Real Catholic TV on feminism in the Church

[Ruth_Catherine]

IDK about the old “teaching nuns” you may have seen, but the High School I went to was also a retirement home for these nuns. Friend, they were lovely wonderful, spiritually beautiful people… truly. I have every ounce of love and respect for them; but, I’m afraid that they deliberately did every thing in their power to de-feminize themselves. These were tough “ladies” and I wouldn’t even swear to their gender at all except for the expectation that thats what they were. …

The reason for the religious habit is that it identifies a sister as a bride of Christ. People know that she belongs to God and His Church in a particular and special way. It allows people to know that she is not available for marriage, because she is already married to Christ. I don’t think they were defeminizing themselves but the opposite and they were feminizing themselves as the symbolism of the habit meant they were brides of Christ…

Also, not a single person I know of who was taught by one of these nuns would remotely label them as “charitable” or “compassionate”. They are as people, yes, (I know from personal experience) but that was not the teaching style at all…

There is always alot of jokes and put downs made of sisters of the past and of Catholic schools but I do remember them as being the same as most people. Some were nicer than others and pretty much as any teacher needs to be in a school; a disciplinarian. Some were compassionless but some were very friendly and filled with compassion.

Maybe it is just happening here in the midwest but the number of sisters and their habits are increasing. Many yesterday at mass. My family has recently met some of them and they are great and very friendly.

With the sisters and all the women saints of the past and great Catholic mothers that raised their sons to be saints and priests the Church has always had a great feminie aspect to it. Even from the beginning when Jesus elevated the value of women.

 

[InspiritCarol]

The reason for the religious habit is that it identifies a sister as a bride of Christ. People know that she belongs to God and His Church in a particular and special way. It allows people to know that she is not available for marriage, because she is already married to Christ. I don’t think they were defeminizing themselves but the opposite and they were feminizing themselves as the symbolism of the habit meant they were brides of Christ…

There is always alot of jokes and put downs made of sisters of the past and of Catholic schools but I do remember them as being the same as most people. Some were nicer than others and pretty much as any teacher needs to be in a school; a disciplinarian. Some were compassionless but some were very friendly and filled with compassion.

Maybe it is just happening here in the midwest but the number of sisters and their habits are increasing. Many yesterday at mass. My family has recently met some of them and they are great and very friendly.

With the sisters and all the women saints of the past and great Catholic mothers that raised their sons to be saints and priests the Church has always had a great feminie aspect to it. Even from the beginning when Jesus elevated the value of women.

Ruth Catherine,

Are you saying it is your belief that Catholicism is therefore a “feminine” religion as represented by the aspect of nuns? Are you supporting the postulation that being charitable is not a male, but a female trait? These nuns therefore exemplify that?

Clarification is required; because that’s what’s on the table here.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

Ruth Catherine,

Are you saying it is your belief that Catholicism is therefore a “feminine” religion as represented by the aspect of nuns? Are you supporting the postulation that being charitable is not a male, but a female trait? These nuns therefore exemplify that?

Clarification is required; because that’s what’s on the table here.

What I am saying is that there has always been a place for women in the Church and women have used their God-given ability for compassion and caring to reach out to others.

I am also, putting in a defense for sisters from your post that they de-feminized themselves. I always looked up to the sisters when growing up and continue to do so.
That does not mean that men can not be charitable and caring. Of course, they can and are but I was responding to your post:

These were tough “ladies” and I wouldn’t even swear to their gender at all except for the expectation that thats what they were. …

and

Also, not a single person I know of who was taught by one of these nuns would remotely label them as “charitable” or “compassionate”. They are as people, yes, (I know from personal experience) but that was not the teaching style at all… .

 

[tradcathconvert]

That’s great but perhaps you ought to explain the role of an MC for many of those here. I know it’s very important in the Solemn High Mass.

The altar boys are trained, scheduled. and given their assignments by me. The vast majority of the time we have a Missa Cantata. Otherwise it is a Low Mass. If conditions ever allowed for us to have a Solemn High Mass, the MC would most likely be me. The MC has to know everyone’s duties riest, deacon, sub deacon, thurifer, acolyte, etc. , and helps ensure that Mass is done according to the rubrics. You might notice him signaling someone and directing the action in the sanctuary.
For our Masses, even if it isn’t a Sunday I assigned myself to be a main server, I always vest and am in the sanctuary. The boys know to keep an eye on me just in case I need to signal them about their next action.

 

[ProVobis]

The altar boys are trained, scheduled. and given their assignments by me. The vast majority of the time we have a Missa Cantata. Otherwise it is a Low Mass. If conditions ever allowed for us to have a Solemn High Mass, the MC would most likely be me. The MC has to know everyone’s duties riest, deacon, sub deacon, thurifer, acolyte, etc. , and helps ensure that Mass is done according to the rubrics. You might notice him signaling someone and directing the action in the sanctuary.

Ah, now it’s coming back to me. I only MC’d at a few Solemn Requiems but I also remember having to know the Missal and pointing the celebrant to the right line. It was cool to get to get out of class to serve those Masses too; not so cool in the summer when we had to go without air conditioning.

 

[tradcathconvert]

The altar boys are trained, scheduled. and given their assignments by me. The vast majority of the time we have a Missa Cantata. Otherwise it is a Low Mass. If conditions ever allowed for us to have a Solemn High Mass, the MC would most likely be me. The MC has to know everyone’s duties - priest, deacon, sub deacon, thurifer, acolyte, etc. , and helps ensure that Mass is done according to the rubrics. You might notice him signaling someone and directing the action in the sanctuary.
For our Masses, even if it isn’t a Sunday I assigned myself to be a main server, I always vest and am in the sanctuary. The boys know to keep an eye on me just in case I need to signal them about their next action.

This is better. It was too late to edit, but here is the post without the stick out tongue.

 

[Phemie]

Also I would point out that while girls are allowed to serve at the altar as an indult implemented at the discretion of the local ordinary, they cannot be instituted acolytes. To me that says that mind of the Church is that service at the altar is to be reserved for young men.

Something that is allowed by canon law cannot be said to be by indult. That said, ultimately the decision to NOT use female altar servers belongs to the celebrant. While he may not use them without the Bishop’s permission, he doesn’t have to use them even if the Bishop allows them.

Unfortunately, in most dioceses today, you won’t find instituted acolytes simply because they must be men. Some national Bishops’ Conferences don’t allow institution of acolytes who aren’t on the path to the diaconate.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Her desire is to do the will of God because she loves Him. Her pride is in the gifts she has received from God because that is where all good things come from.
Her interests are interests that God leads her to as she listens to his voice in her heart and she finds great fullfillment in following those interests.
He makes His wants her wants and she is very happy and content in following Him because God is where all happiness lies.

So you’re telling me that I’m right then:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Michael Voris is awesome!!!

When I first watched one of his videos, I’ll be honest to say I thought he was quite rude. I started watching more and more, and really, when you get used to him, he’s excellent! Bold and honest!

Or you’re just developing a greater tolerance for rudeness.

I know I have thanks to encounters with various internet trolls and other rude people. To be honest I think I have also become a bit ruder myself as a result:shrug:

 

[nordskoven]

Physiology plays a part in the feminization of the Church. Low levels of Vitamin D are associated with low testosterone; and all the Vitamin A baldness remedies are blocking the uptake of Vitamin D. The use of antibiotics leads to an overgrowth of gut Candida which produces estrogen. Grandpa’s testosterone level was twice what it is in his grandson. High estrogen in males is linked with a rise in violence against women. How about we take charge of our health and nutrition? Cows raised on soybeans and corn are high in PUFA, polyunsaturated fats, inherently inflammatory; and soy has estrogen-like qualities. Not to mention all the estrogen in drinking water from birth control users. Petrochemicals mimic estrogen. It’s giving men and women permanent PMS. Please, God, empower us to bring Your abundant life with manly men and womanly women and grateful children, all for Your honor and glory. AMEN

 

[AngryAtheist8]

She was pushy enough to coerce her son to perform his first miracle.

Because she’s God’s favorite.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Catholicism has always had a feminine character to it. The ancient world referred to it as a woman’s religion since it was so preferential to them and because it shared a compassion for the poor, sick, and outcast. Take the imagery used, The Bride of Christ, Holy Mother Church, etc. On top of that, in the West especially, religion is seen as the domain of women and old folk. The men are stereotypically left trying to get out of anything Church related. If you make it so we can be replaced by women, most of us will let you do that. But it you leave it as a man’s responsibility, we are the only ones to blame when it doesn’t get done.

If you make men, (young, old and in between) necessary, we will come. If you make us optional, we won’t.

Its true that Christianity was often derided as being a ‘women’s religion’ by the ancient pagans, but you need to understand the context. To the ancient Romans and Greeks one of the worst insults you could say about a person or group was to call it womanly.

So it makes sense that the the pagan faiths would condemn their new competitor (Christianity) in those terms.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m glad that you mentioned St. Pio. St. Pio was a member of my religious family, the Franciscan family. He was a Capuchin Franciscan Brother. In fact, he belonged to the same province a Frater Cantalamessa, the papal preacher.

If we take the time to study the Franciscan school, we may learn a great deal that may help in this thread. St. Pio had an opinion. Before he expressed his opinion, he asked his superior if it was permissible to do so. This is an 800 year Franciscan tradition. No one expresses opinions of that nature without permission. It’s not like expressing your opinion about the weather. You had better be sure that your superior will back up your opinion. If he does not, you’re in serious canonical trouble and depending on the matter, you may even be in a state of grave sin for disobedience and presumption.

Second, the opinion was worded in such a way that it did not oppose the opinion of Church authorities, nor did it encourage anyone to oppose Church authorities, nor discourage anyone from doing whatever the Church allows. Why the careful wording? Again, it would be good for everyone here to study the Franciscan school of spirituality. Francis was not only a holy man, he was a mystic and a spiritual master. He understood what was necessary to achieve great holiness. One of the requirements for great holiness was submission to the Church at all times and in all things, even when one disagreed. You could always work through your disagreements. But it was risky business to dissent, even if you were right. Because God looks for obedience above all things. Man’s universal call is to conform to Christ who obeyed even unto death. From St. Pio’s point of view, he was not too keen on some things, but he suffered a psychological death, if you will, just as Christ suffered an actual death, all for the sake of obedience. Only through obedience can souls be redeemed.

**Finally, St. Pio did not like many changes that took place during his final years. He asked his superiors if it was OK not to like these changes. He was actually told what changes he could dislike and which ones he had to learn to like. He did. This is how great saints operate. You force your mind and your will to comply, because you love. This has not changed to this day.
**

Br. JR, OSF

So great saints don’t have opinions or thoughts of their own?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

**What I am saying is that there has always been a place for women in the Church **and women have used their God-given ability for compassion and caring to reach out to others.

I am also, putting in a defense for sisters from your post that they de-feminized themselves. I always looked up to the sisters when growing up and continue to do so.
That does not mean that men can not be charitable and caring. Of course, they can and are but I was responding to your post:

and

Well yes.

Traditionally a woman’s place in the Church is at the bottom.
A nun or laywoman is considered under the authority of the Church, but she cannot even join the hierarchy.

The Virgin Mary is of course, a special case.

 

[Ruth_Catherine]

So you’re telling me that I’m right then:shrug:

This was your question: Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
So the best kind of woman has no desires, pride, will or interests of her own?

If you are asking if I agree with that then the answer is yes and no.
The best kind of woman’s desires are her Creators desires because she is in a very loving relationship with Him. She listens to the Spirit of God because she knows his leading and guiding is what is best. This is her desire. It is her own desire to follow God. It is her own interest to follow God. She doesn’t need or want to do anything that is not God’s will because she knows it would only bring her and possibly the people around her harm. Being outside of God’s will is not her interest, desire or pride at all. That would be being away from someone who loves you and who you love. Just like when a relationship is lost between two people, it is the same being away from the love of God. That leaves a very empty and lonely feeling.

 

[JReducation]

So great saints don’t have opinions or thoughts of their own?

Trust me, they do. But the difference between them and you and I is that they are very disciplined people. They know when to

a. share their opinions

b. hold their tongue

c. put distance between themselves and their opinions

On top of that, if you’re a Franciscan or a Discalced Carmelite you know that you may only follow those opinions allowed to you by your superiors. Your will is not your own. It belongs to Christ. Christ speaks through your superior. You must always be like a corpse. It is God’s will that you listen, obey and humbly accept whatever your superior opines, even if you believe that you’re right. What you believe is irrelevant to Christ and to the Church. Christ made himself obedient even unto death. Therefore, the good Franciscan and the good Discalced Carmelite aspires to nothing else but to the perfection of submission and detachment from self. All of these other aspirations that we have are not part of the eternal reality. In the end, the only thing that is left is love. Love is always obedient and silent before the voice of the Beloved.

In this case, speaking about St. Pio, what made him a saint was his ability to acknowledge that Christ spoke through Francis and that Francis commanded obedience to himself through his canonically elected successors. When we look back, what did Francis teach us? He taught us to obey the Church, even in times of great crisis and great upheavals and changes. He taught us not to split hairs with the Church. It made no difference whether something was fallible or infallible. As long as the Apostle Peter or his delegate spoke, we obeyed, because submission to authority is a virtue, winning an argument or proving a point is a win, but not a moment of virtue.

Padre Pio, like all of our Franciscan saints before him aspired for virtue, not for wins. Like all Franciscan men, he was submissive to Francis, because Francis teaches us how to be more like Christ, something that he achieved almost to perfection.

It’s not just a matter of having opinions. It’s a matter of a particular way of being and a particular worldview based on the teachings and examples of one of the greatest spiritual masters the world has ever known. Pope Pius XII once said that Francis of Assisi was to the spiritual life what Aquinas was to theology. In a recent scolding that the pope gave to the bishops of Italy he told them that, be they religious or not, be they Franciscans or not, they were to submit to him as Francis submitted to the popes of his time. The Church has always held Francis up as an example of submission. That does not mean that Francis always agreed. It means that Francis always complied, even when he disagreed. We will never know when and how much he disagreed, because he never mentioned it.

He was a very interesting man. Whenever he came back to the friars or to the laity after speaking to the pope or the bishops, he would simply say, “Let us being . . .” and he would lead them to do whatever the pope or the bishop had directed. They would look at him, wondering, because they knew that he has previously said that he hoped to do X and suddenly he was saying “we’re doing Y” and would not explain. When asked, he always used a line that St. Pio would later repeat. “Obedience, obedience, obedience . . . what part of obedience is so difficult to understand?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[rben20]

… “Obedience, obedience, obedience . . . what part of obedience is so difficult to understand?”

It’s not difficult to understand…just hard to do.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Trust me, they do. But the difference between them and you and I is that they are very disciplined people. They know when to

a. share their opinions

b. hold their tongue

c. put distance between themselves and their opinions

On top of that, if you’re a Franciscan or a Discalced Carmelite you know that you may only follow those opinions allowed to you by your superiors. Your will is not your own. It belongs to Christ. Christ speaks through your superior. **You must always be like a corpse. ** It is God’s will that you listen, obey and humbly accept whatever your superior opines, even if you believe that you’re right. What you believe is irrelevant to Christ and to the Church. Christ made himself obedient even unto death. Therefore, the good Franciscan and the good Discalced Carmelite aspires to nothing else but to the perfection of submission and detachment from self. All of these other aspirations that we have are not part of the eternal reality. In the end, the only thing that is left is love. Love is always obedient and silent before the voice of the Beloved.

In this case, speaking about St. Pio, what made him a saint was his ability to acknowledge that Christ spoke through Francis and that Francis commanded obedience to himself through his canonically elected successors. When we look back, what did Francis teach us? He taught us to obey the Church, even in times of great crisis and great upheavals and changes. He taught us not to split hairs with the Church. It made no difference whether something was fallible or infallible. As long as the Apostle Peter or his delegate spoke, we obeyed, because submission to authority is a virtue, winning an argument or proving a point is a win, but not a moment of virtue.

Padre Pio, like all of our Franciscan saints before him aspired for virtue, not for wins. Like all Franciscan men, he was submissive to Francis, because Francis teaches us how to be more like Christ, something that he achieved almost to perfection.

It’s not just a matter of having opinions. It’s a matter of a particular way of being and a particular worldview based on the teachings and examples of one of the greatest spiritual masters the world has ever known. Pope Pius XII once said that Francis of Assisi was to the spiritual life what Aquinas was to theology. In a recent scolding that the pope gave to the bishops of Italy he told them that, be they religious or not, be they Franciscans or not, they were to submit to him as Francis submitted to the popes of his time. The Church has always held Francis up as an example of submission. That does not mean that Francis always agreed. It means that Francis always complied, even when he disagreed. We will never know when and how much he disagreed, because he never mentioned it.

He was a very interesting man. Whenever he came back to the friars or to the laity after speaking to the pope or the bishops, he would simply say, “Let us being . . .” and he would lead them to do whatever the pope or the bishop had directed. They would look at him, wondering, because they knew that he has previously said that he hoped to do X and suddenly he was saying “we’re doing Y” and would not explain. When asked, he always used a line that St. Pio would later repeat. “Obedience, obedience, obedience . . . what part of obedience is so difficult to understand?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The ideal is to be like a corpse with no will of your own?

I cannot consider that admirable.
When people try to destroy the individuality and personality of others we generally call them monstrous. I don’t see why its any better when its people doing it to themselves.

Moreover, ideologies that emphasize obedience as the most important and primary virtue are nothing new. And they always eventually lead to horrible abuses.

Probably the best and most well known example of this is how Germans dutifully participated in atrocities during the era of Nazi Germany. Believing obedience to their superiors (the Fuhrer and his representatives) to be the greatest virtue.

A more recent and relevant example (for Catholics at least) is the sex abuse scandal and long term cover-up in Catholic Ireland. These crimes against (primarily) women and children were covered up by priests and laymen over and over again, and according to these priests and laypeople themselves they were doing it to be obedient to and protective of the Church itself.

Even Irish Bishops were part of this corruption. Like Cardinal Sean Brady, who protected a molesting priest by swearing his victims to silence (here’s a recent news article on the subject: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse).

I think the fundamental problem I have with what you’re advocating, is that with ideologies like these “I was only following orders” becomes a legitimate argument for explaining virtually any atrocity or excess. After all, if obedience is the highest virtue then there is nothing more sinful than disobeying.

 

[JReducation]

It’s not difficult to understand…just hard to do.

Tell me about it. People often ask me how I can live without sex and wife. I always say that it’s easy. It’s one less person giving me orders.

Of the three vows: obedience. poverty and chastity, obedience is the most challenging, because it challenges us at the level of Original Sin. It calls on us to return to the innocence of Adam before the fall.

The ideal is to be like a corpse with no will of your own?

I cannot consider that admirable.
When people try to destroy the individuality and personality of others we generally call them monstrous. I don’t see why its any better when its people doing it to themselves.

Moreover, ideologies that emphasize obedience as the most important and primary virtue are nothing new. And they always eventually lead to horrible abuses.

Probably the best and most well known example of this is how Germans dutifully participated in atrocities during the era of Nazi Germany. Believing obedience to their superiors (the Fuhrer and his representatives) to be the greatest virtue.

A more recent and relevant example (for Catholics at least) is the sex abuse scandal and long term cover-up in Catholic Ireland. These crimes against (primarily) women and children were covered up by priests and laymen over and over again, and according to these priests and laypeople themselves they were doing it to be obedient to and protective of the Church itself.

Even Irish Bishops were part of this corruption. Like Cardinal Sean Brady, who protected a molesting priest by swearing his victims to silence (here’s a recent news article on the subject: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse).

I think the fundamental problem I have with what you’re advocating, is that with ideologies like these “I was only following orders” becomes a legitimate argument for explaining virtually any atrocity or excess. After all, if obedience is the highest virtue then there is nothing more sinful than disobeying.

I think that you’re missing two important points.

1. No one can command you to sin. You obey in all things, but sin.
2. All of the examples that you have sited above are sins. Therefore, no one is obliged to comply with such requests.

On another note, this is not an ideology that I’m advocating. This is a way of life that Christ taught us and that the Apostles taught their disciples and all the way down the line to this day. Christ taught us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. St. Paul directs us to conform ourselves to Christ who was obedient even unto death. St. John calls us to abide in His love. Obedience is a way of loving.

If we look at the scriptures we see how God calls us to obey from the moment that he breathes life into man. He gives Adam a command. We see him ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. He sends Moses with a message to Pharaoh commanding him to obey, “Let my people go.” It’s not a request. It’s an order. When Pharaoh fails to comply, he suffers the consequences.

On Mt. Sinai, God again imposes his authority and calls man to obedience. He delivers the 10 Commandments to his people. They require submission, not deliberation, consultation or analysis.

We see in the New Testament some very interesting examples of obedience. Luke tells us how Mary says to the Angel, “Be it done to me according to your word.” We see how Zacharia is punished for his disbelief by being made mute until the birth of his son, John. And it is only when Zachary obeys God’s command and writes on the tablet, “His name is John,” that he recovers his voice. We see Christ saying to the disciples, “He who hears you hears me.” and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” These are all statements about obedience.

Christ himself says to the Father, “Not my will be done, but your will.” He submits to a bogus trial and accepts an unjust death sentence out of pure obedience. But this life of obedience is grounded in love. It is easy to say that I love God, but love is proven by fidelity to the Beloved. When the Beloved commands, the faithful man obeys.

This obedience is not without a plan or rewards. God calls us to obey in order to restore the world to its original state of innocence. The restoration to innocence is in itself the reward for a loving obedience.

As I said above, obedience is a challenge, but it is not a hardship when one loves. John tells us about Jesus, “He loved them to the end.” This is the life that we aspire to live, one where we love God and his people to the very end. That’s why men like Francis, Benedict, Pio, Maximilian Kolbe and other are such great role models for us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MontChevalier]

Tell me about it. People often ask me how I can live without sex and wife. I always say that it’s easy. It’s one less person giving me orders.

Of the three vows: obedience. poverty and chastity, obedience is the most challenging, because it challenges us at the level of Original Sin. It calls on us to return to the innocence of Adam before the fall.

I think that you’re missing two important points.

1. No one can command you to sin. You obey in all things, but sin.
2. All of the examples that you have sited above are sins. Therefore, no one is obliged to comply with such requests.

On another note, this is not an ideology that I’m advocating. This is a way of life that Christ taught us and that the Apostles taught their disciples and all the way down the line to this day. Christ taught us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. St. Paul directs us to conform ourselves to Christ who was obedient even unto death. St. John calls us to abide in His love. Obedience is a way of loving.

If we look at the scriptures we see how God calls us to obey from the moment that he breathes life into man. He gives Adam a command. We see him ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. He sends Moses with a message to Pharaoh commanding him to obey, “Let my people go.” It’s not a request. It’s an order. When Pharaoh fails to comply, he suffers the consequences.

On Mt. Sinai, God again imposes his authority and calls man to obedience. He delivers the 10 Commandments to his people. They require submission, not deliberation, consultation or analysis.

We see in the New Testament some very interesting examples of obedience. Luke tells us how Mary says to the Angel, “Be it done to me according to your word.” We see how Zacharia is punished for his disbelief by being made mute until the birth of his son, John. And it is only when Zachary obeys God’s command and writes on the tablet, “His name is John,” that he recovers his voice. We see Christ saying to the disciples, “He who hears you hears me.” and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” These are all statements about obedience.

Christ himself says to the Father, “Not my will be done, but your will.” He submits to a bogus trial and accepts an unjust death sentence out of pure obedience. But this life of obedience is grounded in love. It is easy to say that I love God, but love is proven by fidelity to the Beloved. When the Beloved commands, the faithful man obeys.

This obedience is not without a plan or rewards. God calls us to obey in order to restore the world to its original state of innocence. The restoration to innocence is in itself the reward for a loving obedience.

As I said above, obedience is a challenge, but it is not a hardship when one loves. John tells us about Jesus, “He loved them to the end.” This is the life that we aspire to live, one where we love God and his people to the very end. That’s why men like Francis, Benedict, Pio, Maximilian Kolbe and other are such great role models for us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I LOL’ed.

Brother, how do you conjure the strength to ignore the temptations?

-MontChevalier