Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Pier]

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. - Matt 16

Maybe “this rock” is the testimony of Peter’s that Jesus is the Christ?

Christ is telling Simon that he has spoken words that God the Father gave him to say. He then called him Peter (which to my understanding began the traditional practice of the Popes taking different names)…

 

[Reformed]

Christ is telling Simon that he has spoken words that God the Father gave him to say. He then called him Peter (which to my understanding began the traditional practice of the Popes taking different names)…

Thanks, I think I understand the claim of apostolic succession for Matthew 16. I just don’t believe it. I guess if I did, I would be Roman Catholic…oops I mean Catholic… oops…I’m already catholic.

 

[guanophore]

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. Your statement of “Catholics know that it is theirs to lose” is a statement of man’s sovereignity in salvation which is a humanistic concept. It robs God of His glory and boast in man for his portion of salvation.

Do you know anything about the concepts of humanism, where and when they originated? I think if you look into this, you will find that Catholic soteriology predates it for many centuries.

The fact that God has chosen to involve man in His plan of salvation is a reflection of His soverignity, not man’s. Mankind acting in accordance with God’s intention does not “rob” God, but glorifies Him. He is pleased to be glorified in his angels and saints. It is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom, and he is pleased when we receive it from Him. Our cooperation with His will for us does not make us into God, but makes us partakers in HIs divine nature.

 Do you believe salvation is 99% God and 1% man? If you answer yes, then you proclaim man is sovereign and God is not.

This is a logical fallacy. A faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.

There can only be one sovereign in this Universe. Is your apparent free will the final determining factor that will defeat God?

No. It is a reflection of God’s sovereignity that He created us to be able to choose whether we want to spend eternity with Him or not.

Is God trying to save you but needs your free will permission first (Rom 9)?

God chooses to allow us to decide if we wish to live or die. It does not make HIm less sovereign.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live …"

God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

. Since Roman Catholicism rejects the biblical doctrine of justification through imputation and forensic application, the Roman Catholic Christian cannot praise God for His grace in salvation because he does not know if God will save him from his sins.

Catholicism is not “Roman” and I would like it if you would refrain from using that term in this context. It seems clear you are using it in a pejorative sense. This is now the sixth time I have asked you.

Of course Catholics must reject the notion of “biblical doctrine”. Doctrine comes from Jesus, through the Apostles. It is not lifted out of the pages of scripture by cutting and pasting.

Catholics wrote the NT, that is why there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic teaching.

You have been misinformed about Catholicism. Catholics do know that God will save us from our sins. this is why Jesus died for us on the cross.

Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

Jesus gave himself up for us, so that He can present us to Himself in splendor.

Rom 5:9-11
" Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11 But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

We are saved by His blood, and we will be saved from the wrath of God.

In Roman Catholicism, there is no entering in the finished work of Christ, there is not sabbath rest found in Christ alone, there is no rejoicing in “God my savior” as proclaimed by the biblical Mary. IMO… Roman Catholicism is still in the dark ages. But what do I know?

Not much. You have been misinformed about Catholicisism. The doctrine of salvation was not composed in the middle ages, but by Jesus, in the first centrury,

Look to the finished work of Christ on your behalf to the glory of God alone and you too can rejoice in God the Rock your Savior. If I built my faith upon the rock of a man, then I too would not have much hope and assurance… and no praises to sing and proclaim to the world. There is no great good news without understanding the finished work of Christ.

On God rests my salvation and my glory;
my mighty rock, my refuge is God. - Pslam 62:7

And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, - Luke 1

 

[guanophore]

I don't understand how Roman Catholicism teaches....because I can't find it in the Scriptures.

Perhaps, if you are willing to come down off your arrogant high horse for a little bit, and are willing to be just a smidgen open minded, you might learn something.

One of the first things you might learn is that the Catholic doctrine comes from Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

Please use authorative revelation to back your personal opinion.

He was talking about the source of Catholic doctrine. I don’t believe you recognize any authoritative source, do you?

 

[guanophore]

Okay… so we know God is our Rock and notPeter.

No. what “we” know is that you seem to want to separate things that are not meant to be separated, like the Tradition from Scripture, and Peter from Christ. The reason Christ changed Simon’s name to Peter is that Jesus was grafting Peter into his own “rock” ness. It is not “and not”. It is both.

Now let’s discuss John 21. I’m not sure how you get apostolic succession with that. According to the author of John, he states that Jesus loved Him more than Peter.

John does not say that.

What we see in Jn. 21 is Jesus restoring Peter, and giving him the care of His flock.

It sure seemd that Peter was quite jealous of whom Jesus loved. .

How do you get that?

The most influential disciples are Paul and John… as it is written. Read the 13 epstiles of Paul and 5 books written by John. Then compare it with the two epsitles written by Peter and you will understand the truth (maybe).

This is worldly thinking. You are assessing this using the same carnal reasoning the Apostles did when they asked who was the “greatest”.

John 21:15-25

Jesus and Peter
15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. 18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who had been reclining at table close to him and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers [1] that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

The inferences you drew from here are not supported by the text itself.

 

[guanophore]

How can you write that salvation is 100% of God and proclaim free will at the same time? Doesn’t God need your free will cooperation to allow Him to save you?

God chooses to involve our free will. He does not need it.

Isn’t the deciding factor for a Roman Catholic Christian to make it to Heaven left up to himself?

Catholicism is not “Roman”. Every time you use this term, you have used it in a pejorative sense, putting down Catholics, and misrepresenting Catholic doctrine. I am asking you to stop using it. This is now my seventh request.

No. Catholicism does not teach that a Christian can “make it to heaven” by himself. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man can boast.

Doesn't the Roman Catholic Christian have the free will to partake in the Catholic sacraments with the exception of the infant?

THis question seems to imply that you erroneously believe that what “works” during sacraments is human will, devoid of grace.

 

[ryanoneil]

That’s a good question and don’t have an answer for you. The Book of Revelation is a difficult book, and might not be the best to get essential doctrine.

OK lets try and easier book. Jesus and Paul are talking about saved people.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (John 15:1-10)

Why is he warning them about losing their salvation? (if they’re already covered)

How does this relate to:

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. (Rom 11:20-21)

Why is he warning them about losing their salvation? (if they’re already covered)

Does this say anything about God factoring human free will into His sovereign will?

 

[guanophore]

That’s a good question and don’t have an answer for you. The Book of Revelation is a difficult book, and might not be the best to get essential doctrine. We both agree that Revelation is addressing specific churches, right?

Yes, and so are the letters of Paul. I appreciate your honesty in this response. You have noted one of the major ways in which Protestants (especially those of the Reformed tradition) read scripture differently than Catholics. Catholics read scripture in the light of apostolic teaching, and we give all the scripture equal weight.

 

[guanophore]

Petro…petra… Rock…rock… so that’s the only claim we have in Scripture for apostolic succession?

Not at all! Do you want to get onto apostolic succession? It is your thread, after all.

You asked how we were to know who was right, and I answered that the ones who have it right are those who are united with Peter. Peter was born Simon, bar Jona. When God revealed the Truth to him, Jesus changed his name. He looked right at him, and said “you are Peter”. whenever God changes someone’s name in scripture it denotes a calling and a drastic change in life direction.

Jesus goes on to say “upon this rock I will build”. We agree that Jesus is the Rock. We agree that the faith of Peter was a Rock. Jesus grafted Peter into His own rockness.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints use a very similar kind of verse to support their apostolic succession claim too. Here is their claim to fame:

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. - John 10

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. - Matt 16

Maybe “this rock” is the testimony of Peter’s that Jesus is the Christ? So, here is some Calvinism for you. Why did Jesus tells his disciples not tell no one that He is the Christ? And why did Jesus speak in parables according to the Scriptures?

If the “rock” referred only to the testimony (which I agree that it does), then why would He find it necessary to give Peter a new name? Do you think He was just having a frivolous mood?

Are the rest of these questions rhetorical? How derailed do you want the thread to get?

 

[Reformed]

Yes, and so are the letters of Paul. I appreciate your honesty in this response. You have noted one of the major ways in which Protestants (especially those of the Reformed tradition) read scripture differently than Catholics. Catholics read scripture in the light of apostolic teaching, and we give all the scripture equal weight.

Please don’'t misunderstand me. I stated that the book of Revelation is difficult to understand. I never stated or implied I have difficulites understanding the letters of Paul (by the grace of God). I would not create doctrines related to the gospel from the book of Revelation. It seems Ryan was attempting to do that through his quote of Revelation. The books of Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians are much better books to understand the great good news of God (gospel of grace) as compared to the book of Revelation.

It is also very important from my perspective to seperate my idea of Roman Catholic from catholic (universal). It is not made to offend, by to keep a doctrinal distinctive. Apostolic teaching is limited to the Apostles in the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with a claim of apostolic succession taught by Roman Catholicism and Mormonism.

 

[Reformed]

OK lets try and easier book. Jesus and Paul are talking about saved people.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (John 15:1-10)

Why is he warning them about losing their salvation? (if they’re already covered)

How does this relate to:

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. (Rom 11:20-21)

Why is he warning them about losing their salvation? (if they’re already covered)

Does this say anything about God factoring human free will into His sovereign will?

I understand the verses you posted. It is very important to go through an entire book, to understand these Scriptures in context to an entire book (and eventually all of Scirpture). Actually the book of John is the most Calvinistic book in the Bible. And the book of Romans is the apex on the teaching of the gospel. II find it very ironic that you quoted from John and Romans. Have you ever talked with a Mormon missionary? They will present similar verses taken out of context to support what they believe in regards to works righteousness and apostasy. They love to talk about James chapter 2. Let’s finish the book of Galatians and why don’t you choose the next Epistle of Paul. I don’t mind if you quote Scripture from other books while we go through an Epistle of Paul together. I’ll repost the last two chapter of Phillipians.

 

[Reformed]

Let’s finish these two chapters and hopefully Ryan will choose the next Epistle of Paul to work through together. Any additional comments on these two fina chapters?

Philippians 3:1-4:23

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ
3:1 Finally, my brothers, [1] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [2] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [3] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

4:1 Therefore, my brothers, [4] whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved.

Exhortation, Encouragement, and Prayer
2 I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. 3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, [5] help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

God’s Provision
10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. 11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

14 Yet it was kind of you to share [6] my trouble. 15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. 16 Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit. [7] 18 I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 20 To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Final Greetings
21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. 22 All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.

23 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

 

[Reformed]

guanophore:
Not at all! Do you want to get onto apostolic succession? It is your thread, after all.

You asked how we were to know who was right, and I answered that the ones who have it right are those who are united with Peter. Peter was born Simon, bar Jona. When God revealed the Truth to him, Jesus changed his name. He looked right at him, and said “you are Peter”. whenever God changes someone’s name in scripture it denotes a calling and a drastic change in life direction.

Jesus goes on to say “upon this rock I will build”. We agree that Jesus is the Rock. We agree that the faith of Peter was a Rock. Jesus grafted Peter into His own rockness.

If the “rock” referred only to the testimony (which I agree that it does), then why would He find it necessary to give Peter a new name? Do you think He was just having a frivolous mood?

Are the rest of these questions rhetorical? How derailed do you want the thread to get?

Saul to Paul, Abram to Abraham, Sari to Sarah, Peter to ?. I did not know Jesus addressed Peter by another name after the account recorded in Matthew 16.

 

[ryanoneil]

I understand the verses you posted. It is very important to go through an entire book, to understand these Scriptures in context to an entire book (and eventually all of Scirpture). Actually the book of John is the most Calvinistic book in the Bible. And the book of Romans is the apex on the teaching of the gospel.

Maybe you could explain the Calvinist understanding of those verses then. (I’ll look at Phillipians in the mean time)

II find it very ironic that you quoted from John and Romans. Have you ever talked with a Mormon missionary?

A time or two on this forum only.

They will present similar verses taken out of context to support what they believe in regards to works righteousness and apostasy. They love to talk about James chapter 2.

If you are implying that I’ve presented these verses out of context, then please explain how.

Let’s finish the book of Galatians and why don’t you choose the next Epistle of Paul. I don’t mind if you quote Scripture from other books while we go through an Epistle of Paul together. I’ll repost the last two chapter of Phillipians.

Didn’t you have another person already choosing. (or was that a different thread)

 

[Reformed]

Maybe you could explain the Calvinist understanding of those verses then. (I’ll look at Phillipians in the mean time)

A time or two on this forum only.

If you are implying that I’ve presented these verses out of context, then please explain how.

Didn’t you have another person already choosing. (or was that a different thread)

I want to make sure that you understand that Calvinism shouldn’t drive my understanding of the Scriptures. But, I do wear a pair of Calvinistic glasses without looking at commentaries in our discussions. I have no loyalty to Calvinism but find it to be the most faithful to the Scriptures at this point of my pilgrimage. I did pick another Catholic to choose the next book, but he never returned after his first post. I don’t think he knew what he was getting himself into. Some Catholics really do not want to read Scripture with Protestants… maybe we will contiminate their thinking? So, at the end of the day, please choose the next Epistle of Paul and post the chapters as you see fit. BTW…take the time to have the Mormon missionaries over your house…It will be a great blessing. When you debate the Mormon Christians, will you use Scripture or Sacred Tradition? You will have fun debating authority and apostolic succession with them.

 

[ryanoneil]

I mentioned these verses earlier and don’t remember getting a response. (I apologize if you did)

if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (3:11)

Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty. He hopes for salvation instead of thinking its a guarantee.

Why do you think that is?

It is not that I am eager for the gift; rather, I am eager for the profit that accrues to your account. (Phil 4:17)

I shared the Catholic understanding of this verse. What does it mean to you?

 

[Reformed]

I mentioned these verses earlier and don’t remember getting a response. (I apologize if you did)

if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (3:11)

Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty. He hopes for salvation instead of thinking its a guarantee.

Why do you think that is?

It is not that I am eager for the gift; rather, I am eager for the profit that accrues to your account. (Phil 4:17)

I shared the Catholic understanding of this verse. What does it mean to you?

Maybe all regenerate Christians must suffer for God’s transformation process? I think if a professer does not face tribulation as promised by Jesus, than that person needs to question if they were actually converted. Look at Paul again in Phillipians 1 in regards to being granted faith and suffering.

Only let your manner of life be worthy [8] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

We know salvation is a process… pressing ahead… and not fully obtain… we haven’t been rescused from this body of death in fullness… because we struggle with indwelling sin, right?

God’s Provision
10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. 11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. 12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. 13 I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

14 Yet it was kind of you to share [6] my trouble. 15 And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving, except you only. 16 Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit. [7] 18 I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 20 To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We know that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And as Christians, we know we can only do the works God prepared for us to do through Christ. And we know God will reward Christians for the work He prepared and enabled for them to do. It is all of grace. God is just going to reward Christians for the work that they did in Christ. The idea is that God crowns us for what He has done in us… grace upon grace.

The credit or reward has nothing to do with our justification or position, or legal standing before God. It only has to do with Heveanly rewards. To understand Protestant comments, you have to understand our mindset of justification through imputation. I understand the mindset of Roman Catholics with justification being final upon your copperation with the grace of God at the end of your pilgrimage. The Roman Catholic in he aparent fear is more worried about entering Heaven, in his transformaton process.

 

[cfrancis]

Maybe all regenerate Christians must suffer for God’s transformation process? I think if a professer does not face tribulation as promised by Jesus, than that person needs to question if they were actually converted. Look at Paul again in Phillipians 1 in regards to being granted faith and suffering.

Paul’s emphasis on suffering as a Christian permeates his writings:
Rom 8:
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, **if indeed we suffer with Him **so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that **the sufferings of this present **time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

2 Cor 1:
5 For just as **the sufferings of Christ are ours **in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:7
and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort.

Philippians 3:10
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

2 Thessalonians 1:5
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

2 Timothy 1:8
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

2 Timothy 2:3
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus

 

[Reformed]

Reformed;4299674:

Maybe all regenerate Christians must suffer for God’s transformation process? I think if a professer does not face tribulation as promised by Jesus, than that person needs to question if they were actually converted. Look at Paul again in Phillipians 1 in regards to being granted faith and suffering.

2 Cor 1:
5 For just as **the sufferings of Christ are ours **in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:7
and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort.

Philippians 3:10
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

2 Thessalonians 1:5
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

2 Timothy 1:8
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

2 Timothy 2:3
Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus

I’m not sure where we are disagreeing in suffering? Does a non-believer suffer like a believer. Why does Paul state that we are granted faith and suffering? Look at the book and the context. Who is causing the suffering, and who is receivng the suffering, and why?

This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have. - Phil 1