J
jinc1019
Guest
This is a great point, thanks!
- Status
B
Bookcat
Guest
V
Vico
Guest
I am glad that it is helpful. Another item from Pope Paul VI is in the same document item 45 (excerpt) showing that there is a different manner of existing:
And so Our Savior is present in His humanity not only in His natural manner of existence at the right hand of the Father, but also at the same time in the sacrament of the Eucharist “in a manner of existing that we can hardly express in words but that our minds, illumined by faith, can come to see as possible to God and that we must most firmly believe.”
W
wmscott
Guest
My apologies if this has been put forth… I am not theologian but do you believe in the Bible being the word of God? Matt 18: 20 “For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”. So as per your question “can reconcile that position with the many passages of scripture talking about Christ’s second coming as a future event?
Again, me not being a theologian, isn’t the second coming more about Christ coming back to judge the living and the dead?
G
Goya
Guest
You seem to be attempting to limit God, to the laws of physics.
Why can’t Christ be here…and come again?
Why can’t God create the world…then become Man, incarnate through a woman…and actually live…and DIE! …and rise again?
Why can’t the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be one God?
…I could certainly go on, but TBL is that attempting to discredit a fundamental Church doctrine with an argument grounded in physics (not saying that’s what your doing, but challenging it on that basis), pretty much opens the door to taking down the entire Church structure, according to the laws of physics (which could only happen, if you subordinate God and His Church, to the laws of physics–rather than realizing that God is the author of and Lord over, the laws of physics).
Interestingly, this reminds me of another absurd argument about the Real Presence, which I have not heard in years, other than articulated in the history books–and that is:
“How can Christ be present in the Eucharist…when He is seated at the right hand of the Father?”
As if “…seated at the right hand of the Father”, meant that Christ is literally, physically, sitting down, in a chair, fixed, incapable of moving…for centuries…until He figures it’s time to come again.
Similarly, “Christ will come again,” does not mean that He must not be here at all, and cannot be with us, until then.
If you believe that, than how do you pretend to have a relationship with Christ (presuming you do, as most Christians do)?
G
Goya
Guest
V
Vico
Guest
Haydock Commentary on Matt 18:20 is:
There am I in the midst of them. This is understood of such assemblies only, as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the Church of Christ. (St. Cyprian, de Unitate Ecclesiæ.) (Challoner)
— St. John Chrysostom, Theophylactus, and Euthymius explain the words in his name, thus assembled by authority received from Christ, in the manner appointed by him, or for his sake, and seeking nothing by his glory. Hence we may see what confidence we may place in an œcumenical council lawfully assembled. (Tirinus) (St. Gregory, lib. vii. Regist. Epist. cxii.)
C
catholic1seeks
Guest
The logic of this argument would mean that Christ could not be present in any sort of here on Earth. But Christians in general do not think this at all; the church as the mystical Body of Christ is not just a metaphor: It is an expression of a very deep reality that, in Christ, we become part of him. “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in them.” This quote from John 6 is very suggestive of the Eucharist presence, but even if one does not believe in transubstantiation or any kind of Eucharistic realism, Christ is clearly saying that his very life is activated within the believer.
So anyway, about the Eucharist. If there is something unique about the Eucharistic presence that is different from any other kind of Christ’s presence and so therefore renders the argument to be effective, I would like to know this difference.
But I would say a few other things:
The “second coming of Christ” is not indicative of a stage on earth that lacks Christ’s presence; rather, both the phrasing and the substance of this term is intimately connected with the Judgment and completion of the Kingdom of God as well as the inauguration of the New Heavens and New Earth. In other words, Christ’s second coming – “he will come again to judge the living and the dead” – is not teaching us so much in what manner Christ is or is not currently present in the church and the world. Rather, it’s focus is on consummation of all things in Christ.
Moreover, Christ as he was in his glorified body and as he will be in the “second coming” is simply not identical to the Eucharist. I mean, this is just obvious to anyone. No matter how intimate one’s spiritual life may be with the Holy Eucharist, that relationship lacks certain features that only Christ through his human body fulfills. The Eucharist does not speak. It does not listen, or feel – not through a typical human body, anyway. The Eucharist is Christ’s presence really and truly, but sacramentally so. That is, by giving himself to us in the form of bread and wine, Christ wills to sanctify us. There is a deliberate end to the Eucharist. Here recall the passage quoted above: “he who eats my flesh… abides in me and I in him” (John 6:56). Paul says that communion is a “participation” or “sharing” in the body and blood of Christ. He even says abuse of the Lord’: Supper is tantamount to profaning the “body and blood” of the Lord.
Ultimately there is no contradiction. For Christ is neither present in (1) the same manner or way nor (2) is he present for the same reasons. In the Eucharist, he is present sacramentally under the appearances of bread and wine for the sake of our sanctification. At the end of time, Christ will appear/return in a manner similar to as he was in his glorified body on Earth – as he is now in Heaven.
Lastly, consider the evidence for the Eucharistic presence. All historic, apostolic Christian traditions – those churches that can only be tied to the Apostles and their successors – maintain a firm believe in Christ’s presence. The biblical data is important, but anyone can twist scriptures to fit their own understandings. Seek the context by which the biblical writings were even canonized, in the first place: for the Eucharistic liturgy. The fourth century church that canonized the Bible was a thoroughly Eucharistic church. Trusting the church’s decision on the canon but not that church’s centuries-established practice of the Eucharist seems a bit faulty. Before the New Testament referred to writings, it referred to the Eucharist. The only place in the NT that in fact uses the term “New Testament/covenant” is during Christ’s institution of the Eucharist.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Another thought to ponder.
Jesus is seated in His body at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, I wonder, are we going to have to wait in line ten thousand years to see Jesus?
Jesus is seated in His body at the right hand of the Father. Therefore, I wonder, are we going to have to wait in line ten thousand years to see Jesus?
M
Mintaka
Guest
You are all wrong, because you are all treating “Coming” as an English word. 
“Parousia” or “adventus” is the official term for an official visit by a king or emperor. It is ‘putting in an appearance’ along with one’s entire court and entourage, with all the trimmings.
Think about the First Advent. Jesus came with His angels singing, with herald angels making announcements, with the shepherds officially called to greet and join Him at His coming, as well as a visit of foreign dignitaries giving homage. Jesus dwelt in His official residence (okay, not a palace, but still) until He became a man of an age to be authoritative, then embarked on a processional visit through the local lands. He also visited Herod and Pilate, as well as paying yearly visits to the Temple to see His people and honor His Father. It was all an official ruler visit, which lasted until the Ascension.
Think about the Second Advent. Jesus arrives with all His court of angels and saints. All the dead are called out to greet and join Him. All the living faithful are called out to greet and join Him. All the world sees Him in His glory. War against the baddies ensues. Judgment, rewards, and buttkicking ensues. That is also an official ruler visit.
Jesus’ Real Presence in the tabernacle is not “official” in this way. Therefore it does not count as a “parousia” or “adventus.” The Emperor of All is just paying us a private visit, without all the hoopla. He isn’t incognito, but He isn’t showing Himself off, either.
The same goes with Jesus’ presence whenever two or more are gathered in His Name, or His Word in the Bible, or with His ubiquity in all things. Just because He never leaves us, unofficially, doesn’t mean He is always here visibly and officially.
And that’s a good thing… because He has already promised that His next official visit means that He takes official notice of all the world’s shenanigans, and does something permanent about it.
Woe unto those who aren’t ready when the Boss comes back officially! He’s given us lots of second chances, He’s hung around with us like a friend, but someday He will lower the boom.
“Parousia” or “adventus” is the official term for an official visit by a king or emperor. It is ‘putting in an appearance’ along with one’s entire court and entourage, with all the trimmings.
Think about the First Advent. Jesus came with His angels singing, with herald angels making announcements, with the shepherds officially called to greet and join Him at His coming, as well as a visit of foreign dignitaries giving homage. Jesus dwelt in His official residence (okay, not a palace, but still) until He became a man of an age to be authoritative, then embarked on a processional visit through the local lands. He also visited Herod and Pilate, as well as paying yearly visits to the Temple to see His people and honor His Father. It was all an official ruler visit, which lasted until the Ascension.
Think about the Second Advent. Jesus arrives with all His court of angels and saints. All the dead are called out to greet and join Him. All the living faithful are called out to greet and join Him. All the world sees Him in His glory. War against the baddies ensues. Judgment, rewards, and buttkicking ensues. That is also an official ruler visit.
Jesus’ Real Presence in the tabernacle is not “official” in this way. Therefore it does not count as a “parousia” or “adventus.” The Emperor of All is just paying us a private visit, without all the hoopla. He isn’t incognito, but He isn’t showing Himself off, either.
The same goes with Jesus’ presence whenever two or more are gathered in His Name, or His Word in the Bible, or with His ubiquity in all things. Just because He never leaves us, unofficially, doesn’t mean He is always here visibly and officially.
And that’s a good thing… because He has already promised that His next official visit means that He takes official notice of all the world’s shenanigans, and does something permanent about it.
Woe unto those who aren’t ready when the Boss comes back officially! He’s given us lots of second chances, He’s hung around with us like a friend, but someday He will lower the boom.
M
Mintaka
Guest
Re: Mack Brislawn –
Heaven is outside time and space. It’s beyond the time to line up, and the space to line up in. Wherever you go, you’re already there.
In Heaven, the saints are (almost everybody) bodiless souls. They are not bound by time and don’t need space.
In eternal life when we get back our bodies, our resurrection bodies will be material but apparently not bound by the same rules of matter. If Jesus could walk through doors, presumably a line of people ten thousand miles long could all exist in the same point of space without any crowding.
It’s almost silly to try to imagine this stuff, because we don’t really understand the ground rules of a kind of world that doesn’t yet exist, or of the absolute simplicity and eternity of what things are like outside time/space. Speculation is fun, but it’s probably more sensible just to wait and see.
Heaven is outside time and space. It’s beyond the time to line up, and the space to line up in. Wherever you go, you’re already there.
In Heaven, the saints are (almost everybody) bodiless souls. They are not bound by time and don’t need space.
In eternal life when we get back our bodies, our resurrection bodies will be material but apparently not bound by the same rules of matter. If Jesus could walk through doors, presumably a line of people ten thousand miles long could all exist in the same point of space without any crowding.
It’s almost silly to try to imagine this stuff, because we don’t really understand the ground rules of a kind of world that doesn’t yet exist, or of the absolute simplicity and eternity of what things are like outside time/space. Speculation is fun, but it’s probably more sensible just to wait and see.
M
mattp0625
Guest
I agree there is not a contradiction here.
Matthews 25 describes the second coming of Jesus fairly well. Jesus will come along with His angels.
So, because the angel Gabriel already came down to earth to visit Mary and the angel Raphael already came to Tobias, should we therefore conclude they cannot be included in the second coming of Jesus? I doubt it.
Matthews 25 describes the second coming of Jesus fairly well. Jesus will come along with His angels.
So, because the angel Gabriel already came down to earth to visit Mary and the angel Raphael already came to Tobias, should we therefore conclude they cannot be included in the second coming of Jesus? I doubt it.
C
catholic1seeks
Guest
We are “all wrong”?? Hmm okay I don’t see how this post contradicts anything I said in my post but OKYou are all wrong, because you are all treating “Coming” as an English word.
“Parousia” or “adventus” is the official term for an official visit by a king or emperor. It is ‘putting in an appearance’ along with one’s entire court and entourage, with all the trimmings.
Think about the First Advent. Jesus came with His angels singing, with herald angels making announcements, with the shepherds officially called to greet and join Him at His coming, as well as a visit of foreign dignitaries giving homage. Jesus dwelt in His official residence (okay, not a palace, but still) until He became a man of an age to be authoritative, then embarked on a processional visit through the local lands. He also visited Herod and Pilate, as well as paying yearly visits to the Temple to see His people and honor His Father. It was all an official ruler visit, which lasted until the Ascension.
Think about the Second Advent. Jesus arrives with all His court of angels and saints. All the dead are called out to greet and join Him. All the living faithful are called out to greet and join Him. All the world sees Him in His glory. War against the baddies ensues. Judgment, rewards, and buttkicking ensues. That is also an official ruler visit.
Jesus’ Real Presence in the tabernacle is not “official” in this way. Therefore it does not count as a “parousia” or “adventus.” The Emperor of All is just paying us a private visit, without all the hoopla. He isn’t incognito, but He isn’t showing Himself off, either.
The same goes with Jesus’ presence whenever two or more are gathered in His Name, or His Word in the Bible, or with His ubiquity in all things. Just because He never leaves us, unofficially, doesn’t mean He is always here visibly and officially.
And that’s a good thing… because He has already promised that His next official visit means that He takes official notice of all the world’s shenanigans, and does something permanent about it.
Woe unto those who aren’t ready when the Boss comes back officially! He’s given us lots of second chances, He’s hung around with us like a friend, but someday He will lower the boom.
- Status