Real Presence In The Eucharist & Priest's Ability to Transform Bread & Wine To Body And Blood

[JimG]

As to “biblical evidence,” I would just note that the Church did not wait for the New Testament to be written before celebrating the Eucharist. They did what Jesus had instructed them to do.

 

[OneMoreTime]

Yes, fitting. Thank you. I am still learning Catholic speak. I knew there was a better way to say it. I love how precise and consistent Catholics are in there use of language.

 

[Mary888]

through a priest who is a sinner?

Not through the person of the priest, as if he was a wizard. But through the Charisma God Himself created for the priest to possess in order to dedicate the Eucharist. Like an extension of God, dedicated to the said priest. The extension - the gift of the Holy Spirit - is not a possession of the priest but that of God, Who is of course sinless.
So the act of dedication is sinless through the Charisma God shares with His priests in the Church.

 

[Jesuslover]

The presence of Jesus is not there.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you” (John 6:53 KJV).

Mary like everyone else who has walked this earth has sinned.

There is no biblical evidence to support this. The bible does not say either way whether Mary was sinful or not.

What I believe about Priest’s ability to transform bread &wine to body and blood.

The priest does not transform the bread & wine into body and blood. The priest asks the Holy Spirit to come down through the words of consecration.

Impossible no man can do that.

Jesus did it.

 

[Jesuslover]

Jesus meant it symbolically

That’s a bit bold of you to assume, isn’t it?

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

'When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin (referring to the immaculate conception) How then, can Christ enter into the Eucharist with his real and physical presence, through a priest who is a sinner? If He HAD to enter the world through sinless flesh, how is He able to do so during consecration through a sinner?"

Christ, God, is Being Itself. So the Eucharist is Being Itself.
The Priest is a created being.

Being itself enters into our lives at the Eucharist at every single Mass in a physical way. God , Being Itself, is always present in the world in a non physical way. Regardless of the sin existing in and of the world.

God appointed Priests in the Old Testament to do the work He required. God appointed people to make His Ark, make the tent, make the poles to carry Him, and also appointed people to carry the Ark, only certain people. If anyone else touched the Ark, they were dead.

God appointed Priests specifically and these were also sinners. As were those who carried Him in His Ark.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

At the Last Supper recorded in the Bible Jesus meant it symbolically He didn’t literally turn the bread into flesh and the wine into blood.

It is literal. Catholics know the truth of this, it is literal, Jesus literally turned the bread and wine into Being Itself, into God. He is God.

 

[CatholicSooner]

Greg1:

When Christ came into the world via Mary, Catholic teaching says she (Mary) was conceived without sin, so Christ would not enter this world through sin

Are you sure that this premise is correct?

The CCC seems to give a different reason for the Immaculate Conception.

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace”.133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.

Yeah I don’t think Church teaching is that Mary was without sin because Jesus could only become flesh through a sinless vessel. I do get where she is coming from though. I just think that premise is incorrect.

 

[CatholicSooner]

Christ does not enter the Eucharist through the priest. During the consecration the priest says,

Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you: by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought to you for consecration, that they may become the Body and Blood of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate these mysteries. (Eucharistic Prayer III)

In other words, the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus by the Holy Spirit at the invitation of the priest. Some priests make a noticeable pause after saying these words, most, unfortunately don’t. It is in that pause (however brief) that transubstantiation takes place. The elevation of the host takes place immediately after these words as the bread is then the body of Christ.

I do not believe this to be correct. I was taught that transubstantiation takes place at the words “This is my body”…

The Prayer you listed is to consecrate the host for the transubstation

 

[CatholicSooner]

Jesuslover:

theorangeandblue:

The presence of Jesus is not there.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you” (John 6:53 KJV).

Mary like everyone else who has walked this earth has sinned.

There is no biblical evidence to support this. The bible does not say either way whether Mary was sinful or not.

What I believe about Priest’s ability to transform bread &wine to body and blood.

The priest does not transform the bread & wine into body and blood. The priest asks the Holy Spirit to come down through the words of consecration.

Impossible no man can do that.

Jesus did it.

At the Last Supper recorded in the Bible Jesus meant it symbolically He didn’t literally turn the bread into flesh and the wine into blood.

Are you Catholic?

And he didn’t just say it at the Last Supper. I would suggest you research the Bread of Life discourse and the verbs used during the discourse. And the reaction of his disciples at his words

 

[goout]

There is no biblical evidence to support this. The bible does not say either way whether Mary was sinful or not.

Yes there is as written in Romans-

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23.

Everyone has sinned.

Even Jesus?

 

[goout]

goout:

theorangeandblue:

There is no biblical evidence to support this. The bible does not say either way whether Mary was sinful or not.

Yes there is as written in Romans-

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23.

Everyone has sinned.

Even Jesus?

Jesus didn’t sin He is the Son of God. Jesus was the payment for our sins there was no fault in Him. Jesus took our place on the cross. Jesus didn’t deserve to die we do.

Yes but you quoted a passage as definitive for “everyone”.

Yes there is as written in Romans-

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23.

Everyone has sinned.

Is Jesus not fully human?
By who’s authority do you declare Jesus exempt from your passage?

 

[Greg1]

We’re well off topic here (BUT!) @ Goout - How do you reconcile 1st Peter 2 vs 22 with Romans:
“He never sinned, nor ever deceived anyone.”

 

[goout]

We’re well off topic here (BUT!) @ Goout - How do you reconcile 1st Peter 2 vs 22 with Romans:
“He never sinned, nor ever deceived anyone.”

I take them together in context (that’s the point I’m trying to elucidate)
That context includes the community those scriptures were written in, with it’s authoritative Tradition, The Church.
The poster is taking a passage out of context, in isolation. Hopefully it is demonstrated that proof texting scripture has limitations.

 

[Greg1]

So we can use that same logic with your original statement. Out of context. Got it.

 

[goout]

So we can use that same logic with your original statement. Out of context. Got it.

I’m sorry I see that I mixed up the quote attribution when I did the quote function. I corrected it.

 

[AlbMagno]

As others have said, Jesus as God is omnipresent spiritually in the Universe, but not particularly (locally) nor physically.

In the Eucharist, the substance (nature/identity, what makes something what it is) of the Body and Blood of Jesus is present in what before was bread and wine. And so in the Eucharist Jesus is present not only globally, as an omnipresent spirit, but also physically, like if you met Him in person in 1st Century. It’s a special presence.

 

[Gorgias]

At the Last Supper recorded in the Bible Jesus meant it symbolically He didn’t literally turn the bread into flesh and the wine into blood.

Well… ok – if you’re gonna make that assertion, would you mind substantiating why you think it was ‘symbolic’ and not ‘literal’?

The bible does not say either way whether Mary was sinful or not.

“Kecharitomene”. It’s in the grammar.

Yes there is as written in Romans-

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23.

Everyone has sinned.

I think I see the problem: you’re missing the point of the Greek text. I don’t know if that’s because you’re working with an inaccurate translation, or whether you’re dealing with a good translation and understanding it in an imprecise manner. Here’s what Paul is doing in Romans: he’s comparing two groups – Jews and Gentiles. And, yes: both groups have sinned. That doesn’t imply that all in each group has personal sin. Here’s the easy counter-example: do those who die as infants have personal sin? If not, then how can you say “all have sinned”, according to your interpretation? See what I mean?

Jesus didn’t sin He is the Son of God.

Sure, but you need to pay closer attention to the text:
Romans 3:22-23 – “For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

Romans 10:12 – "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

See it now? The distinction that’s being drawn, in the context of Rom 3:23 which you’re quoting, is a distinction “between Jew and Greek”. Jesus is a Jew. He didn’t sin. So, your claim doesn’t hold, since Jesus is part of one of the groups Paul is pointing to.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

A lot of good responses. We must not forget how critical, crucial the WORD OF GOD is in all things VISIBLE and INVISIBLE begins the Scripture. It is not the priest himself that becomes the cause and effect in transubstantiation but by the WORD of God HIMSELF who became flesh by the WORD of GOD in both the Virgin birth and the Eucharist. What is interestimg most non Catholics can relate this action of God in Eucharist just by thee Word of God. In short explain the WORD of God is how creation began, continues with the promise by the Word of God to eternity, Amen

 

[Michael_Anthony]

Also, the ancient Jews had a very different concept of “remembrance” we use it to simply mean “to think about a past event” but the ancient Jews “remembered” the Passover, for them “remembrance” means to make present again, they literally re-experienced the Passover, as though they were in Egypt themselves, with the same degree of necessity to obey. It was now their turn to be enslaved, contained to their rooms for safety. It is in this way that the Mass recalls the Last Supper, all of Christ’s Passion is in Kiros time (God’s time, which is beyond time and space), enabling it to be simultaneously applied to events past, but also events future, so when we remember (through the Mass) the sacrifice is made present, active, and applicable to the modern world, though necessarily through one who would lead, offer, and officiate the sacrifice as was necessary in the Temple, and durring the celebration of the Passover.