Reading Scripture together as Christians

[Ag_not]

Why don’t you debate on an all Protetstant Forum site and maybe that will enable you to be more charitable and graceful towards me. You don’t have to participate on these Bible Study threads.

Oh I tried that. You get booted off pretty quick, but not before they take the opportunity to tell you exactly what they think of your false religion - in terms I could never repeat here. Protestanism and charity and grace regarding discussions of faith are not words I would put together based on my experience of other faith boards.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What in the world are you talking about? This is a Catholic Forum debate site. Catholics reject sola scriptura and we all know that. My comments are posted in line with my faith. Why would I post Catholic Sacred Traditon to support what I comment? Just comment on the Scriptures that we are going through together with whatever source that you want to. Please give me the same liberty that I have given you. After-all, this is your home field, and not mine. Why don’t you debate on an all Protetstant Forum site and maybe that will enable you to be more charitable and graceful towards me. You don’t have to participate on these Bible Study threads.

I mention the “agreed” upon “rules” that you keep bringing up.

You have more than once made the assertion that the Bible is the sole authority and now say, “…are in line with my faith.” Bible, Church and oral tradition are in line with the Catholic faith.

In response to your repeated assertions of the Bible being the sole authority, I posted and stated the Catholic perspective of authority is scriptures, Church and oral tradtion, along with scriptures to support my comments. You won’t respond to those comments and even go to the length to tell me I am somehow “off topic”.

As for following scriptures you’re going through, I came in and read a few posts and did direct responses to your posts. If I’m off topic, it was in response to your off topic posts…at least that’s how I see it.

I have not tried to be uncharitable with you. In fact, I have carefully worded my comments to be a part of the discussion and stay within the guidelines of charitability. I will apologize now if I have gone off track somehow. Please point out where I’ve been uncharitable and I will try to avoid those type mistakes in the future.

Now, please do not try to turn this into an “argument” to avoid an honest discussion. If you can’t refute comments being made, that’s ok to admit. It is not ok to continue your assertions without addressing the comments Catholics make to refute your assertions…afterall, as you say, this is a debate forum.

I have been to Protestant forums. I find no charitability on them. I have been told flat out, under no circumstances, will they even consider Catholicism to be Christian. They openly and blatantly attack everything about Catholicism, including personal attacks on Catholic posters.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Reformed,

I’ve gone back to page 45 of this thread in an attempt to see what scriptures you’re discussing(as you know, I’m in school and apologize that I do not have time to read through the entire thread).

In your post #675 you referenced Galatians 1.
In your post #677 you referenced Ephesians 4.
In your post #679 you referenced John 18:38.
In your post #689 you referenced 1 Timothy 3:15 and Jude 3.
In your post #690 you named all the books of the Protestant version of the Bible.
In your post #706 you referenced 2 Corinthians 11:4 and 11:13, Matthew 28:5, 24:24, Mark 13:6 and 13:22.

Please explain the rules of staying with the scriptures being discussed, as I can’t see a “pattern” to follow based on your posts.

I was not trying to derail the thread, as I stated, I was only responding to your assertion that the Bible is the sole authority for Protestants. I responded by stating the Catholic perspective of authority being scriptures, Church and oral tradition (inadvertently, I left out Christ with the assumption He didn’t have to be named and was included in both our arguments) and I supplied scriptures to support my comments. Guiding us in this discussion the way you have, has appearances of avoiding answering the question, “Where does the teaching the Bible is the sole authority come from?” I still feel you shouldn’t be making your assertions as fact unless you’re going to address our assertions and scriptures supplied.

With your posts listed above, I’m sure you can see my confusion in thinking you were holding Catholics to different guidelines for this “Bible study”.

I’d like to also add, it’s hard to use “snippets” of scriptures to discuss the Bible. It’s what causes much of the “taken out of context” arguments.

Remember, I’ve said before, to understand a verse in context, one must read the whole chapter. To understand a chapter in context, one must read the whole book. To understand a whole book in context, one must read the whole New Testament. To understand the New Testament in context, one must read the Old Testament.

Off to another evening of school, will check in when I get home (late tonight).

 

[ryanoneil]

Who confers distinction upon you? What do you possess that you have not received? But if you have received it, why are you boasting as if you did not receive it? (1 Cor 4:7)

Here’s a quote from St Augustine that fits this verse. “Men are always looking for some good in thier wills that is truly theirs rather than a gift received from God. It is unimaginable how any such thing could be discovered.”

And in the next few verses Paul is very ironic calling them wise and prosperous when he means the opposite. (ignorant and impoverished)

You are already satisfied; you have already grown rich; you have become kings without us! Indeed, I wish that you had become kings, so that we also might become kings with you. (1 Cor 4:8)

Paul contrasts his own sufferings with the Corinthians’ illusion that they have passed beyond the folly of the passion and have already reached the condition of glory.

For as I see it, God has exhibited us apostles as the last of all, like people sentenced to death, since we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and human beings alike. (1 Cor 4:9)

They refuse to embrace the foolishness of Christ and their pride shows how petty their problems are compaired to the apostles, who he compares to condemned criminals who are publicly disgraced and executed.

We are fools on Christ’s account, but you are wise in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in disrepute. To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are poorly clad and roughly treated, we wander about homeless and we toil, working with our own hands. When ridiculed, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we respond gently. We have become like the world’s rubbish, the scum of all, to this very moment. (1 Cor 4:10-13)

Paul sort of puts them in the setting of the beatitudes and the woes. He puts the apostles with those whom the beatitudes promise future relief (Luke 6:20-23) and places the Corinthians with those whom the woes threaten with future undoing. (Luke 6:24-26). They have lost sight of the fact that the reversal is predicted for the future.

 

[guanophore]

Does everyone understand that there are two central issues with our division of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism?

1. Authority - how does God reveal Himself to us

No, Reformed. I don’t think the issue of authority has to do with how God reveals HImself to us. I think authority has to do with who Jesus left in charge of the Church.

1. The Gospel or the great good news of God. We have two mutually exclusive proclamations and understanding of the gospel because we have mutually exclusive beliefs on the bibilical doctrine of justification. How do we understand the true biblical doctrine of justification, through Scripture alone or through official Roman Catholic teaching. Can we all agree, that they are not the same gospel?

I beg of you, Reformed. take some of your own advice about humility, and read what the Church actually teaches about justification by grace. You are fighting a strawman here. You have been wrongly informed about what the Catholic Church teaches.

Do we now see what caused the Protestant Reformation? Things have not changed in 500 years in regards to these two central issues.

Sorry, Reformed, but you are wrong on all counts.

 

[ryanoneil]

I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (1 Cor 4:14-15)

Paul relates to them like a spiritual father who brought them the gospel. The OT principles carry over into the New Covenant. Christ, our high priest, ordains men to the ministry of spiritual fatherhood.

to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the holy Spirit. (Rom 15:16)

Then Paul reminds him of what he just said in 4:6.

Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church. (1 Cor 4:16-17)

Then he talks about authority, and the intervention he might have to make if they keep thinking they have fully arrived.

Some have become inflated with pride, as if I were not coming to you. But I will come to you soon, if the Lord is willing, and I shall ascertain not the talk of these inflated people but their power. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a gentle spirit? (1 Cor 4:18-21)

He gives the trouble makers a stern warning that he would rather avoid a confrontation when he arrives.

 

[Reformed]

…

Just a reminder to all who are participating, I no longer communicate with this person. Do we have an ignore feature on this forum site?

 

[Reformed]

I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (1 Cor 4:14-15)

Paul relates to them like a spiritual father who brought them the gospel. The OT principles carry over into the New Covenant. Christ, our high priest, ordains men to the ministry of spiritual fatherhood.

to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the holy Spirit. (Rom 15:16)

Then Paul reminds him of what he just said in 4:6.

Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me. For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church. (1 Cor 4:16-17)

Then he talks about authority, and the intervention he might have to make if they keep thinking they have fully arrived.

Some have become inflated with pride, as if I were not coming to you. But I will come to you soon, if the Lord is willing, and I shall ascertain not the talk of these inflated people but their power. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a gentle spirit? (1 Cor 4:18-21)

He gives the trouble makers a stern warning that he would rather avoid a confrontation when he arrives.

Thanks Ryan, that’s very good. Please continue with the Bible Study.

Just a reminder to all, if our comments are taken from other sources, we need to reference those sources to our comments. Bible Studies are very profitable in growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[ryanoneil]

Thanks Ryan, that’s very good. Please continue with the Bible Study.

Just a reminder to all, if our comments are taken from other sources, we need to reference those sources to our comments. Bible Studies are very profitable in growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Before moving on, would you be interested in sharing your thoughts on chapter 4?

 

[Reformed]

Before moving on, would you be interested in sharing your thoughts on chapter 4?

1 Corinthians 4

The Ministry of Apostles
4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, [1] that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! 9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute. 11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; 13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.

14 I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 17 That is why I sent [2] you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, [3] as I teach them everywhere in every church. 18 Some are arrogant, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people but their power. 20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power. 21 What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?

I think your comments cover chapter 4.

 

[guanophore]

Just a reminder to all who are participating, I no longer communicate with this person. Do we have an ignore feature on this forum site?

If you ever were communicating, then you would have read the instructions I posted on how to use the ignore feature.

You have refused to communicate with me from the beginning, and did not like when I pointed out to you that you were making bigoted remarks, and that you were suffering from misinformation about what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

You also did not apparently heed my multiple warnings about not following the forum rules.

You have made it clear from the beginning that you are not here to have a discussion or to communicate, but to “preach the gospel to you who are in Rome”.