Real Presence // Does science support?

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We know we should never rely on science to prove matters of faith. But, we can let science & reason … speak to the Eucharist.

Catholics believe the Eucharist contains ALL of Christ … body and spirit. Christ taught us to eat/drink of his substance. He being the true bread of life.

Science tells us that in many cases we become what we eat. Overeat fats … one gets fat. Overdrink … get a pickled liver.
Exposure to radioctive ions, or lead … poisons blood, bone, and neural tissues.

We also know our various organs are constantly being transformed, regenerated at differing rates. Blood every 120 days, GI structures / liver in less than a year, bones over multiyear periods, even brain/neural tissues are undergoing a certain degree of nutritional/restructuring transitioning.

Genetic defects are always happening … from cosmic radiation, ageing, toxins, etc. Luckily the body can repair much of the damage and stave off potential tumor growths … before they hit exponential metastatic growth phases.

Our world is always looking for the latest scientific or natural nutritional supplementation. Fad diets, and homopathic cancer cures are forever being touted as latest cure for what ails us.

Nutrition science suggests Eucharistic Transubstantiation of Risen Christ can be incorporated by our body organs … over time. A weekly Mass offers us perhaps the best preventive medicine one could propose … for our actively reproducing organs and often troubled minds.

The only truly Supernatural body/spiritual supplement … if perceived rightly. Available only at your local Catholic Church.
 
BRB said:
The only truly Supernatural body/spiritual supplement … if perceived rightly.
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If perceived rightly? So it’s a matter of mind? If not perceived rightly it doesn’t work? Kinda sounds like a placebo.
 
BRB said:
We know we should never rely on science to prove matters of faith. But, we can let science & reason … speak to the Eucharist.

Catholics believe the Eucharist contains ALL of Christ … body and spirit. Christ taught us to eat/drink of his substance. He being the true bread of life.

Science tells us that in many cases we become what we eat. Overeat fats … one gets fat. Overdrink … get a pickled liver.
Exposure to radioctive ions, or lead … poisons blood, bone, and neural tissues.

We also know our various organs are constantly being transformed, regenerated at differing rates. Blood every 120 days, GI structures / liver in less than a year, bones over multiyear periods, even brain/neural tissues are undergoing a certain degree of nutritional/restructuring transitioning.

Genetic defects are always happening … from cosmic radiation, ageing, toxins, etc. Luckily the body can repair much of the damage and stave off potential tumor growths … before they hit exponential metastatic growth phases.

Our world is always looking for the latest scientific or natural nutritional supplementation. Fad diets, and homopathic cancer cures are forever being touted as latest cure for what ails us.

Nutrition science suggests Eucharistic Transubstantiation of Risen Christ can be incorporated by our body organs … over time. A weekly Mass offers us perhaps the best preventive medicine one could propose … for our actively reproducing organs and often troubled minds.

The only truly Supernatural body/spiritual supplement … if perceived rightly. Available only at your local Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

Science has absolutely nothing to do with the Eucharistic Presence - & in any case, that is** not** transubstantiation you’re working with, but a misunderstanding of it. The Eucharistic Presence can no more be discerned by inspecting our bodily organs than growth in grace could be: the reality of the EP is of the sacramental order - it is not of an order that could be detected by any scientific study.​

Spiritual realities cannot be detected by material means; any more than those of metaphysics can be. Scientific examination of the oils used to paint a picture is useless & worthless as a guide to the artistic worth of the picture, because a question about the value of a thing, is not the same sort of question as one about what it is made of. People are not reducible to what they are made of - nor is the Eucharistic Presence reducible to the biology of those who have received the object in which it is “located”. So the idea of calling in the sciences to discern what science is unable to discern, is materialist - it ignores the nature of what it wants to study: that is asking for trouble.
 
I have read somewhere that the human body weighs a little less after it dies (and before it releases all those nasty fluids) suggesting that there is a measurable quantity to the human spirit,supposing that this was true(I’m not suggesting that it is,…merely speculating) what if someone performed a similar experiment in reverse on the Eucharist?🤷
Although, I am inclined to believe what Gottle of Geer says.
 
BRB said:
We know we should never rely on science to prove matters of faith.
Click to expand...
Why not? I didn’t think faith was belief without evidence? I get chastised for assuming it is, but then we get constant posts assuming as much. Which is it?
 
That_one_guy said:
I have read somewhere that the human body weighs a little less after it dies (and before it releases all those nasty fluids) suggesting that there is a measurable quantity to the human spirit,supposing that this was true(I’m not suggesting that it is,…merely speculating) what if someone performed a similar experiment in reverse on the Eucharist?🤷
Although, I am inclined to believe what Gottle of Geer says.
Click to expand...
I imagine if the body weighs a little less after death, it is because of air that has left the lungs or something like that. The soul is not matter- it is a spiritual form, outside of the world of matter- and doesn’t have the properties of matter.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Science has absolutely nothing to do with the Eucharistic Presence -​

People are not reducible to what they are made of - nor is the Eucharistic Presence reducible to the biology of those who have received the object in which it is “located”. So the idea of calling in the sciences to discern what science is unable to discern, is materialist - it ignores the nature of what it wants to study: that is asking for trouble.
Click to expand...
Seems like you are suggesting Biology isn’t important to the Creator. Was not Christ the Great Physician, able to heal both body and soul ?
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Science has absolutely nothing to do with the Eucharistic Presence - & in any case, that is** not** transubstantiation you’re working with, but a misunderstanding of it. The Eucharistic Presence can no more be discerned by inspecting our bodily organs than growth in grace could be.​

Click to expand...
Thomas Aquinas taught : Transubstantiation takes place in the Mass, the Body of Christ … Christ becomes present by Transubstantiation, i.e. by the conversion of the substance of bread into the substance of His body.
Human flesh = atoms-molecules.

Human biology [natural laws] applied to Christ’s body …yet, so did the eternal material-spiritual essence [supernatural laws] – which man has no clue in regards to.

When we receive Eucharist … we receive both matter and spirit of Christ. Some Catholics believe we receive BOTH the human body that suffered, AND the Supernatural resurrected body. Obviously, the Spiritual nature of Christ is also received.

Agreed scientists can’t measure the supernatural effects yet … although they are attempting to measure psychological benefits of prayer.

But, Paul was inspired to teach in scripture that our material bodies could be ‘adversely effected’ by wrongly perceived Eucharistic hosts.

Google Richard Dawkins’ [evolutionary biologist] video /// entitled
Jaw-dropping talk on Queer Universe.
 
m134e5 said:
I imagine if the body weighs a little less after death, it is because of air that has left the lungs or something like that. The soul is not matter- it is a spiritual form, outside of the world of matter- and doesn’t have the properties of matter.
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I’ll accept that.
What about some sort of kirlian photography or spectro analisys type stuff to see if there may some sort of radiological evidence?
I know it sounds sort of silly.But,what the hey?
 
BRB said:
Thomas Aquinas taught : Transubstantiation takes place in the Mass, the Body of Christ … Christ becomes present by Transubstantiation, i.e. by the conversion of the substance of bread into the substance of His body.
Human flesh = atoms-molecules.

Human biology [natural laws] applied to Christ’s body …yet, so did the eternal material-spiritual essence [supernatural laws] – which man has no clue in regards to.

When we receive Eucharist … we receive both matter and spirit of Christ. Some Catholics believe we receive BOTH the human body that suffered, AND the Supernatural resurrected body. Obviously, the Spiritual nature of Christ is also received.

Agreed scientists can’t measure the supernatural effects yet … although they are attempting to measure psychological benefits of prayer.

But, Paul was inspired to teach in scripture that our material bodies could be ‘adversely effected’ by wrongly perceived Eucharistic hosts.

Google Richard Dawkins’ [evolutionary biologist] video /// entitled
Jaw-dropping talk on Queer Universe.
Click to expand...
Hi BRB,
Here’s an article (given by a poster on another thread) that I think you might find informative. Scroll down to the section titled “Transubstantiation”.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SHEEDEUC.HTM

Nita
 
Mersenne said:
Why not? I didn’t think faith was belief without evidence? I get chastised for assuming it is, but then we get constant posts assuming as much. Which is it?
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FAITH
–religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; “he lost his faith but not his morality”

–complete confidence in a person or plan etc; “he cherished the faith of a good woman”; “the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust”

–religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; “he was raised in the Baptist religion”; “a member of his own faith contradicted him”

–loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; “keep the faith”; “they broke faith with their investors”

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

You didn’t finish BRB’s quote…
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BRB:
We know we should never rely on science to prove matters of faith. But, we can let science & reason … speak to the Eucharist.
Click to expand...
Science & reason cannot speak to the Eucharist. The Eucharist is too ineffable for reason and too mysterious for science.
 
frankblahnik said:
FAITH
–religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; “he lost his faith but not his morality”

–complete confidence in a person or plan etc; “he cherished the faith of a good woman”; “the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust”

–religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; “he was raised in the Baptist religion”; “a member of his own faith contradicted him”

–loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; “keep the faith”; “they broke faith with their investors”

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Click to expand...
You failed to answer my question. Though you seem to be using faith to mean belief that is immune to reason, so that answers it well enough.
 
BRB said:
We know we should never rely on science to prove matters of faith. But, we can let science & reason … speak to the Eucharist.

.
Click to expand...
Sometimes anti-Catholics use science to attempt to disprove the Eucharist.

For instance, anti-Catholics may assert: “Science says something can’t be in two places a the same time. In that case, how can Christ be at the right hand of the Father, and at the same time be present on a Roman altar?”

Or, “How can He be physically present on everyone’s tongues at the same time?”

To Catholics these arguments sound silly, but apparently anti-Catholics take them seriously. Enough so to use on people who might be gullible enough to fall for them.

Catholics can take the high road and reply this way, “No, I don’t see either how He can be physically present in all those places at once. But, that does not matter because we walk by faith and not by sight.”

But, it turns out even their use of science to disprove the physical presence is ultimately unfounded. Because, we can actually give examples from science of where something is in two places at the same time. In quantum mechanics, a single photon apparently can go through two slits at the same time, hence being in two different places at the same time.

Another example is the hologram, which is a plate that when a coherent light beam (laser) is shown through it a three dimensional image is formed. Now, the interesting thing is that even if this plate is broken into pieces, the entire image can still be created from even the smallest piece. The whole image is present in each of the pieces of the hologram plate! If this is true for a hologram plate, how much easier it is for Christ to be present in each piece of the Sacrament!

How they place limits on what God can do.
 
When I steeped myself in prayer, I was transported in spirit to the Chapel, where I saw the Lord Jesus, exposed in the Monstrance. In place of the Monsrance I saw the glorious face of the Lord, and He said to me, “What you see in reality , these souls see through faith. Oh, how pleasing to Me is their great faith! You see, although there appears to be no trace of life in Me, in reality it is present in its fullness in each and every Host. But for Me to be able to act upon the soul, the soul must have faith. O how pleasing to Me is living faith!” (Divine Mercy In My Soul, 1420)
 
BRB said:
Thomas Aquinas taught : Transubstantiation takes place in the Mass, the Body of Christ … Christ becomes present by Transubstantiation, i.e. by the conversion of the substance of bread into the substance of His body.
Human flesh = atoms-molecules.

Human biology [natural laws] applied to Christ’s body …yet, so did the eternal material-spiritual essence [supernatural laws] – which man has no clue in regards to.

When we receive Eucharist … we receive both matter and spirit of Christ. Some Catholics believe we receive BOTH the human body that suffered, AND the Supernatural resurrected body. Obviously, the Spiritual nature of Christ is also received.

Agreed scientists can’t measure the supernatural effects yet … although they are attempting to measure psychological benefits of prayer.

But, Paul was inspired to teach in scripture that our material bodies could be ‘adversely effected’ by wrongly perceived Eucharistic hosts.

Google Richard Dawkins’ [evolutionary biologist] video /// entitled
Jaw-dropping talk on Queer Universe.
Click to expand...
Dear BRB,

Glad that you mentioned St.Thomas Aquinas. It is also important to include the rest of his teaching on substance and accidents. Accidents is a technical word refering to appearances or what we know through our senses…

Jesus Christ is present substantially under the appearances or signs (accidents) of bread This means that the color, texture and taste of bread is still there.

Today, when we watch the priest lift the Sacred Host, we can believe with certainty that the Person, Who is before us, is Jesus Christ. He is truly, substantially present. What our eyes see are only the appearances or the signs of bread. What we receive is Jesus Christ. What we taste and swallow are the appearances of bread.

Blessings,
grannymh
 
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