Reading the Bible for Catholics

[pocohombre]

That is what I meant to say when I was talking about my former Protestant beliefs but now I realize that we shouldn’t use private interpretation but the Church should interpret scripture for:

2 Peter 1:20-21

I don’t trust the individual interpretation of Scripture by individual men or trying to hear the will of God from a mans mouth but only the True Church which is the “pillar and bullwark of truth”

And who makes up the true church ? Do not individual men make up the church ,a council ,a magisterium One can not negate personal revelation .It starts somewhere and ends somewhere .It begins with everybody and ends with evrybody. Individual is not necesarily “private”. Job 32:6…“I am young and ye are very old,wherefore I was afraid to speak my opinion,days should speak and munltitude of years should teach wisdom BUT there is a spirit in man and the inspiriation of the Almighty giveth them understanding,… great men are not always wise neither do the aged understand judgement, therefore I shall give you my opinion, for I am full of the matter, I burst,the spirit in me constrained me but now I speak, the spirit of God hath made me, his breath gives me life…I will speak”… Elihu was right on.

 

[johnnyc176]

One can not negate personal revelation .It starts somewhere and ends somewhere

Yes one can…this one ended badly…

patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/05/ho-lee-cow-2.html

 

[mymamamary]

**Am I allowed to ask the Holy Spirit what He wants to say to me through a particular passage? I don’t want to dogmatically interpret anything, but I do want to gain spiritual truths for myself and how it pertains to me personally. Sorry to hijack the thread but am I allowed to do this? **

 

[Della]

**Am I allowed to ask the Holy Spirit what He wants to say to me through a particular passage? I don’t want to dogmatically interpret anything, but I do want to gain spiritual truths for myself and how it pertains to me personally. Sorry to hijack the thread but am I allowed to do this? **

I think it’s in line with what the OP is asking. And the answer is of course we can do this. Doing this is a part of Lectio Divina (see my previous post for the link). Dive right into Scripture to see what God has in it for you–the water’s fine.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I really enjoyed this series if you want to walk along with Dr. Scott Hahn…

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622

Our Father’s Plan.
This is where I saw how God was building building building until Christ came. For example…

Adam - God established the marriage covenant
Noah - the household covenant
Abraham - the tribal covenant
Moses - a national covenant
David - a national kingdom covenant
Christ - the world wide covenant which He built within the Catholic Church

 

[johnnyc176]

**Am I allowed to ask the Holy Spirit what He wants to say to me through a particular passage? I don’t want to dogmatically interpret anything, but I do want to gain spiritual truths for myself and how it pertains to me personally. Sorry to hijack the thread but am I allowed to do this? **

Yes…post 17 has some very good suggestions.

 

[landon13]

I really enjoyed this series if you want to walk along with Dr. Scott Hahn…

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622

Our Father’s Plan.
This is where I saw how God was building building building until Christ came. For example…

Adam - God established the marriage covenant
Noah - the household covenant
Abraham - the tribal covenant
Moses - a national covenant
David - a national kingdom covenant
Christ - the world wide covenant which He built within the Catholic Church

Thanks for sharing this! This will be a good study to do during the long monotonous days of summer.

Blessings!

 

[NHInsider]

**Am I allowed to ask the Holy Spirit what He wants to say to me through a particular passage? I don’t want to dogmatically interpret anything, but I do want to gain spiritual truths for myself and how it pertains to me personally. Sorry to hijack the thread but am I allowed to do this? **

Reading all four gospels almost turned me into a protestant, I needed help afterwards with purpagtory, salvation, mediator. So be very careful and read bible with supervison.

I think it’s in line with what the OP is asking. And the answer is of course we can do this. Doing this is a part of Lectio Divina (see my previous post for the link). Dive right into Scripture to see what God has in it for you–the water’s fine.

Can’t ever spend too much time immersed in God’s Word, so read and study away! And how terrific to be able to access the original languages. (Did you know that back in 1898 Pope Leo granted 300 days’ indulgence for 15 minutes of devout reading of Scripture? So much for “the Catholic Church forbade laypeople reading the Bible . . .”)

Absolutely, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you is just the right approach. That’s a big reason Jesus promised to send Him, to lead us into all truth.

The thing about “personal interpretation” is this - if you read something that seems to you to be contradictory to what you think the teaching of the Church is, ask! Ask here, or ask your pastor, or do some research and see what the Early Church Fathers wrote . . . Possibly, your understanding of the Church’s teaching is incorrect (especially if your last religious education class was in the 5th grade). Possibly it’s your understanding of that passage of Scripture. Or possibly, even likely, you’re reading one of the many passages which have many layers of meaning, about which scholars and saints have been talking and writing for years. There are only a very few passages about which the Church has said “this is the definitive interpretation of this passage.” (example - in John 6:55 when Jesus said “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink,” He did not mean “eating my flesh is a metaphor for studying the Bible and drinking my blood is a metaphor for spending time in prayer.”)

The real caveat is this - if you’re reading along, and you suddenly have some “insight,” in which you “realize” that the meaning of a verse or passage is something new and different, something no one ever noticed before in the history of the Church - or at least, in the first 1500 years of that history - ask yourself 1) Why did Jesus, who promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would remind them of His teaching and guide them into understanding everything that they would need to know, allow His faithful to get it wrong for so many centuries? and 2) Why did the Holy Spirit suddenly choose YOU to reveal this previously unknown truth to?

An awful lot of people would have been spared a great deal of heartache, and possibly eternal damnation, if certain people had taken a dose of humility along with their private Bible reading.

Sally

 

[NHInsider]

And who makes up the true church ? Do not individual men make up the church ,a council ,a magisterium One can not negate personal revelation .It starts somewhere and ends somewhere .It begins with everybody and ends with evrybody. Individual is not necesarily “private”. Job 32:6…“I am young and ye are very old,wherefore I was afraid to speak my opinion,days should speak and munltitude of years should teach wisdom BUT there is a spirit in man and the inspiriation of the Almighty giveth them understanding,… great men are not always wise neither do the aged understand judgement, therefore I shall give you my opinion, for I am full of the matter, I burst,the spirit in me constrained me but now I speak, the spirit of God hath made me, his breath gives me life…I will speak”… Elihu was right on.

Elihu’s point is that just because the three “friends” are older than he is, doesn’t mean they’re wiser. Then he tells Job he’s all wrong about God and that he (Job) isn’t innocent despite his protestations. Then God shows up and says “my servant Job spoke rightly.” Interesting, but irrelevant to the present discussion.

The trouble with “individual interpretation” is that if the Holy Spirit is guiding all those individuals, He is guiding them into all kinds of completely contradictory interpretations, each of which the individual fervently believes to be Truth. Which means the Holy Spirit must be lying to most of them. Either that, or Jesus is not able to keep His promises to those who believe in Him. Both of those are blasphemous propositions. The doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture is one of the glaring weaknesses of Protestantism.

The Church is made up of individuals, yes, but as St. Paul taught, the Church is the Body of Christ, and the bulwark and foundation of truth. Christ Himself promised to build and preserve His Church against the wiles and snares of the evil one. He chose, trained, ordained and commissioned the Apostles to preach the gospel. He said to the Apostles “who hears you, hears Me.” So when the Church teaches, it is teaching what He taught. What do you think is happening in Acts 15? Paul and Barnabas raise this intractable question, and the apostles come together to hash it out, and when they’re done, they issue a decree invoking the authority of the Holy Spirit to say THIS is God’s directive. The notion of individual people figuring out the faith for themselves is an utterly modern concept, and the fruit of it is pretty obvious.

(It’s interesting to note that when Pope Benedict published his books after he became Pope, he made a point of saying “these are my thoughts and reflections, not official doctrine.” Those are the interpretations of an individual - a very highly educated individual who spent a lifetime studying Scripture, but an individual. He wanted to be sure that we understood the difference between that role and the role of the steward of the Head of the Body.)

Sally

 

[jesuspsr]

Though I was born into a Catholic household and received the sacraments at an early age, my parents left the Church and started hopping from religion to religion in an effort to find a “solution” to their marital problems (it wasn’t religion that ended up being the source of their problems, it was their lack of devotion to one another…but that’s another story for another time).

Short end of the story, I ended up stuck in a Kingdom Hall at age 17, surrounded by Jehovah’s Witnesses until I was able to “escape” later in my 20s.

In the self-assured shadows of the Watchtower we read and “devoured” the Bible in a very ego-assuring way that made us feel nobody had more to study about Scripture than we did. But I went further than most.

I also learned the original languages like you did—and I thought I knew more than anyone else in any other religion could as a result—even though I was from a Jewish background where Hebrew is a staple, and of course growing up in a Catholic household I had a good foundation on Latin (studying koine Greek led to my seeing a need for quick escape from the Watchtower more than anything). In reality the Witnesses are against learning the original languages in the manner I did because it involved learning from scholars (the JW religion has no scholars).

Anyway, when I returned to the Church I ended up reading and studying the text more than ever. I thought that it would just be “devotional” reading like you mention, but it turns out nothing can be further from the truth. And I also learned how lacking I was in my understanding of the original tongues.

There is so much Scripture readings to study in just day-to-day worship in the Church, more than I realized as a Witness. Now I make sure I keep up with the daily texts for Mass (not just Sunday), pray the Liturgy of the Hours (which is a four-week cycle of praying the Psalms as well as texts from the Scriptures and the Church Fathers and saints), and get a balanced view of study from various Catholic Bible study editions (there are many schools of thought).

Boy I wish I could tell those JWs how wrong they are about Catholics and the Bible. The Witnesses only have 100 years of theology (and they just recently dismissed almost all of that century of teaching due to “new light” they claim to have received over the past five years, so that is all gone and waste of time).

There is 2000 years of Church interpretation, research, exegesis, textual and scholarly study that far exceeds anything any other Christian denomination can provide—in fact, nothing compares with it.

When you compare all the information and fine volumes of study as well as approaches such as Lectio Divina, you will likely come to realize what I did: Any church that claims it has more to study and more to offer in Biblical studies than Holy Mother Church is just kidding itself.

So if you enjoy Bible study—real scholarly study like I do—then you’ve come to the right place, the Catholic Church. And you are in for a great time—there’s more than devotional reading for Catholics out there—so much more!

Really enjoyed your post here. Welcome to CAF

 

[pocohombre]

Elihu’s point is that just because the three “friends” are older than he is, doesn’t mean they’re wiser. Then he tells Job he’s all wrong about God and that he (Job) isn’t innocent despite his protestations. Then God shows up and says “my servant Job spoke rightly.” Interesting, but irrelevant to the present discussion.

The trouble with “individual interpretation” is that if the Holy Spirit is guiding all those individuals, He is guiding them into all kinds of completely contradictory interpretations, each of which the individual fervently believes to be Truth. Which means the Holy Spirit must be lying to most of them. Either that, or Jesus is not able to keep His promises to those who believe in Him. Both of those are blasphemous propositions. The doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture is one of the glaring weaknesses of Protestantism.

The Church is made up of individuals, yes, but as St. Paul taught, the Church is the Body of Christ, and the bulwark and foundation of truth. Christ Himself promised to build and preserve His Church against the wiles and snares of the evil one. He chose, trained, ordained and commissioned the Apostles to preach the gospel. He said to the Apostles “who hears you, hears Me.” So when the Church teaches, it is teaching what He taught. What do you think is happening in Acts 15? Paul and Barnabas raise this intractable question, and the apostles come together to hash it out, and when they’re done, they issue a decree invoking the authority of the Holy Spirit to say THIS is God’s directive. The notion of individual people figuring out the faith for themselves is an utterly modern concept, and the fruit of it is pretty obvious.

(It’s interesting to note that when Pope Benedict published his books after he became Pope, he made a point of saying “these are my thoughts and reflections, not official doctrine.” Those are the interpretations of an individual - a very highly educated individual who spent a lifetime studying Scripture, but an individual. He wanted to be sure that we understood the difference between that role and the role of the steward of the Head of the Body.)

Sally

My friend there are problems with any kind of interpretations, be it “personal” or by committee /magisterium, or leaving it up to to a church. A little bit like let every man be (is) a liar only God is true(perfect). All things can be problematic. Just because they are does not mean you abandon the method. Bottom line is somewhere you better be relying on divine revelation if not we are not resting ,depending on His salvation. Divine revelation is still needed even to pick the right church, especially if you claim them as your interpreter of truth and you place your faith in that.

 

[NHInsider]

My friend there are problems with any kind of interpretations, be it “personal” or by committee /magisterium, or leaving it up to to a church. A little bit like let every man be (is) a liar only God is true(perfect). All things can be problematic. Just because they are does not mean you abandon the method. Bottom line is somewhere you better be relying on divine revelation if not we are not resting ,depending on His salvation. Divine revelation is still needed even to pick the right church, especially if you claim them as your interpreter of truth and you place your faith in that.

There is only one Church. It is the one that Jesus established, to which He delegated His authority and gave the promise of the Spirit. It is the body that determined the contents of the Bible, and is uniquely able to interpret it. It may appear to be splintered, but it cannot be, for Christ, who prayed that His followers would be one as He and the Father are one, cannot be divided, and it is His Body. (1 Cor. 1:13)

Sally

 

[pablope]

Bottom line is somewhere you better be relying on divine revelation if not we are not resting ,depending on His salvation. Divine revelation is still needed even to pick the right church, especially if you claim them as your interpreter of truth and you place your faith in that.

But poco…there is a way to know, isn’t it?

The Bible gives us a guide:

1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. … 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And St. Paul lived this advise from John:

Galatians 2:2

2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

 

[pocohombre]

Elihu’s point is that just because the three “friends” are older than he is, doesn’t mean they’re wiser. Then he tells Job he’s all wrong about God and that he (Job) isn’t innocent despite his protestations. Then God shows up and says “my servant Job spoke rightly.” Interesting, but irrelevant to the present discussion.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The point was much more I might say. It was not an age thing only.The aged were wrong .Wisdom of years was lacking or lost. The difference was divine inspiration in having the right opinion,irrespective of age. Actually I read it that Elihu spoke God’s words.Elihu was not reprimanded at all. God actually says the same thing as Elihu and then some. You make it seem Elihu was wrong I think,which of course then make it all irrelevant to our discussion. If Elihu was right on, then it is quite valid to our discussion, that divine revelation leads to right opinion,irrespective of “age/years”(status /position?).I believe this can be applied to bible “reading”. Notice Elihu was quite humble,listened to all,weighed all,but with the help of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think this is a Catholic or Protestant thing.I believe a Catholic brother/sister (della and mymamamary) earlier said the Holy Spirit aids us all in bible “reading”.

The trouble with “individual interpretation” is that if the Holy Spirit is guiding all those individuals,

Again it is not private or individual interpretation,as your words state, it is the Holy Spirit

He is guiding them into all kinds of completely contradictory interpretations, each of which the individual fervently believes to be Truth. Which means the Holy Spirit must be lying to most of them. Either that, or Jesus is not able to keep His promises to those who believe in Him. Both of those are blasphemous propositions.

Yes, that is how the CC argument goes against this divine revelation,and a Church magisterium is the perfect solution. Understand, thank you ,You stated it well, just disagree in it’s logic. No one is lying. That is like me saying your Church/magisteium paradigm/model is said to give out perfect truth to the Body but if it does then why is there imperfect varied results amongst individual members of that Body ? Both our “models” start out with perfect source with varied results. I say it is not the fault of the model but in the recipient, and I would think you might agree. For instance Cain and Abel received the same truth form Adam and Eve yet they had varied, actually opposite results in their children. Was there something wrong with the method of instruction on how to please God? Were Adam and Eve blasphemous,making the word of God to no avail to their son Cain?..No one is lying or being blasphemous with either “model”. As I stated earlier, let every man be a liar, let every model be imperfect, only God is true and faithful . ,thru your model and mine, His will is being done in CC and other churches, despite the log in our eyes. His perfect truth is marching on.

The doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture is one of the glaring weaknesses of Protestantism.

Yes, as one Jesuit is said to have quipped during the reformation chaos," if it weren’t for that bible…". Please I mean no offense, read it in a Catholic book on Jesuit history. Actually perspicuity is an early Catholic thing from what I have read. "Therefore since we were too weak to find truth by pure reason, and for that cause we needed the authority of Holy Writ, I now began to believe that in no wise would you have given such surpassing authority throughout the whole world to that Scripture,unless you wished that both through it you believed in and through it you be sought…that authority(scripture) seemed worthy ,easy for everyone to read …and accessible to all men Augustine Confessions book 11 ch2. No, Protestantism I think says scripture is not transparent and plain to understand because of clarity of presentation. In fact we might say God’s truth is a mystery ,unless the spirit of man is enlightened by God (think Elihu) or even “fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge and understanding”. Hence my first words to the thread opener, that one must be born again to understand scripture. The carnal mind is at enmity with God and can not understand His ways(words). As Paul says, it is not a mystery to us, but to the world.

 

[pocohombre]

The notion of individual people figuring out the faith for themselves is an utterly modern concept, and the fruit of it is pretty obvious.

Again, no one is figuring out for themselves, but as scripture says be ye full convinced (by God). The notion that we don’t figure anything out for ourselves but leave it up to a council does not or should happen either .I agree that the fruits of both those extremes have been seen and are not pleasant. Which council ? Don’t you think the Orthodox or Coptics or this or that church have councils? The council you cited was for a “new scenario”, not necessarily on how to interpret scripture, but how to apply it. We are talking here about the Holy Spirit guiding an individual when reading Holy Writ. Augustine states that the Church or a preacher and Holy Writ are filled with Him or are Him (Writ) AND must be understood by the receiever/ hearer/individual with the His help. That is the preacher speaks inspired words ,the Church acts in that inspiration and the hearer understands by inspiration. .Jesus is our teacher. Everybody must be one on one with Him, even as we are yet all part of that One Body. It is not either or but all together. Augustine in Confessions seems to say he would have never been Saint without divine inspiration on a personal level ,nor without a preacher (was it Jerome or Ambrose?) who also was filled with the Holy Ghost, nor without a Church standing in truth and power of the Holy Spirit, nor Holy Writ.

 

[pocohombre]

There is only one Church. It is the one that Jesus established, to which He delegated His authority and gave the promise of the Spirit. It is the body that determined the contents of the Bible, and is uniquely able to interpret it. It may appear to be splintered, but it cannot be, for Christ, who prayed that His followers would be one as He and the Father are one, cannot be divided, and it is His Body. (1 Cor. 1:13)

Sally

And are you strong enough by pure reason to figure out just what or which is the true church? It is only pertinent in that it ties in to reading the bible with understanding, the thread topic.

 

[Mintaka]

If you’re going to mention St. Augustine, you should go read his book on the interpretation of the Scriptures (Christian Doctrine aka On Christian Doctrine). It’s very helpful.

(And the excursion in the middle into semantics and linguistics theory is worth reading. Even if it seems to go off on a tangent for quite a while, when he does come back around to the subject it turns out to have been helpful. And it’s interesting in itself, of course.)

 

[Michael_Francis]

i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic–Alert.gif
12 posts removed as off topic. Get back on topic and stay there please.

 

[pocohombre]

But poco…there is a way to know, isn’t it?

The Bible gives us a guide:

1 John 4
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. … 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And what is their message, to listen to ? Listen to the apostles say you must believe in the Immaculate conception,must? or listen to them say you Must believe in her Assumption? Listen to them say you must fast 3 hours before receiving the Eucharist? What was their main message ? What was required of the new non-jewsih ,gentile brothers and sisters? Vs.2,3 has the answer specific to your quote:" hereby ye know the Spirit of God:every spirit that confesseth that Christ is come in the flesh is of God. Everyone that confesseth not that he came in the flesh is not of God". I’ve been listening and believe he came in the flesh ,where once i did not. In this and several other main doctrines we are united, truly catholic, by anyone truly considered a christian.The other things I mentioned are fine, for Catholics but not all. I would not bind you to my practices peculiar to myself that are not foundational,as clearly some things are. So john 4 is quite universal, not as specific as some would like it, partly leading to division …ooops, just read the moderator’s post ,sorry, back to bible reading topic.Thanks

 

[pocohombre]

Can’t ever spend too much time immersed in God’s Word, so read and study away! And how terrific to be able to access the original languages. (Did you know that back in 1898 Pope Leo granted 300 days’ indulgence for 15 minutes of devout reading of Scripture? So much for “the Catholic Church forbade laypeople reading the Bible . . .”)

Absolutely, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you is just the right approach. That’s a big reason Jesus promised to send Him, to lead us into all truth.

The thing about “personal interpretation” is this - if you read something that seems to you to be contradictory to what you think the teaching of the Church is, ask! Ask here, or ask your pastor, or do some research and see what the Early Church Fathers wrote . . . Possibly, your understanding of the Church’s teaching is incorrect (especially if your last religious education class was in the 5th grade). Possibly it’s your understanding of that passage of Scripture. Or possibly, even likely, you’re reading one of the many passages which have many layers of meaning, about which scholars and saints have been talking and writing for years. There are only a very few passages about which the Church has said “this is the definitive interpretation of this passage.” (example - in John 6:55 when Jesus said “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink,” He did not mean “eating my flesh is a metaphor for studying the Bible and drinking my blood is a metaphor for spending time in prayer.”)

The real caveat is this - if you’re reading along, and you suddenly have some “insight,” in which you “realize” that the meaning of a verse or passage is something new and different, something no one ever noticed before in the history of the Church - or at least, in the first 1500 years of that history - ask yourself 1) Why did Jesus, who promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would remind them of His teaching and guide them into understanding everything that they would need to know, allow His faithful to get it wrong for so many centuries? and 2) Why did the Holy Spirit suddenly choose YOU to reveal this previously unknown truth to?

An awful lot of people would have been spared a great deal of heartache, and possibly eternal damnation, if certain people had taken a dose of humility along with their private Bible reading.

Sally

May I add that when reading scripture and it seems different to current teaching, it may have been “thought of” earlier than with reformers of 1500’s. Some things were challenged in 8-9th century by Catholics, some in 12,13 th century, some in 4th century etc.It is a good generalization that the big reformation happened 1500s but I doubt you will take on everything they challenged. But bits and pieces of “questions” is what may come your way, that have been around way before 1500’s. For sure if you ask, you will get an answer. Pretty much everything has already been discussed down thru the ages with recorded answers,from both sides of any issue. A good Catholic abides by the churches final decree on the matter. BUT,as I was once told, the bigger issue is not to study the bible, but let the bible study you.“Show me Lord if there be any wicked way in me, but gently ,lest I am blown away” .This is quite a universal challenge for all believers.