Real Presence???

[youngsaint]

I was at confirmation the other night, and we were talking about the Last Supper. Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I know that there is a real presence in the most blessed sacrament, so is there some other meaning you guys can decipher from this?

Sorry but I forgot how we got on the topic, (I kinda zone out)

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I know that there is a real presence in the most blessed sacrament, so is there some other meaning you guys can decipher from this?

Perhaps that the person saying it isn’t Catholic and doesn’t believe in the Real Presence? (Who said it?)

The only other thing I can think of is that you mis-heard it, since you were zoning out anyway.

Were you “at Confirmation” (I hope this wasn’t a priest or bishop speaking!) or at Confirmation class (I hope this wasn’t a catechist speaking!)?

 

[puzzleannie]

I was at confirmation the other night, and we were talking about the Last Supper. Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I know that there is a real presence in the most blessed sacrament, so is there some other meaning you guys can decipher from this?

Sorry but I forgot how we got on the topic, (I kinda zone out)

who said? the Bishop preaching before confirming you? I hope not because he should be reported to the Vatican for preaching heresy.

are you speaking of your CCD class, are you sure your teacher said this? He should be reported to the pastor for the same reason.

do you mean another member of your class? you should ask the question directly of the teacher so the proper teaching can be given

of all times to zone out during your Confirmation is not one of them

 

[PaulAndrew83]

I know you are only attending your confirmation class so what I might say might be quite difficult to understand.

The church teaches something called Transubstantiation. To know what this means you need to know a little bit about moderate realist philosophy.

In this philosophy anything that exists has substance and accidents. The accidents stand for the qualities that give something its particular existence. Things like colour, taste, and even molecular or atomic structure give something its particular existence.

The substance of a thing is that which exists universally.

For example if you were to think on a chair the chair would be existing in your mind but not in a particular way.

Son what happens at consecration?

Well all the accidents [shall we say appearance] of bread remains but the substance of the bread has changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. So beneath [or hidden I guess] what we would physically detect as bread resides Our Lord whole and entire.

We should never use the word symbolic with regards to this Sacrament unless we were only saying that “It may appear to be symbolic to us because we cannot see Our Blessed Lord”, or something of this kind.

I do apologise if it is too difficult to follow but you may as well be familiar with the terms the Church uses.

God Bless

Paul

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I will allow this topic to remain in L&S forum within the context of what the OP’s heard in confirmation class. This thread is not for debating the real presence in the Eucharist.

 

[OraLabora]

Interestingly, as a chemist, I can say that there really isn’t much difference between bread, wine and human flesh at an elemental level, and even at the level of some of the molecules of each. It really truly is “accidental” in that substantially the same matter takes on different appearances.

Which is probably why the concept of the Real Presence was never really an intellectual obstacle for me.

 

[youngsaint]

Perhaps that the person saying it isn’t Catholic and doesn’t believe in the Real Presence? (Who said it?)

The only other thing I can think of is that you mis-heard it, since you were zoning out anyway.

Were you “at Confirmation” (I hope this wasn’t a priest or bishop speaking!) or at Confirmation class (I hope this wasn’t a catechist speaking!)?

It was a catechist speaking, at a class, and I remember now, we were talking about the graces received through the sacraments.

 

[youngsaint]

of all times to zone out during your Confirmation is not one of them

I know , but all my class does is talk, and I know all of the stuff that he tries to teach us.

 

[youngsaint]

I know you are only attending your confirmation class so what I might say might be quite difficult to understand.

The church teaches something called Transubstantiation. To know what this means you need to know a little bit about moderate realist philosophy.

In this philosophy anything that exists has substance and accidents. The accidents stand for the qualities that give something its particular existence. Things like colour, taste, and even molecular or atomic structure give something its particular existence.

The substance of a thing is that which exists universally.

For example if you were to think on a chair the chair would be existing in your mind but not in a particular way.

Son what happens at consecration?

Well all the accidents [shall we say appearance] of bread remains but the substance of the bread has changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. So beneath [or hidden I guess] what we would physically detect as bread resides Our Lord whole and entire.

We should never use the word symbolic with regards to this Sacrament unless we were only saying that “It may appear to be symbolic to us because we cannot see Our Blessed Lord”, or something of this kind.

I do apologise if it is too difficult to follow but you may as well be familiar with the terms the Church uses.

God Bless

Paul

Excellent way of putting it

I will allow this topic to remain in L&S forum within the context of what the OP’s heard in confirmation class. This thread is not for debating the real presence in the Eucharist.

Yes sir! salute

 

[centurionguard]

I was at confirmation the other night, and we were talking about the Last Supper. Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I know that there is a real presence in the most blessed sacrament, so is there some other meaning you guys can decipher from this?

Sorry but I forgot how we got on the topic, (I kinda zone out)

Part One

The only deciphering relevant to this topic concerning the Real Presence is that there is NO symbolism in describing what is truly (“super-substantially real”).

One can “begin” in understanding by being properly catechized in the Mystery and belief of the Real Presence through the gift of faith and humility.

Saint Thomas Aquinas often referred to as the Angelic Doctor of the Church had the following to say about the “Real Presence” in one of the greatest Sermons ever preached on Maundy (“Holy”) Thursday in 1264 AD; which was probably said in Orvieto, Italy in the presence of Pope Urban IV who also in the Autumn of that same year instituted the Feast of Corpus Christi for which Saint Thomas composed the liturgical offices and various hymns. This Sermon is preserved in the 14th century manuscript in the library of Troyes, Italy.

The Sermon is as follows:

**The joyful memory of the feast we keep today reminds us that it is our duty and our privilege ever to find our gladness in praising the most sacred Body of Christ. Is there any more fitting employment to Christians than to magnify the abyss of divine charity?

Yours is the wonderful work, O Christ, whose power is without bounds in your faithful kindness. You yourself recall the memory of former wonders. You have in this “sacred food” and super-substantial bread wonderfully found a means and the way for those who become ill by eating of the forbidden tree and lost thereby the unfading and imperishable crown of everlasting glory to be healed through eating the spotless pure Lamb.

Most truly wonderful and utterly praiseworthy is God’s goodness towards us. In His generous and untiring love He meets us and greets His children in the sacrament which is the goal and final realization of all the acts and sacrifice: He abides among them ceaselessly until the end of this world. He provides us for our refreshment the “Bread of Angels;” He pours out for our drink (“though we are only His adopted children, and not of His blood”) strong wine, His Son’s Blood.

Humility which Christ so praised, we know pleases God. In this sacrament He truly preaches by the example of an incomparable humility which does not turn aside from any dwelling but consents to come as a guest to all and sundry, even unworthy hearts.
In the breaking of bread, You are neither broken nor divided. You are eaten, but like the burning bush, You are not consumed. No, You remain whole and entire as that ancient meal and oil which wonderfully lasted without diminishing or becoming spoiled.*

 

[centurionguard]

Part Two

**O marvelous sacrament in which God is hidden, and our Jesus, like a new Moses, conceals His face under the creatures made by Him! May every generation praise Him! Wonderful is this sacrament in which, in virtue of the words of institution, the species of bread and wine are changed into flesh and blood charged with divine power; appearances remain in their proper substance; and without violating the law of nature, “the one and whole Christ Himself is present in different places because of the consecration as a voice is heard and exist in many places, continuing unchanged and remaining inviolable when partaken nor being diminished at all. He is whole and entire and perfect in each and every fragment of the host, just as a hundred mirrors multiply the same visual appearance reflection.

Christ is fittingly offered by the faithful under the twofold species, though He truly exists under either, to signify that the salvation He imparts to humanity affects both parts of our being, soul and body, and to remind us that His bitter passion was likewise twofold.

O how unspeakable is this sacrament which sets the affection ablaze with the fire of charity and sprinkles our home’s lintel, on both doorpost (“lips”), with the immaculate Lamb’s blood! What wholesome provision for our dangerous journey we receive in this food! What strengthening manna enriches the traveler! It invigorates the weak, brings back health to the sick; it increases virtue, makes grace abound, purges away vices, refreshes the soul, renews life in the languid, binds together all the faithful in the union of charity! This Sacrament of Faith also inspires hope and increases charity. It is the central pillar of the Church, the consolation of the dead, and the fulfillment of Christ’s Mystical Body.

O table of the Infinite God! The many wonders of this Feast amaze the mind, more pleasing than any form of grace, more desirable than any other food. In this banquet Christ entertained those who were His earthly companions who sat at the table. O living Bread, begotten in heaven, prepared in the Virgin’s womb, baked in the furnace of the Cross, offered on the Altar disguised as a wafer, strengthen my heart to be generous, keep it faithful on life’s journey, gladden my mind, and purify my thoughts.

This is the True Bread which while being eaten is not consumed, without losing its life-giving energy. Its power saves and completes the work of (“redemption”). It is the source of life and fountain of grace. It forgives sin and weakens the grip of selfish desires. The faithful discover here their nourishment, a food for the soul, whose intelligence is enlightened, whose affections are inflamed, whose deflects are purified, whose longings are lifted up. The smallness of the host reminds us to be humble; its roundness to be obedient; its simplicity to appreciate what is essential; its whiteness to be pure; its unleavened quality to be patient and kind. The fact that it is produced by baking reminds us to be charitable; its inscription calls us to be discreet; its appearances to our senses to remain steadfast and enduring; its circularity to round our life in holiness.

O rich unleavened bread! O hiding place of the highest power! Though what we see is small, what is concealed there is wonderful and excellent. O Body and Soul of the Divinity, divine being, inseparable from both! This is the work of your power, Lord. You alone, who do great and wonderful deeds, transcend our senses and understanding, exceeding our reason’s capacity and imagination. You yourself Lord instituted this sacrament and entrusted it to your disciples.

Let no one; therefore, approach this wondrous Altar without reverent devotion and fervent love, without true penitence or without remembering His redemption. For it is the pure Lamb that is eaten in the unleavened bread. Approach the Lord’s Supper, the altar table of wholeness and holiness, as a child of faith, in such a way that at the end of your life you may enter into the wedding feast of the Lamb. There we shall behold the King of Glory and the Lord of Hosts in His beauty, and shall taste the bread of our Father’s kingdom; our host shall be our Lord Jesus Christ, whose power and reign are without end. Amen. **

 

[PaulAndrew83]

Interestingly, as a chemist, I can say that there really isn’t much difference between bread, wine and human flesh at an elemental level, and even at the level of some of the molecules of each. It really truly is “accidental” in that substantially the same matter takes on different appearances.

Which is probably why the concept of the Real Presence was never really an intellectual obstacle for me.

Out of Interest, would you confirm for me as a physicist what level you would expect to be able to identify things such as flesh and bread etc…

I would assume for complicated structures that a certain number of molecules would be required.

Paul

 

[OraLabora]

Out of Interest, would you confirm for me as a physicist what level you would expect to be able to identify things such as flesh and bread etc…

I would assume for complicated structures that a certain number of molecules would be required.

Paul

Well, most definitely at the cellular level. Probably at the level of proteins, and of course DNA.

Proteins are of course amino acid chains and you could probably hydrolyze bread proteins into many of the same amino acids as human flesh proteins. But once hydrolyzed you’d hardly be able to know where they came from.

Ditto for the nucleic acids in DNA. At the atomic level of course we are largely talking carbon chemistry or organic chemistry. So you could argue “mostly the same stuff, rearranged”.

 

[OraLabora]

Incidentally I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t think Transubstantiation is a mystery.

It is.

I am just saying that conceptually, my scientific background makes me realize that there are many similarities between flesh and bread, both basically organic matter made from the same building blocks.

 

[jstradtner]

I was at confirmation the other night, and we were talking about the Last Supper. Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I help out with a confirmation class and we had a speaker last week who said those same words just to see who was paying attention. He then went on to state that it was NOT symbolic, but the true presence of Christ. Maybe that is what happened in your class. Peace!

 

[peary1]

I was at confirmation the other night, and we were talking about the Last Supper. Almost off the topic, he said, “remember, he said ‘this is my body, this is my blood’, symbolically speaking.”

I know that there is a real presence in the most blessed sacrament, so is there some other meaning you guys can decipher from this?

Sorry but I forgot how we got on the topic, (I kinda zone out)

I don’t remember reading the bible verse with Jesus saying “This is a symbol of my body, this is a symbol of my blood.”