Real Catholic TV on feminism in the Church

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laszlo said:
I do not watch videos and do not like Michael Voris. However, the argument that 71% of the ordained priest was altar boy is proof that being altar boy is one of the road toward the priesthood, and the most walked road.
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Dear laszlo, doesn’t it follow that if you feel a calling to be closer to God, to maybe be a priest some day that you will do everything in your power to explore that option, say by being an altar boy, going to youth groups, reading the Bible and the Church Fathers, the Catechism, etc. Woiuldn’t that be a much better explanation for why priests were altar boys; in fact, I would expect a MUCH higher percentage. Do you follow?

It’s the same as how a future Doctor might be drawn to going for visits with other family members, just to observe; or a future forest ranger might enjoy hikes in the woods as a youth. The hikes do not *make *the ranger; the future ranger desires the hikes to begin with and so follows down the natural path.
laszlo said:
As a comparison only 47% of ordinands attended Catholic elementary school, and about the same number were encouraged by their mother toward the priesthood.
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But this only makes my point. Post Hoc fallacy is alive and well in stats.
laszlo said:
The regular age to learn to be altar server is 8-12, and this is also the age when the presence of girls means sissy group for boys. Altar girls may be the pride of their mother but they meant damage for the Church.
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I can’t deny there may be something to this; especially when there is NO FATHER present in the church, period; let alone to say tell his son that’s what HE used to do and; being an altar boy IS a very manly kind of duty.

Don’t you think that if it were the FATHER there giving the boys a boost, they wouldn’t hesitate to step up?

(This last is pure speculation on my part; I admit ignorance as to how this dynamic plays out - so … do tell me).
 
lizaanne said:
The real (and not snarky) answer, is that they have been contracepted out of existence. If couples were not contracepting their families down to one boy and one girl perfection, then mothers would not be so reluctant to give up their only son and carrier of the family name, to the priesthood.

I heard an awesome story about a priest who was asked by someone in his parish, what concrete thing can we do to help vocations. The priest answered, go home, flush your contraceptive pills, and have sex with your husband. 😉

~Liza
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Really, you think that’s “snarky”?

Alas, it’s very much reality, from where I stand.

So you have a parish where all you see are couples. Yay. Unfortunately, that has not been my experience for the last 30 + years @ 9 different parishes. 😦
 
archangel04 said:
I was a server for 10 years from 94 to 04 so I saw what happen for those 10 years. When I first started I would only serve once if not twice a month for the fact that there were too many altar boys at the time, we had no shortage. Now I am not saying this is the case, but around when I started our parish allowed females to join. Only 2 girls started to serve. I was young and was always embarrassed to serve next to them because other boys would start making fun of me, you know how it is lol. As I got older, boys just started to leave and other boys were just not stepping up to the plate. It got bad where I was the only one serving mass for 3 months straight. More girls started showing up and I really had no problem with it, but I had more problem was the lack of reverence, lack of prayer some of them had, and it seemed that their purpose was to be up there to look pretty. Soon I started getting complaints or looks from parents on why I would not let their kids hold the cross, even though it was reserved for the oldest, leader, or tallest, which in this case all three pertain to me. Sure did not help that the abuse scandals broke out when I was in high school so that made the bullying a lot worst for me, imagine getting picked on because you are an altar boy, now it had gotten worst because it was just more fuel for the bullies.

Anyways now at the parish the girls outnumber the boys 3 to 1, and the boys don’t last. The girls up there don’t serve the way we served, and I’ve seen all of them serve only a few show reverence for what they do. The person that trained me is still there and always complaining about all the different she has to do in the parish, including training for servers. I offered to take over and presented a plan for them:
1, start a new group called Knights of the Altar, were boys 5th grade and up receive very well training and take an exam at the end to see if they are up for the task. Once they have passed have a mass to celebrate their entrance to the group, taking an “oath” to serve Christ and his priest and be a guardian of the most sacred altar.
2. Have a “leadership structure” where the new ones start at the bottom and work their way up example: book bearer to torch bearer, to MC
3. Continue educating them about the theology of the mass, and encourage vocations.
In the end I was told I was not qualified, it was unfair to girls, and that those names like knights of the altar or MC belong to those on their way to ordination.
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THIS is disturbing. Thank you for sharing. How awful that must have been for you. 😦

Personally, I love your ideas and would have encouraged them as far as you could go.
 
Carol, perhaps in the past it was much easier for young boy to entertain the idea of being a priest and following through all the way to odination, but now it’s not so easy. Sex is much more easy to attain in the youth. Most girls are open to the idea of “giving it up” because it’s seen as natural, and being virgins is just lame or unatural. With the recent scandals it’s much harder as well, when you have media portraying the priest as evil and harmful, most kids wont want to be part that is shown as evil in the media. When cartoons like family guy keep bringing up stereotypes of priest with young boys, real boys will not want to be part of being an altar boy let alone a “priest who likes boys” even though this is not true. Today it’s much harder to choose to become a priest even if you hint you might have a calling.
 
InspiritCarol said:
THIS is disturbing. Thank you for sharing. How awful that must have been for you. 😦

Personally, I love your ideas and would have encouraged them as far as you could go.
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Thank you it was a hard life for me, and never even got a thanks from anyone for my service, which is ok because I never joined for that I joined for the Lord, but it would have helped to have had some support, instead once I left as a server I left the Church as well, and I come back and leave and I always end up in a limbo lol.
I also forgot to add as one of me ideas that at the end of the “year” which would be the summer, the boys together as a “council” could choose wether they wanted to take a trip to six flags theme park or paint balling.

Perhaps someone will use similar idead in their parish and hopefully they can see some numbers grow.

As I’ve said before I have no problem girls serving, my sister serves, but when the numbers of priest are so low, why do we mess with something that has given us priest in the past?
 
InspiritCarol said:
I can’t deny there may be something to this; especially when there is NO FATHER present in the church, period; let alone to say tell his son that’s what HE used to do and; being an altar boy IS a very manly kind of duty.
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So how do we turn things around so to make it look like altar serving is a masculine thing again?
 
I stopped watching the vortex months ago, as I find the information just feeds the hate for those who want to hate on the Church within and without. I’m pretty sure there is a proverb or a couple dozen of them, that points out that only fools point out their own errors (so why a Catholic is pointing out what he sees as errors in his own Church is beyond me).

As for alter girls, it was okayed by a Pope, so get over it.

Prior to the 12th C. women could be ordained to the level of Deacon (ess), and many Deaconesses are listed in the book of Acts. Then again, prior to the 12th C. priests were still getting married instead of remaining celebate. But, eventually they obeyed thier pope and celibate priests are the norm today. As is alter servers of both sexes. (So sorry to read that some of you out there suffer from poor alter servers at your parish. That is the fault of your priest for allowing poor alter servers, no the fault of the girls.)

There’s also permission for both sexes to serve as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Where do you draw the line if you want to say that females are not allow to assist?:confused:

There’s nothing wrong with females assisting. (And to blame a drop in vocations to a rise in female alter servers is called male chauvenism and is wrong). In my parish we have nuns and sisters who assist during mass. Is that bad too? Again, where do you draw the line that it’s “confusing for boys to see female alter servers”? That is illogical and crazy talk.

Gee, wasn’t it our Lady who, along with the women who followed Jesus with the Disciples, who would set up and break down for meals? Really, be serious here. There’s a pretty clear account of Mary and Martha during meal time: Mary listening to Jesus, and her sister getting chastised by him because she’d rather attend to the kitchen than his teaching time! So, that said, females are always welcome around the alter, since it’s so great a time spent with the Lord!
 
waterbender said:
I stopped watching the vortex months ago, as I find the information just feeds the hate for those who want to hate on the Church within and without. I’m pretty sure there is a proverb or a couple dozen of them, that points out that only fools point out their own errors (so why a Catholic is pointing out what he sees as errors in his own Church is beyond me).

As for alter girls, it was okayed by a Pope, so get over it.

Prior to the 12th C. women could be ordained to the level of Deacon (ess), and many Deaconesses are listed in the book of Acts. Then again, prior to the 12th C. priest were still getting married instead of remaining celebate. But, eventually they obeyed thier pope and celibate priests are the norm today. As is alter servers of both sexes.

There’s also permission for both sexes to serve as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Where do you draw the line if you want to say that females are not allow to assist?

There’s nothing wrong with females assisting. Gee, wasn’t it our Lady who, along with the women who followed Jesus with the Disciples, who would set up and break down for meals? There’s a pretty clear account of Mary and Martha during meal time: Mary listening to Jesus, and her sister getting chastised by him because she’d rather attend to the kitchen than his teaching time! So, that said, females are always welcome around the alter, since it’s so great a time spent with the Lord!
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The bold is mine

Listen avatar, sorry 😉 I had to do that not to mention your post is uncharitable by telling people to get over it. The Church has never allowed for priest to get married, this has never been the norm. Married men were allowed to become priest in the past and some cases this happens today especially in the eastern Churches. But chastity has always been encouraged since the days of St. Paul. Deconess was never part of holy orders, their role was not the same as the Deacons of today.
The '94 document from Rome states that women are permitted to serve but document encourages boys most of all to be servers, and that no bishop nor priest is required to have women serve at the altar. The Pope does not allow for women servers at his celebrations.
 
archangel04 said:
Carol, perhaps in the past it was much easier for young boy to entertain the idea of being a priest and following through all the way to odination, but now it’s not so easy. Sex is much more easy to attain in the youth. Most girls are open to the idea of “giving it up” because it’s seen as natural, and being virgins is just lame or unatural. With the recent scandals it’s much harder as well, when you have media portraying the priest as evil and harmful, most kids wont want to be part that is shown as evil in the media. When cartoons like family guy keep bringing up stereotypes of priest with young boys, real boys will not want to be part of being an altar boy let alone a “priest who likes boys” even though this is not true. Today it’s much harder to choose to become a priest even if you hint you might have a calling.
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This is SO true. I “killed” my TV almost a decade ago and never looked back. It’s the most wonderful thing I have ever decided to do.

It was hard enough in my day to be celebate; you were a freak and a “lesbian” if you weren’t active; and it’s only worse now. (It seems).

How sad that the adults aren’t able to better protect their children from these lies. Mine are toddlers now and I very much desire the means to at least equip them with better discernment in these matters. Pray for our youth- my generation is lost. 😦
 
archangel04 said:
Thank you it was a hard life for me, and never even got a thanks from anyone for my service, which is ok because I never joined for that I joined for the Lord, but it would have helped to have had some support, instead once I left as a server I left the Church as well, and I come back and leave and I always end up in a limbo lol.
I also forgot to add as one of me ideas that at the end of the “year” which would be the summer, the boys together as a “council” could choose wether they wanted to take a trip to six flags theme park or paint balling.

Perhaps someone will use similar idead in their parish and hopefully they can see some numbers grow.

As I’ve said before I have no problem girls serving, my sister serves, but when the numbers of priest are so low, why do we mess with something that has given us priest in the past?
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Or perhaps you could find a parish home where you can find ways to put your ideas into action; or at the very least, more directly inspire others to act on them. Never discount the power of inspiration and seed planting.
 
waterbender said:
I stopped watching the vortex months ago, as I find the information just feeds the hate for those who want to hate on the Church within and without. I’m pretty sure there is a proverb or a couple dozen of them, that points out that only fools point out their own errors (so why a Catholic is pointing out what he sees as errors in his own Church is beyond me).

As for alter girls, it was okayed by a Pope, so get over it.

Prior to the 12th C. women could be ordained to the level of Deacon (ess), and many Deaconesses are listed in the book of Acts. Then again, prior to the 12th C. priests were still getting married instead of remaining celebate. But, eventually they obeyed thier pope and celibate priests are the norm today. As is alter servers of both sexes. (So sorry to read that some of you out there suffer from poor alter servers at your parish. That is the fault of your priest for allowing poor alter servers, no the fault of the girls.)

There’s also permission for both sexes to serve as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Where do you draw the line if you want to say that females are not allow to assist?:confused:

There’s nothing wrong with females assisting. (And to blame a drop in vocations to a rise in female alter servers is called male chauvenism and is wrong). In my parish we have nuns and sisters who assist during mass. Is that bad too? Again, where do you draw the line that it’s “confusing for boys to see female alter servers”? That is illogical and crazy talk.

Gee, wasn’t it our Lady who, along with the women who followed Jesus with the Disciples, who would set up and break down for meals? Really, be serious here. There’s a pretty clear account of Mary and Martha during meal time: Mary listening to Jesus, and her sister getting chastised by him because she’d rather attend to the kitchen than his teaching time! So, that said, females are always welcome around the alter, since it’s so great a time spent with the Lord!
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Good thing the Church ceased being an evil patriarchal institution once the renewal of Vatican II allowed a false notion of equality to emerge and cloud the distinction between the roles of males and females during Holy Mass. At times, if not everyday, the Church seems to be nothing but another version of the Episcopal Church, which of course isn’t a church, but nevertheless.
 
ProVobis said:
So how do we turn things around so to make it look like altar serving is a masculine thing again?
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*Very *good question.

I just posed this to my husband.

His response was “you’re doing the dishes what do you expect”?

I like archangel04’s ideas. Make it more about camaraderie outside of the duties. Like when I was on the varsity softball team: nothing is more BORING than girl’s softball, by nature, but we were a team and did team “stuff” that far surpassed the actual time on the playing field.

Just the same, have the servers; guided by men, do manly things (only you know what that involves). Does this not sound potentially effective while at the same time discouraging the “preeners” who just want to be up “in front”? You don’t even have to deliberately exclude girls; just have more boy type functions involved and your balance will shift quite naturally.

Does this seem sensible?

Though it *still *doesn’t follow that the presence of girls is taking away priests.
 
Exactly Carol, men love the idea about being part of an “elite” team. It should be open to everyone, but make them work for it, understand what they are doing, and the honor that only some are called to that role. When you take the servers to do activities together that are “manly” in nature they will respond to doing good jobs at serving. When the priest is involved they will admire him as role model, because thats what boys do, and some might follow in his foot steps.
 
archangel04 said:
Exactly Carol, men love the idea about being part of an “elite” team. It should be open to everyone, but make them work for it, understand what they are doing, and the honor that only some are called to that role. When you take the servers to do activities together that are “manly” in nature they will respond to doing good jobs at serving. When the priest is involved they will admire him as role model, because thats what boys do, and some might follow in his foot steps.
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My friend, this seems too natural to you. Are you sure you are not feeling some kind of calling yourself? :knight2:
 
waterbender said:
I stopped watching the vortex months ago, as I find the information just feeds the hate for those who want to hate on the Church within and without. I’m pretty sure there is a proverb or a couple dozen of them, that points out that only fools point out their own errors (so why a Catholic is pointing out what he sees as errors in his own Church is beyond me).

As for alter girls, it was okayed by a Pope, so get over it.

Prior to the 12th C. women could be ordained to the level of Deacon (ess), and many Deaconesses are listed in the book of Acts. Then again, prior to the 12th C. priests were still getting married instead of remaining celebate. But, eventually they obeyed thier pope and celibate priests are the norm today. As is alter servers of both sexes. (So sorry to read that some of you out there suffer from poor alter servers at your parish. That is the fault of your priest for allowing poor alter servers, no the fault of the girls.)

There’s also permission for both sexes to serve as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Where do you draw the line if you want to say that females are not allow to assist?:confused:

There’s nothing wrong with females assisting. (And to blame a drop in vocations to a rise in female alter servers is called male chauvenism and is wrong). In my parish we have nuns and sisters who assist during mass. Is that bad too? Again, where do you draw the line that it’s “confusing for boys to see female alter servers”? That is illogical and crazy talk.

Gee, wasn’t it our Lady who, along with the women who followed Jesus with the Disciples, who would set up and break down for meals? Really, be serious here. There’s a pretty clear account of Mary and Martha during meal time: Mary listening to Jesus, and her sister getting chastised by him because she’d rather attend to the kitchen than his teaching time! So, that said, females are always welcome around the alter, since it’s so great a time spent with the Lord!
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Good to know about the Vortex. Too bad, the few I watched seemed pretty good to me; guess that was a fluke.
  • I’m trying to picture what it must be like for these old guys who saw so much change in the world over their lifetime. It must be very hard to cognisize and it’s certainly easy to assign blame where it doesn’t belong. Especially when the *real *problem began at home (and I’m not making any personal assessments here - just casual causal conclusions).
I’m trying to wrap my head around the idea that somehow women aren’t confrontational. What kind of mothers would we be if we weren’t confrontational? What kind of mothers would we be if we caved to our children or “compromised” with them.

My husband has been no help for me in this matter, when I asked him what it means to “think like a woman” vs. “think like a man”; I think he is equally insulted when society tries to lay the whole “caveman” persona on him as I am with the “wilting lily” persona. No truth will ever be found therein and, bottom line: Christ was all about truth.

Sometimes God needs us to fill roles that are outside the box; in fact, that’s pretty much the definition of what every single Saint did. Should Joan of Arc stayed home? Should the Blessed Mother have insisted that the Holy Spirit at least hold off until she was married?

Sure there’s an element of the ridiculous to this thread, but there’s just a tiny glimmer of … IDK. It’s at least exposed the ugly scab that seems to be on some hearts. Maybe a few can find new ways to pray on this and find inspiration.

Maybe?
 
waterbender said:
Prior to the 12th C. women could be ordained to the level of Deacon (ess), and many Deaconesses are listed in the book of Acts.
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No, women were never ordained. Deaconesses acted in a specific ministerial role and were not equal to female deacons.
 
Elizium23 said:
No, women were never ordained. Deaconesses acted in a specific ministerial role and were not equal to female deacons.
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Say, do you have a reference as to where we can read up on this stuff?

Thanks!
 
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