Readings: Ordo or Sacramentary?

[Daprato]

Once in a while the Ordo will specify a certain Mass and set of readings, while the Sacramentary will specify a different set of readings for the same Mass. Which does one follow – the Ordo or the Sacramentary in such cases?

 

[AJV]

Once in a while the Ordo will specify a certain Mass and set of readings, while the Sacramentary will specify a different set of readings for the same Mass. Which does one follow – the Ordo or the Sacramentary in such cases?

Could you give an example, please?

If the Mass readings are taken from a Common then conceivably there could be multiple choices for the readings.

(Also, does the Sacramentary have readings in it?)

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Once in a while the Ordo will specify a certain Mass and set of readings, while the Sacramentary will specify a different set of readings for the same Mass. Which does one follow – the Ordo or the Sacramentary in such cases?

I would go with the Ordo. The *Lectionary *is the standard for all places and times. The Ordo adapts this standard to a particular diocese for a particular year.

Note that the Sacramentary is the book of prayers, which is usually on the Altar. The readings are in the Lectionary, which is usually on the Ambo. Together they form the Roman Missal. **

 

[Daprato]

Could you give an example, please?

If the Mass readings are taken from a Common then conceivably there could be multiple choices for the readings.

(Also, does the Sacramentary have readings in it?)

Sadly I cannot because I don’t have either document in front of me. No, the Sacramentary does not have readings in it, but different commons will often specify readings that do not match the Ordo.

The reason I ask now is that I am looking at the Collection of Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Ordo will often suggest a Mass from this special Sacramentary (which is not in the regular Sacramentary) for Saturday mornings. The confusion arises because this Marian Sacramentary (yes, it’s approved) comes with its own special Lectionary. The Ordo will suggest a Mass from this Marian Sacramentary (only a suggestion – any Mass of the BVM may be chosen) while also providing the daily reading which does not match the special Marian Sacramentary’s direction.

 

[benedictgal]

Sadly I cannot because I don’t have either document in front of me. No, the Sacramentary does not have readings in it, but different commons will often specify readings that do not match the Ordo.

The reason I ask now is that I am looking at the Collection of Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Ordo will often suggest a Mass from this special Sacramentary (which is not in the regular Sacramentary) for Saturday mornings. The confusion arises because this Marian Sacramentary (yes, it’s approved) comes with its own special Lectionary. The Ordo will suggest a Mass from this Marian Sacramentary (only a suggestion – any Mass of the BVM may be chosen) while also providing the daily reading which does not match the special Marian Sacramentary’s direction.

In our diocese, we almost always go by the Ordo, unless something special is being planned (Red Mass for lawyers, Diocesan anniversary Mass, etc). The Marian Sacramentary is designed for devotionals dedicated to the Blessed Mother. However, I don’t think that it supercedes Sundays and Feasts and Solemnities of Our Lord. I think that the Mairan Sacramentary is designed for Saturdays and special Marian feasts. Of course, I could be wrong, but that’s who I’ve always understood it.

Now, as other posters have indicated, the Sacrramentary is the Roman Missal that the celebrant uses for the Mass. It does not have readings, only the prayers and propers. It has common Mass prayers for the Blessed Mother and Sts. Peter and Paul, among others, as well as ritual prayers (weddings, funerals, etc). But, readings are not included.

I’ll give you an example of how to best use the Ordo. About 10 days ago, the Church celebrated the Feast of the Dedication of the St. John Lateran Basilica. Now, if you were to go to the section marked feasts of Saints (or similar wording), when you flip over the November 9th, you’re not going to find it because there is no such saint named John Lateran. Now go to the Ordo and it will tell you that the propers for the Mass are those for the anniversary of the dedication of a church (outside). Our PV looked at the “saints” category of the Sacramentary and couldn’t find St. John Lateran’s basilica. However, he did not notice that I had already placed the Sacramentary at the proper heading. After a while, it dawned upon him that we had pointed him in the right direction.

 

[Daprato]

In our diocese, we almost always go by the Ordo, unless something special is being planned (Red Mass for lawyers, Diocesan anniversary Mass, etc). The Marian Sacramentary is designed for devotionals dedicated to the Blessed Mother. However, I don’t think that it supercedes Sundays and Feasts and Solemnities of Our Lord. I think that the Mairan Sacramentary is designed for Saturdays and special Marian feasts. Of course, I could be wrong, but that’s who I’ve always understood it.

Hold on a minute. I said the Ordo often suggests a Mass from the Marian Sacramentary while also (obviously) providing the readings for the day. The whole point is that the readings for the day per the Ordo/Lectionary do not match the Marian Sacramentary – NOR do they match the standard Sacramentary at times.

Now, as other posters have indicated, **the Sacrramentary is the Roman Missal **that the celebrant uses for the Mass. It does not have readings, only the prayers and propers. It has common Mass prayers for the Blessed Mother and Sts. Peter and Paul, among others, as well as ritual prayers (weddings, funerals, etc). But, readings are not included.

It’s not the Roman Missal. The Sacramentary and the Lectionary combined is the Roman Missal.

I’ll give you an example of how to best use the Ordo. About 10 days ago, the Church celebrated the Feast of the Dedication of the St. John Lateran Basilica. Now, if you were to go to the section marked feasts of Saints (or similar wording), when you flip over the November 9th, you’re not going to find it because there is no such saint named John Lateran. Now go to the Ordo and it will tell you that the propers for the Mass are those for the anniversary of the dedication of a church (outside). Our PV looked at the “saints” category of the Sacramentary and couldn’t find St. John Lateran’s basilica. However, he did not notice that I had already placed the Sacramentary at the proper heading. After a while, it dawned upon him that we had pointed him in the right direction.

Pardon? The Feast of the Dedication of the St. John Lateran Basilica is simply found by the date in the Sacramentary. Why all the song and dance? That has nothing to do with what I am asking.

I suppose I should have copied down an example where the standard Sacramentary referred to readings in the Lectionary that differed from the readings for that specific day per the Ordo.

 

[benedictgal]

Hold on a minute. I said the Ordo often suggests a Mass from the Marian Sacramentary while also (obviously) providing the readings for the day. The whole point is that the readings for the day per the Ordo/Lectionary do not match the Marian Sacramentary – NOR do they match the standard Sacramentary at times.

It’s not the Roman Missal. The Sacramentary and the Lectionary combined is the Roman Missal.

Pardon? The Feast of the Dedication of the St. John Lateran Basilica is simply found by the date in the Sacramentary. Why all the song and dance? That has nothing to do with what I am asking.

I suppose I should have copied down an example where the standard Sacramentary referred to readings in the Lectionary that differed from the readings for that specific day per the Ordo.

The Lateran dedication was not found by the date in the Sacramentary. Look it up yourself. It bypasses the 9th of November and goes straight to Pope St. Gregory.

Now, in Spanish, the Sacramentary is called the MIssal Roman (Roman MIssal).

 

[Daprato]

The Lateran dedication was not found by the date in the Sacramentary. Look it up yourself. It bypasses the 9th of November and goes straight to Pope St. Gregory.

Now, in Spanish, the Sacramentary is called the MIssal Roman (Roman MIssal).

The Sacramentary alone is not the Roman Missal. That’s not debatable.

My apologies if I got the Lateran dedication Mass wrong, but it had nothing to do with what I am asking and it wasn’t difficult to find.

 

[AJV]

Sadly I cannot because I don’t have either document in front of me. No, the Sacramentary does not have readings in it, but different commons will often specify readings that do not match the Ordo.

The reason I ask now is that I am looking at the Collection of Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Ordo will often suggest a Mass from this special Sacramentary (which is not in the regular Sacramentary) for Saturday mornings. The confusion arises because this Marian Sacramentary (yes, it’s approved) comes with its own special Lectionary. The Ordo will suggest a Mass from this Marian Sacramentary (only a suggestion – any Mass of the BVM may be chosen) while also providing the daily reading which does not match the special Marian Sacramentary’s direction.

Could this be based on the idea that the weekday cursus should not be interrupted unless there are Proper readings for a saint? (the Collection of Masses for the BVM does have a proper lectionery…but then, it usually comes under the Votive Masses ** does it not?). Like how for weekday or Masses of saints which are memorials, the reading is from the weekday as normal.

**unless the day coincides with the actual feast day if there is one, like September 13 for holy name of Mary.

From the Introduction to the Lectionary:

1. The arrangement of weekday readings provides texts for every day of the week throughout the year. In most cases, therefore, these readings are to be used on their assigned days, unless a solemnity, a feast, or else a memorial with proper readings occurs.

1. …The first concern of a priest celebrating with a congregation is the spiritual benefit of the faithful and he will be careful not to impose his personal preference on them. Above all he will make sure not to omit too often or without sufficient cause the readings assigned for each day in the weekday Lectionary: the Church’s desire is that a more lavish table of the word of God be spread before the faithful.

From the GIRM

For memorials of Saints, unless strictly proper readings are given, the readings assigned for the weekday are customarily used. In certain cases, readings are provided that highlight some particular aspect of the spiritual life or activity of the Saint. The use of such readings is not to be insisted upon, unless a pastoral reason suggests it.

Of course this is speaking more about memorials that votives.

 

[AJV]

The Sacramentary alone is not the Roman Missal. That’s not debatable.

Why do you think so? (honestly asking, I’m curious as to your reason)

The way I see it- while the pre-conciliar book called the Missale Romanum included the readings, the post-conciliar book (which in English, as you know, is the Sacramentary) does not. This would seem to indicate that apart from publications like the Missale Parvum the Missal and the Lectionary are different. The Lectionary is sometimes termed “The Lectionary of the Roman Missal”

 

[AJV]

Sadly I cannot because I don’t have either document in front of me. No, the Sacramentary does not have readings in it, but different commons will often specify readings that do not match the Ordo.

The reason I ask now is that I am looking at the Collection of Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Ordo will often suggest a Mass from this special Sacramentary (which is not in the regular Sacramentary) for Saturday mornings. The confusion arises because this Marian Sacramentary (yes, it’s approved) comes with its own special Lectionary. The Ordo will suggest a Mass from this Marian Sacramentary (only a suggestion – any Mass of the BVM may be chosen) while also providing the daily reading which does not match the special Marian Sacramentary’s direction.

Could this be based on the idea that the weekday cursus should not be interrupted unless there are Proper readings for a saint? (the Collection of Masses for the BVM does have a proper lectionery…but then, it usually comes under the Votive Masses ** does it not?). Like how for weekday or Masses of saints which are memorials, the reading is from the weekday as normal.

**unless, perhaps for some cases, the day coincides with the actual feast day if there is one, like September 13 for holy name of Mary.

From the Introduction to the Lectionary:

1. The arrangement of weekday readings provides texts for every day of the week throughout the year. In most cases, therefore, these readings are to be used on their assigned days, unless a solemnity, a feast, or else a memorial with proper readings occurs.

1. …The first concern of a priest celebrating with a congregation is the spiritual benefit of the faithful and he will be careful not to impose his personal preference on them. Above all he will make sure not to omit too often or without sufficient cause the readings assigned for each day in the weekday Lectionary: the Church’s desire is that a more lavish table of the word of God be spread before the faithful.

From the GIRM

For memorials of Saints, unless strictly proper readings are given, the readings assigned for the weekday are customarily used. In certain cases, readings are provided that highlight some particular aspect of the spiritual life or activity of the Saint. The use of such readings is not to be insisted upon, unless a pastoral reason suggests it.

Of course this is speaking more about memorials that votives.

 

[Daprato]

Could this be based on the idea that the weekday cursus should not be interrupted unless there are Proper readings for a saint? (the Collection of Masses for the BVM does have a proper lectionery…but then, it usually comes under the Votive Masses ** does it not?). Like how for weekday or Masses of saints which are memorials, the reading is from the weekday as normal.

**unless, perhaps for some cases, the day coincides with the actual feast day if there is one, like September 13 for holy name of Mary.

From the Introduction to the Lectionary:

From the GIRM

Of course this is speaking more about memorials that votives.

Bingo. Thanks. The quote from the GIRM really says it all…

 

[Daprato]

Why do you think so? (honestly asking, I’m curious as to your reason)

The way I see it- while the pre-conciliar book called the Missale Romanum included the readings, the post-conciliar book (which in English, as you know, is the Sacramentary) does not. This would seem to indicate that apart from publications like the Missale Parvum the Missal and the Lectionary are different. The Lectionary is sometimes termed “The Lectionary of the Roman Missal”

Because the Missale Romanum contains both the rituals and readings for the Mass, as does the Sacramentary and Lectionary combined.

 

[AJV]

Because the Missale Romanum contains both the rituals and readings for the Mass, as does the Sacramentary and Lectionary combined.

I always thought it came in 2 (or rather, 5) volumes: Missale and the Lectionarium I, II, III, IV?

 

[benedictgal]

Because the Missale Romanum contains both the rituals and readings for the Mass, as does the Sacramentary and Lectionary combined.

That may hold for the 1962 Missal and all previous ones, but, I’m inclined to agree with the previous poster in that the two are separate. As I worte earlier, in Spanish, the Sacramentary is referred to as the Missal Roman and the three-bound lectionary set is treated on its own. If it were the case that both Lectionary and Sacramentary form a whole Roman Missal, how do you account for the Book of the Gospels?

 

[Daprato]

That may hold for the 1962 Missal and all previous ones, but, I’m inclined to agree with the previous poster in that the two are separate. As I worte earlier, in Spanish, the Sacramentary is referred to as the Missal Roman and the three-bound lectionary set is treated on its own. If it were the case that both Lectionary and Sacramentary form a whole Roman Missal, how do you account for the Book of the Gospels?

Even with the Missale Romanum we have an Evangeliary. A Book of Gospels existed then and still does today.

In any event, my question has been answered.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In the 1962 Missal Sacramentary and Lectionary are combined. It had only one cyle for Sundays, no weekday readings for Ordinary Time or Advent, and only one cycle for weekdays in Lent. The current mass greatly expanded the readings - three cycles for Sundays plus 2 cycles of Weekday readings for the entire year. It would be unwieldy, and probably impossible, to put all of this into one volume.

 

[Daprato]

In the 1962 Missal Sacramentary and Lectionary are combined. It had only one cyle for Sundays, no weekday readings for Ordinary Time or Advent, and only one cycle for weekdays in Lent. The current mass greatly expanded the readings - three cycles for Sundays plus 2 cycles of Weekday readings for the entire year. It would be unwieldy, and probably impossible, to put all of this into one volume.

That’s quite true – the Roman Missal is what…well, over a foot thick. That’s not however to say that the Sacramentary is the Roman Missal which is it not

 

[Joe_Kelley]

That’s quite true – the Roman Missal is what…well, over a foot thick. That’s not however to say that the Sacramentary is the Roman Missal which is it not

In the1962 mass the server carries the missal, including its heavy metal stand, down the steps, genuflects and backup to the other side twice - once between the reading of the Epistle and the Gospel and once after Communion. you can’t see where you are going. It’s a real challenge when you are eight or nine; especially if your cassock is a bit long and tends to trip you.