Real Presence in the Eucharist before Jesus death?

[Steven_Merten]

At the Last Supper Jesus tells us that the Eucharist is His body and blood. Jesus preforms the first Eucharist before His death. Do we all believe that Jesus is both physically present at the Last Supper Eucharistic cellabration and spiritually present in the Eucharist as in Eucharists of today?

The Spirit is not confined by physical time.

In Old Testament God tells us that Sins are Forgiven in Old Testament Peace Offerings. We know that the only way for God to forgive sins is through the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. If this were not true then there would be no need for Jesus death on the cross sacrifice. If Old Testament Peace offerings are not connected to Christ’s peace offering on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, and Old Testament Peace offerings do forgive sin as God says, then one would have to ask, why Christ’s death for the forgiveness of sins?

Are Old Testament Peace offerings, which God tells us forgive sin, empowered by Jesus death on the cross as the Last Supper and present day Eucharists are empowered by Jesus’ death on the cross?

Is Jesus present in God authorised Israelite Priest religious blood Peace offerings of Old Testament which God tells us forgive sins?

NAB MAT 26:26 The Holy Eucharist. During the meal Jesus took bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his disciples. **“Take this and eat it” he said, “this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them. “All of you must drink from it,” he said, “for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, to be poured out in behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins…”****NAB NUM 15:22 **

"When through inadvertence you fail to carry out any of these commandments which the LORD gives to Moses, and through Moses to you, from the time the LORD first issues the commandment down through your generations: if the community itself unwittingly becomes guilty of the fault of inadvertence, the whole community shall offer the holocaust of one young bull as a sweet-smelling oblation pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed cereal offering and libation, as well as one he-goat as a sin offering. Then the priest shall make atonement for the whole Israelite community; thus they will be forgiven the inadvertence for which they have brought their holocaust as an oblation to the LORD. Not only the whole Israelite community, but also the aliens residing among you, shall be forgiven, since the fault of inadvertence affects all the people. "However, if it is an individual who sins inadvertently, he shall bring a yearling she-goat as a sin offering, and the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for him who sinned inadvertently; when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven.

 

[stbruno]

NO, The Eucharist wasn’t instituted until Holy Thursday. The idea of the sacrifices are linked to parts of today’s spiritual offering at the sacrifice of the mass but Eucharist was not real until Jesus instituted it.

 

[Steven_Merten]

stbruno:

NO, The Eucharist wasn’t instituted until Holy Thursday. The idea of the sacrifices are linked to parts of today’s spiritual offering at the sacrifice of the mass but Eucharist was not real until Jesus instituted it.

Hello stbruno,

Do you believe Old Testament Peace offerings take away sins as God tells us?

 

[TEME525]

Steve, you seem to ask several questions so my answer may seem a little disjointed but hear goes.

First, in the Eucharist today, Christ isn’t present spiritually but the bread and wine are truely the Body and Blood of Christ. It’s not bread and wine but the body and blood of the Resurrected Lord, Christ Jesus.

As far as the Eucharist instituted at the Last Supper, theologians call it a “Prophecy in Action”, therefore, what the Apostles received at the Last Supper is the Same Body and Blood of Christ Jesus you and I receive at Communion.

As far as the blood sacrifices prior to calavry I would suggest to re read the letter to the Hebrews. Christ died for all men which would mean that His death was for those who came before his physical death. Also, in the theology of the Sacrament of Reconcilation, an essential element is true sorrow for one’s sins. It is my opinion that those who participated in those sacrifices sincerely, were forgiven. The difference is, however, those sacrifices didn’t have the sacramental nature that Reconciliation does. The animal sacrifices were actions or signs of contrition but could not, in them selves, effect forgiveness of sin as the Sacrament of Reconcilation does.

However, the Church, if you study the history of the Sacrament of Reconcilation, understood and taught that the offering of animal sacrifice had a special significance and relationship to our Sacrament in that it pointed to the Paschal Sacrifice itself.

 

[stbruno]

We hear in the scriptures the story of ABraham and Isaac…God asked him to sacrifice his son…this was a test of obedience, not an act of for remission of sin. When he proved himself to God surrendering to God’s commands it proved that he had complete trust in God…For that, .Abraham was rewarded. So sacrifice in the old testament is not merely done for remission of sin…I believe it was done as an offering to God as a symbol of their trust. I fully agree with the previous reply about reconciliation.

 

[Steven_Merten]

TEME525:

As far as the blood sacrifices prior to calavry I would suggest to re read the letter to the Hebrews. Christ died for all men which would mean that His death was for those who came before his physical death. Also, in the theology of the Sacrament of Reconcilation, an essential element is true sorrow for one’s sins. It is my opinion that those who participated in those sacrifices sincerely, were forgiven. The difference is, however, those sacrifices didn’t have the sacramental nature that Reconciliation does. The animal sacrifices were actions or signs of contrition but could not, in them selves, effect forgiveness of sin as the Sacrament of Reconcilation does.

Hello TEME,

Jesus indicates that the Jewish Sanhedrin also bear the power of the Keys to the kingdom to bind sin. Though it is not stated by Jesus, one would assume that the Sanhedrin would have the power to loost the sins they bind for the purpose of repentance.

NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

 

[TEME525]

Steve, I have to disagree with you on your point about Jesus’ acknowledgement of the power of the Sanhedrin on binding sin.
First and formost in Jewish thought the power to forgive sins is God’s alone and no human authority has that power. It would be blaspheme for anyone or institution to claim such a power. Remember, Jewish leaderswere ready to take action against Jesus wanting to put him to death because He would tell people their sins wereforgiven.

Secondly, it wasn’t in the make up of the Sanhedrin to do such (not that they would have thought they had the power in the first place). It was through God’s accptance of a ritual sacrifice that an individual and the sins of the nation were forgiven, not the power of a religious/political body.

Also, the forgiveness of sins was through the act of sacrifice which was the domaine of the cultic priesthood. The Sanhedrin was a governing body made up of Priest, Saducees, Scribes and Pharisees. The Sanhedrin, when the political situation allowed, could and did order the execution of an individual for religious crimes but I have never seen where it claimed the rite to forgive sins.

Finally, your quote from Matthew should be seen in the context of earlier passage in Matthew immediately following the Beatitudes.
Here the emphasis is on the behavior of Christians that could bring scandle to the community (the is somewhat of a parrallel to what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians) because of the treatment of each other (that is the way Christian treats his fellow Christian.

 

[Steven_Merten]

TEME525:

Secondly, it wasn’t in the make up of the Sanhedrin to do such (not that they would have thought they had the power in the first place). It was through God’s accptance of a ritual sacrifice that an individual and the sins of the nation were forgiven, not the power of a religious/political body.

Hello TEME,

Please clarify, is it through the power of Catholic Clergy that sins are forgiven through the Eucharist and Reconsiliation or is it through God’s acceptance of a ritual sacrifice?

Secondly, God’s word told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed His command they would die. God’s Word cannot lie. Jesus comes and dies in man’s place so sinning man can be forgiven of his sin making it possible for man to go to heaven. Are you saying that God can forgive sins outside of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? If this is possible, for what purpose did Jesus die on the cross?

 

[stbruno]

Obviously you are struggling for a clearer answer to this burning question, why don’t you refer it to one of the apologists in the other forum?

 

[jimmytoes]

Steven Merten:

Secondly, God’s word told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed His command they would die. God’s Word cannot lie. Jesus comes and dies in man’s place so sinning man can be forgiven of his sin making it possible for man to go to heaven. Are you saying that God can forgive sins outside of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross? If this is possible, for what purpose did Jesus die on the cross?

I would say that in the same way that Jesus’ sacrifice was applied “in anticipation” or outside of time to Mary’s Imaculate Conception, that His once for all sacrifice could be applied to OT situations.

However, I also choose to not limit God in His application of forgiveness. For the sinner of OT times, God’s Word was that they would be forgiven if these rituals were followed, etc… Was the sacrifice of the cross applied retro-actively? Saying “Yes” to this poll may help our understanding, but it in no way requires God to agree with us. He’s never the one to break a covenant.

 

[Steven_Merten]

jimmytoes:

I would say that in the same way that Jesus’ sacrifice was applied “in anticipation” or outside of time to Mary’s Imaculate Conception, that His once for all sacrifice could be applied to OT situations.

However, I also choose to not limit God in His application of forgiveness. For the sinner of OT times, God’s Word was that they would be forgiven if these rituals were followed, etc… Was the sacrifice of the cross applied retro-actively? Saying “Yes” to this poll may help our understanding, but it in no way requires God to agree with us. He’s never the one to break a covenant.

Hello jimmytoes,

Does not Jesus’s gospel, like the Father’s, sound limiting on who will be forgiven through Jesus blood?

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
NAB JOH 5:27

"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."
NAB REV 22:12"Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood."
NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking). . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.