32 That I may come to you with joy, by the will of God, and may be refreshed with you. 33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen. ~Romans 15
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. I agree. God bless you.
**It is a fact, brothers and sisters, that the path of the saints in this life is one full of troubles. They either endure the pain of longing for that which is to come, like the one who said, ‘Woe is me that I have such a long pilgrimage’ (Ps. 120:5, LXX) or they are distressed by their longing for the salvation of others, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, ‘I am afraid that when I come to you, God may humble me and cause me to weep and mourn over many who have sinned and not repented of impurity, fornication and licentiousness which they have practiced.’ **
St. Athanasius
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Reformed
Guest
That’s a good point! We know that faith pleases God. Maybe through prayer, we are showing that we are trusting or having faith to come to Him as our only source for all things? When we don’t ask in prayer, are we living by our own strenght and our own apparent resources?
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Reformed
Guest
When I think about reading the various posts on this forum site, much of the reaction is against “Easy Believism” (altar call and sinner’s prayer conversions). That kind of protestantism is not the kind of Faith that the Reformers believed in. I guess I would protest against an Easy Believism (Charles Finney) type of Christianity alongside with you if I have discerned that particular issue correctly. OSAS Christianity that only requires a profession of faith without the suffering of transformation is probably a dead faith (James 2). Jesus promised that we will have tribulation in this world, because we are not all this world. Without tribulation, there is no salvation, maybe?
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mikeledes
Guest
I believe this passage is meant to emphasize God’s faithfulness and this passage is fulfilled in those elect for glory. I think the following is a good explanation of this passage:
**Does this verse then teach that one who begins in saving faith will inevitably continue in that faith until the “day of Christ Jesus?” The advocates of unconditional security are trying to squeeze far more from this verse than was intended by Paul. Paul was confident in the work of God being completed in the Philippians to whom he writes because he had every reason to believe that they would endure in the faith. Paul explains why he has such confidence in them: They have participated in the ministry of the gospel from the “first day until now.” (1:5) They have shared in grace with Paul in supporting his ministry and supporting him while in prison (1:7; 4:18, 19). Paul is also confident that God will complete his work in them because he is praying for them and trusting God on their behalf (1:3, 9-11).
Since Paul has every reason to believe that they will continue in the faith based on their track record he can express his confidence that God will continue to work in them since God cannot fail to work in believers. All believers who continue in the faith will see God’s work completed in them on the “day of Christ Jesus.” Paul is not guaranteeing that they will make it to glory but only expressing his personal confidence in them based on his own experience of their commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, Paul’s confidence is seen to be a cautious confidence in that he warns them to continue following his example of single minded commitment to the gospel of Christ lest they begin to focus instead on the things of this world and become enemies of the cross (3:17-19). Paul still expresses concern that he may yet return to them and not find them standing firm in Christ, and for that reason encourages them to continually conduct themselves in a manner worthy of the gospel (1:27). In verses 12-13 we see that Paul has grounds for confidence in them since they have “always” obeyed, and yet he admonishes them to continue to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” (2:12) If there destination was guaranteed there should be nothing for them to fear (cf. Rom. 11:19-22). Yet they must continue to “work out” their salvation by yielding to the working of God within them (2:13).
Philippians 2:12-13 gets to the heart of the matter and provides the primary context by which we should understand Paul’s comments in 1:3. God will complete His work in them but only as they continue to yield to that “working” within them. If they continue to yield to the work of God within them God will certainly bring that work to completion (perfect it) on “the day of Christ Jesus.” We cannot do this work in ourselves, God must do it. We cannot even yield to the work of God in us on our own, but we can do “all things through Him” who strengthens us. We are still called on to fearfully submit to God’s work and there is nothing in Paul’s words that would suggest that we cannot resist that work and fail to see it brought to perfection in us. In fact, Philippians 2:13 suggests just the opposite.**
arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/
To be continued…
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Mickey
Guest
Amen again my brother in Christ.
“Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
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ryanoneil
Guest
Yes
It puts us in communion with God. It definately teaches us that our faith rests on God. To trust him. To cooperate with his providence. And being in union, the Holy Spirit transforms us and conforms us more and more to Jesus. So that some how we are able to love the way Jesus loved us.
It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. This I command you: love one another. (John 15:16-17)
It allows us to be led by the Spirt and keeps us from falling back into the slavery of sin. Gal 5:16-25
So in a mystical way our prayer is the continuation of the petitions and prayers Jesus made. He prays in us and with us. Even though our prayers weren’t made at the time he gathered up all our petitions, once for all, and his cry on the Cross was heard by the Father. And being resurrected Jesus never ceases to intercede for us with the Father. (Heb 5:7-19; 7:25; 9:24-26)
And here we go again getting out of Phillipians and having this conversation.
But it sure is fun how it is all connected.
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mikeledes
Guest
I believe everything that happens happens in accordance with God’s will, whether he activley causes it or permits it. While God did not activley cause Satan’s fall - and Satan started out existence as a good angel - He permitted it to occur. I believe that those who enter eternal glory are there because God has ensured they would be there by giving them the gift of final perseverance. And those who fall from grace fall because God has permitted them to fall, as He did in the case of Satan and Adam.
God Bless,
Michael
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