Real Presence\level of presence in people

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scylla

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I was just at a liturgy meeting, the first I have been to and a couple things came out as strange to me… This is just one of them…

The leader said that there are several levels of presence of Jesus with the first being the presence of Jesus in the assembly. Then the Word, then the Priest then the Eucharist.
To me this sounds backwards and though it doesn’t deny the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist it seems to diminish Him below the presence of Him in the people.
I remember reading about this somewhere and I seem to remember that the primary Presence of Jesus is in the Blessed Sacrament.

Our leader said this is what Vatican II said but I am pretty sure it didn’t. I didn’t say anything because I wanted to check into it first.

Thanks
God Bless
Scylla
 
😃 I guess it all depends on how you look at it, Scylla. People always wondered why I finished my meal in a certain way, eating certain foods first, and in orderly purpose, moving to another item on my plate. Truth is, I always ate the things I liked the least first, leaving the very best for last.

I don’t see a problem, for the priest is probably beginning with the least important first, saving the best for last.
 
It’s backwards if you understand “first” to mean foremost, or something akin to “primary”. But if you think of “first” as the lowest rung then it all works out.
 
No, it has long been recognized.

On the presence of Christ in the faithful, Christ said that whenever two or more are gathered in His Name, He is there. That has been true since the dawn of time.

Christ is also present in the Scripture, as Christ is the Divine Logos. The Word in Liturgy is a reflection of His Presence. Scripture itself is not a story about someone, it is an encounter with someone, the Living Word.

Likewise, Christ is present in His Divinity everywhere in the Universe.

But there is no mode of presence that equals the of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the Substantial Presence of Christ, He is Present in the Eucharist in the exact same way as He is Present in Heaven.

In the Universe, in the faithful, in the Word, Christ is Present exclusively in His Divinity. In the Eucharist, He is Present in His Body, Blood, Soul AND Divinity.
 
Sacrosanctum Concilium
  1. To accomplish so great a work, Christ is always present in His Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the sacrifice of the Mass, not only in the person of His minister, “the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross” (20), but especially under the eucharistic species. By His power He is present in the sacraments, so that when a man baptizes it is really Christ Himself who baptizes (21). He is present in His word, since it is He Himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church. He is present, lastly, when the Church prays and sings, for He promised: “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matt. 18:20) .
 
The GIRM lists them in ascending order:
  1. At Mass—that is, the Lord’s Supper—the People of God is called together, with a priest presiding and acting in the person of Christ, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord, the Eucharistic Sacrifice.37 For this reason Christ’s promise applies in an outstanding way to such a local gathering of the holy Church: “Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst” (Mt 18:20). For in the celebration of Mass, in which the Sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated,38 Christ is really present in the very liturgical assembly gathered in his name, in the person of the minister, in his word, and indeed substantially and continuously under the eucharistic species.39
 
Thank you Genesis,

it did sound a bit new-agey when we elevate ourselves to be “Christ” with the implication that we now become God to each other.

It might make someone feel good but I know it is an insult to God and based off of a desire for an elevation of self.

She did use that one quote “we become what we consume” in such a way that implies that we are becoming Christ. This is very close to the normal Catholic way, of us understanding Christ transforming us to be like Him, to be tabernacles of Him and for Him to unite us as the one Body of Christ. But this is less and different than the Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Thanks for the reference and a good explanation of how it should be expressed.

God Bless
Scylla
 
CCC

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 **"This presence is called ‘real’ **- by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201
 
scylla said:
Thank you Genesis,

it did sound a bit new-agey when we elevate ourselves to be “Christ” with the implication that we now become God to each other.

It might make someone feel good but I know it is an insult to God and based off of a desire for an elevation of self.

She did use that one quote “we become what we consume” in such a way that implies that we are becoming Christ. This is very close to the normal Catholic way, of us understanding Christ transforming us to be like Him, to be tabernacles of Him and for Him to unite us as the one Body of Christ. But this is less and different than the Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Thanks for the reference and a good explanation of how it should be expressed.

God Bless
Scylla
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Scylla, it really sounds like you might have it the wrong way around and she didn’t mean “first” to be “best” at all, she more likely simply meant “first” as in it is the first thing that happens at Mass - we gather together as a community with Jesus being present in the gathering, as He said He is.
 
I wish I had it wrong, but I recorded it just to be sure and it was reiterated in the way she presented the liturgy. (she likes all the standard stuff that leads to this sort of thing)

The good thing is that she believes in the Real Presence also as this is for her what makes us Jesus. So all is not lost, as she does care about having some reverence.

I won’t post more information as I don’t want to air my parishes dirty laundry, I just wanted to clarify what was the correct position.

God Bless
Scylla
 
scylla said:
I wish I had it wrong, but I recorded it just to be sure and it was reiterated in the way she presented the liturgy. (she likes all the standard stuff that leads to this sort of thing)

The good thing is that she believes in the Real Presence also as this is for her what makes us Jesus. So all is not lost, as she does care about having some reverence.

I won’t post more information as I don’t want to air my parishes dirty laundry, I just wanted to clarify what was the correct position.

God Bless
Scylla
Click to expand...
In other words you only can and will give us your subjective interpretation of her views, and not the objective evidence upon which you base it? 🤷

Don’t know what you expect us to make of this or do with the information, then.
 
LilyM said:
In other words you only can and will give us your subjective interpretation of her views, and not the objective evidence upon which you base it? 🤷

Don’t know what you expect us to make of this or do with the information, then.
Click to expand...
The point of the thread was to clarify if she indeed was mistaken. I understood her correctly. I can certainly send you an MP3 of the statements if you so desire, but please just trust me, I work hard to be a faithful Catholic, who subjects himself to the Church.
I got the information I needed, as Genesis kindly provided proof that I should have a talk with her.

I have no need to misrepresent others as I am Catholic. A faithful Catholic has no fear of truth and should always stand up to dissenters.

Thank you for your comments,
God Bless
Scylla
 
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