Real Presence?

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Hello Everyone!

A Protestant friend of mine asked me about The Real Presence of the Eucharist.

Now, I understand it. I believe it. But I CANNOT explain it. I either make it sound very symbolic or cannibalistic.

So, I would like to ask if anyone had any answers or methods of explaining Real Presence.

Thanks in advance. 🙂
It is simple. Christ walked on water, He commanded the seas, He showed His glory before His death, He raised the dead, He changed water into wine. Christ’s words create. He has power over all things. When at the Last Supper when he took bread and said “This IS my body” it was so. You have to take Christ at His Word, it is what he says it is. Even in John 6 they didn’t want to believe Him because of how powerful He was speaking of His actual Flesh and Blood.
It is what He says it is.
 
In all of science, is there anything which depends on acceptance that things have ‘substance’ as well as ‘accidents’ or ‘attributes’? if not, might it not be wise to abandon this particular piece of ancient philosophy to explain an unexplainable belief?
So you know what quarks are actually made of? You know the substance of quarks? Of photons? Science ONLY cares about accidents/attributes.
 
I subcribe to a number of church publications. One is US Catholicwhich often carries a poll of Catholics. As I recall a year or so ago a poll of Catholics indicated that 52% in the USA do not believe in transubstantiation, the real presence, that the bread and wine become substantially the body and blood of Christ.
If this is true, have that 52% automatically excommunicated themselves from the Church? When they receive the Eucharist are they in some sense offending Christ?
 
A great and wonderful CD, that really sheds light on the REAL PRESENCE of JESUS in the EUCHARIST Is called : JESUS AND THE JEWISH ROOTS OF THE EUCHARIST by DR BRANT PITRE…

In it he explains that the foreshadowing of the Passover ( in Egypt!) the Manna ( in the desert!) and the Bread of the Presence ( in the tabernacle!) were all foreshadowings of the everlasting covenant that Jesus instituted…

For instance… When you say OUR FATHER prayer… The original wording of GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, from the Greek translation, should be read as GIVE US THIS DAY OUR SUPERSUBSTANTIAL BREAD… Referring to the Manna in the desert… It is absolutely an amazing cd… You should check it out! May God bless you and ALL of your loved ones! 😃
This is an excellent talk. I don’t know where else you can find this, but I got a lighthouse catholic media cd with it. There’s also a study guide by Dr Pitre online if you search it.
 
I subcribe to a number of church publications. One is US Catholicwhich often carries a poll of Catholics. As I recall a year or so ago a poll of Catholics indicated that 52% in the USA do not believe in transubstantiation, the real presence, that the bread and wine become substantially the body and blood of Christ.
Code:
If this is true, have that 52% automatically excommunicated themselves from the Church? When they receive the Eucharist are they in some sense offending Christ?
I bet most of those 52% don’t understand what transubstantiation is. I would also bet that many deny it because they don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling when receiving the Eucharist. Just because you don’t feel anything physical does not mean there is an absence of the spiritual.
 
Hello Everyone!

A Protestant friend of mine asked me about The Real Presence of the Eucharist.

Now, I understand it. I believe it. But I CANNOT explain it. I either make it sound very symbolic or cannibalistic.

So, I would like to ask if anyone had any answers or methods of explaining Real Presence.

Thanks in advance. 🙂
I am a scientist and I try to think too hard about this. Basically, before the consecration, you have bread. Afterwards, you have Christ, but it still looks like bread. It is a miracle. There is no need to bring particle physics or chemistry into the discussion.
 
I would say that is not a good explanation. Because a person with 3 limbs is still a person no matter what. Its not like they have changed in any level.
That was the point that they haven’t changed on any substantial level. A person when they lose a limb is different on the level of accidence but not of substance. Maybe I didn’t make that clear enough. 🙂
 
Hello Everyone!

A Protestant friend of mine asked me about The Real Presence of the Eucharist.

Now, I understand it. I believe it. But I CANNOT explain it. I either make it sound very symbolic or cannibalistic.

So, I would like to ask if anyone had any answers or methods of explaining Real Presence.

Thanks in advance. 🙂
Firstly the concept is one protestants accept.

Ask your friend if they look like a pagan that lives across the road from them.
The answer would be a yes. There is nothing scientifically or physically that distinguishes the two.
But what is different between a Christian and a pagan?

It is the Holy Spirit within them.
The Protestant invited the Holy Spirit into themselves.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life.

I have written a few things about the Real Presence here

bibleversereflections.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/eucharist-john-663-explored.html
 
My wife is a catechist for kindergarten aged students in CCD, and I occasionally help out in her class. One of the explanations I came up with used the Transformers as an analogy. You can look at the Camaro and not see anything but a Camaro. A person could even drive the Camaro. But you know, hidden inside, is Bumblebee.

It’s not a perfect analogy, but it works well enough to convey the point that just a there is something special about this Camaro that is not true of just any Camaro, but the important difference is inside; the same is true of the Eucharist as it relates to bread and wine. Kids totally get it, that something can look like one thing, but it’s REALLY something else inside.
 
The meaning of “Real Presence” to me
is that when I am at mass in church,
I truly worship Christ’s presence at the
altar. “[we] must worship in Spirit and in
Truth” John 4:24
 
A Protestant friend of mine asked me about The Real Presence of the Eucharist.

…

So, I would like to ask if anyone had any answers or methods of explaining Real Presence.
This is how I once tried to explain this to an atheist or agnostic:

Yes, for many Christians the easiest way to understand the Eucharist is seeing in it a symbol of (the body of) Christ, the Messiah. The Catholic Church is against the use of the word “symbol”, because it downplays the “mystery” that the Eucharist is supposed to convey. Again, my understanding of this is that, when I write down “$100” this symbolizes a certain value, whereas if this is written on a banknote issued by the Reserve Bank of Australia, that piece of paper is worth $100, more than just symbolically. Of, course, for Robinson Crusoe the banknote would be just a worthless piece of paper, like the Eucharist is to “outsiders”.
 
Like millions of Catholics, transubstantiation gives me pause. Here are seven of my reasons.
Code:
(1) It can seem like a superstition. No offense, but the picture of people sitting before the Eucharist and adoring it as being where God is somehow concentrated seems it bit far out. Is it well-intentioned, of course, and I certainly don't condemn it. Different ways of worship that can be respected even if not accepted.

(2) I sense that God is everywhere. We read in scripture: "Lo, I am with you always." The idea of limiting his fullness to some particular place troubles me. I sit here at my computer and know that God is with me - as with you. I seek and find him in the woods, in the livingroom, at the seashore. Is he somehow more on the altar because a priest utters a prayer that works a miracle? 

(3) It reminds me of the Ark of the Covenant, where Old Testament Jews somehow thought they were carrying around Jehovah. Anthropomorphic? Like God walking in the Garden in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve? 

(4) Christ spoke in metaphorical language and in parables all the time. I am the gate. I am the vine.  I am the Good Shepherd, etc. How literal are we supposed to get?

(5) Pagans, such as those who followed Mithraism, had this notion that if you consumed god you somehow took on his strength and virtues. This was a common concept among cannibals, also. 

 (6) As suggested already, I have no essential problem with those who believe it, as I have no problem with Jews who reject the Messiah or Hindus who worship Krishna or Muslims who throw stones at the devil when they are on pilgrimage in Mecca, as I believe we need to respect different beliefs. However, I am ready to admit that God is well behind my human understanding. His creation is magnificent, miraculous, mammoth and mysterious. Yet, I find myself reluctant to place him in a piece of bread and a chalice of wine. 

 (7) I find no precedent in scripture of the disciples adoring the Eucharist.

 I'm sure this makes me horrendously heretical, but I know that there is widespread agreement with such doubts among otherwise loyal Catholics. We live in the 21st century and practices that may have made sense before we had a decent telescope or any microscope no longer suffice. If we are speaking metaphorically, fine. But literally, I can't go along.

 Sorry. God bless everybody. I'm sure that God smiles upon earnest efforts to worship him whether or not our practices or beliefs are correct, We are sincerely trying to honor him and live for him, and that's what he asks.
 
Like millions of Catholics, transubstantiation gives me pause. Here are seven of my reasons.
Code:
(1) It can seem like a superstition. No offense, but the picture of people sitting before the Eucharist and adoring it as being where God is somehow concentrated seems it bit far out. Is it well-intentioned, of course, and I certainly don't condemn it. Different ways of worship that can be respected even if not accepted.

(2) I sense that God is everywhere. We read in scripture: "Lo, I am with you always." The idea of limiting his fullness to some particular place troubles me. I sit here at my computer and know that God is with me - as with you. I seek and find him in the woods, in the livingroom, at the seashore. Is he somehow more on the altar because a priest utters a prayer that works a miracle? 

(3) It reminds me of the Ark of the Covenant, where Old Testament Jews somehow thought they were carrying around Jehovah. Anthropomorphic? Like God walking in the Garden in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve? 

(4) Christ spoke in metaphorical language and in parables all the time. I am the gate. I am the vine.  I am the Good Shepherd, etc. How literal are we supposed to get?

(5) Pagans, such as those who followed Mithraism, had this notion that if you consumed god you somehow took on his strength and virtues. This was a common concept among cannibals, also. 

 (6) As suggested already, I have no essential problem with those who believe it, as I have no problem with Jews who reject the Messiah or Hindus who worship Krishna or Muslims who throw stones at the devil when they are on pilgrimage in Mecca, as I believe we need to respect different beliefs. However, I am ready to admit that God is well behind my human understanding. His creation is magnificent, miraculous, mammoth and mysterious. Yet, I find myself reluctant to place him in a piece of bread and a chalice of wine. 

 (7) I find no precedent in scripture of the disciples adoring the Eucharist.

 I'm sure this makes me horrendously heretical, but I know that there is widespread agreement with such doubts among otherwise loyal Catholics. We live in the 21st century and practices that may have made sense before we had a decent telescope or any microscope no longer suffice. If we are speaking metaphorically, fine. But literally, I can't go along.

 Sorry. God bless everybody. I'm sure that God smiles upon earnest efforts to worship him whether or not our practices or beliefs are correct, We are sincerely trying to honor him and live for him, and that's what he asks.
Here is an excerpt from Dr Brant Pitre, in t Jesus and the JEwsih Roots of the Eucharist:

The bread of the presence

The First worship of God revolved around the Tabernacle. In the center, (The Holy of Holies!) read (Exodus 25:23-30)

The 1) Ark of the Covenant, (Father!) 2) The Golden Lampstand (he Holy Spirit!) and 3) The Bread of the Presence (Jesus the son)
  1. The Ark of the Covenant was the throne of God!
  2. The Golden Lampstand was referred to as the Menorah… It had 7 candles on it, which were to be lit ALL THE TIME!
  3. The bread of the presence was to be set on a Golden table and put inside the holy place!
So when you came into the tabernacle, on the right you would have the Golden Table, to the left, you would have the Menorah (Tongues of fire! PENTACOST!) , in front of you would be a veil…. Behind the vale, would be the Ark of the Covenant. There were 3 symbols. Here we have The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, hidden in the old tabernacle of the old testament!

Read Leviticus 24:1-9 1) There were 12CAKES ( Which represented the 12 tribes) Set out on the Sabbath, as a sacrifice to the Lord!
2) This bread ( Cake!) is a perpetual dew, to be continually before the Lord as a covenant forever.
3) The Lampstand had to burn CONTINUALLY, with the bread!
4) The Bread of the Presence was sacred
5) The Translation of THE BREAD OF THE PRESENCE can have 2 meanings: 1) Hebrew translation: Presence and 2) Face. The BREAD OF THE FACE! It is an unbloody sacrifice… also, wine
Exodus 25:29 And you shall make its dishes, and its spoons, and its covers, and its bowls for pouring: of pure gold shall you make them.
This is to show the bread and the wine of the Presence!

A) Read 1 Samuel 21: 1-6
The priests were abstain from relations, when being priest. While they were sacrificing, they would do their priestly duties! Reference this to

B) Read Matthew 12:1-8
C) What could be greater than the Temple? It was the dwelling place of God on earth…. Except when God HIMSELF (Jesus!) is there! Jesus is saying I am like David (Being the King!) Jesus Apostles are like Davids followers. David and his followers could work, on the Sabbath, so to, could Jesus’ followers. Jesus. The Priests themselves work on the Sabbath, and are guiltless. So, Jesus is making the Apostles the Priests of the New Covenant! What does the Priest do on the Sabbath? He offers the BREAD OF THE PRESENCE!

D) Jesus is the new Temple. The Apostles are the Priests. The Apostles were plucking Grain, which makes bread! Remember the fact that the New Covenant is better than the old? How is it the Jews, during that time knew about the Eucharist?
  1. The Eucharist was the new BREAD OF THE PRESENCE. If the old bread of the presence communicated the Presence of God, the new Bread of the Presence will be better
  2. Jesus was laying claim that he will be the new temple: John 2:13-22 You will see that Jesus Body is God made Flesh His body is God is WITH US! With Jesus’ Body, we encounter the NEW TEMPLE! The Eucharist is the new temple of the NEW covenant!
 
Here is an excerpt from Dr Brant Pitre, in t Jesus and the JEwsih Roots of the Eucharist:

The bread of the presence

The First worship of God revolved around the Tabernacle. In the center, (The Holy of Holies!) read (Exodus 25:23-30)

The 1) Ark of the Covenant, (Father!) 2) The Golden Lampstand (he Holy Spirit!) and 3) The Bread of the Presence (Jesus the son)
  1. The Ark of the Covenant was the throne of God!
  2. The Golden Lampstand was referred to as the Menorah… It had 7 candles on it, which were to be lit ALL THE TIME!
  3. The bread of the presence was to be set on a Golden table and put inside the holy place!
So when you came into the tabernacle, on the right you would have the Golden Table, to the left, you would have the Menorah (Tongues of fire! PENTACOST!) , in front of you would be a veil…. Behind the vale, would be the Ark of the Covenant. There were 3 symbols. Here we have The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, hidden in the old tabernacle of the old testament!

Read Leviticus 24:1-9 1) There were 12CAKES ( Which represented the 12 tribes) Set out on the Sabbath, as a sacrifice to the Lord!
2) This bread ( Cake!) is a perpetual dew, to be continually before the Lord as a covenant forever.
3) The Lampstand had to burn CONTINUALLY, with the bread!
4) The Bread of the Presence was sacred
5) The Translation of THE BREAD OF THE PRESENCE can have 2 meanings: 1) Hebrew translation: Presence and 2) Face. The BREAD OF THE FACE! It is an unbloody sacrifice… also, wine
Exodus 25:29 And you shall make its dishes, and its spoons, and its covers, and its bowls for pouring: of pure gold shall you make them.
This is to show the bread and the wine of the Presence!

A) Read 1 Samuel 21: 1-6
The priests were abstain from relations, when being priest. While they were sacrificing, they would do their priestly duties! Reference this to

B) Read Matthew 12:1-8
C) What could be greater than the Temple? It was the dwelling place of God on earth…. Except when God HIMSELF (Jesus!) is there! Jesus is saying I am like David (Being the King!) Jesus Apostles are like Davids followers. David and his followers could work, on the Sabbath, so to, could Jesus’ followers. Jesus. The Priests themselves work on the Sabbath, and are guiltless. So, Jesus is making the Apostles the Priests of the New Covenant! What does the Priest do on the Sabbath? He offers the BREAD OF THE PRESENCE!

D) Jesus is the new Temple. The Apostles are the Priests. The Apostles were plucking Grain, which makes bread! Remember the fact that the New Covenant is better than the old? How is it the Jews, during that time knew about the Eucharist?
  1. The Eucharist was the new BREAD OF THE PRESENCE. If the old bread of the presence communicated the Presence of God, the new Bread of the Presence will be better
  2. Jesus was laying claim that he will be the new temple: John 2:13-22 You will see that Jesus Body is God made Flesh His body is God is WITH US! With Jesus’ Body, we encounter the NEW TEMPLE! The Eucharist is the new temple of the NEW covenant!
Fine. I do have trouble with some of the adoration of David. He saw Bathsheba showering, had someone bring her to him, essentially raped her, then had her husband killed so that he could marry her. Now, how can we make such a sinner into a great hero? I also have serious trouble with the chant: “Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!”
Code:
Would Jesus join in such a shout? I don't think so. 

 You raise many other points, but time and other duties keep me from responding at this time.

 God bless everybody.
 
I get very excited whenever I’m given the opportunity to explain the Real Presence to someone. I came into the Catholic faith at Easter Vigil, 2005 at the age of 60. As a former “Billy Graham kind of guy,” I always regarded communion as nothing more than symbolic. However, at the RCIA retreat one month prior to the Easter Vigil a deacon took great pains to carefully explain what takes place during consecration. The “process” is called Epiclesis when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine into the Real Presence at which time transubstantiation occurs. I must admit that for a nano-second I thought to myself that this was some kind of Catholic hocus-pocus. But, in the very next nano-second I accepted it utterly completely because if I denied what was taking place, I would be denying the power of the Holy Spirit which is something I could not and would not do under any circumstances. Once I appreciated what was happening during consecration, it became for me a life-changing experience because not only was communion no longer simply symbolic, but I lived by the scriptural promise that if I took the Eucharist in a worthy fashion, Christ lives in me and I in Him. It doesn’t get any better than that my friends. As far as anyone being concerned about it being cannibalistic, the Church reminds us that it is an “unbloody sacrifice” and that the Liturgy of the Eucharist is a re-presentation of the Last Supper. I get “God bumps” at almost every Mass now when I realize what an incredible event I’m witnessing. You can take that to the bank.
 
Like millions of Catholics, transubstantiation gives me pause. Here are seven of my reasons.
Even though you are specifically referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation, the seven points you are making actually address the broader concept of the Real Presence in the Eucharist (of which transubstantiation is only one of a number of explanations concerning it). Therefore, I will address your points in light of the belief in the Real Presence.
(1) It can seem like a superstition.
So can the Resurrection.
So can the idea that Scripture is divinely inspired.
So can the belief that God exists in the first place.

Can you give me just one example of a religious belief that could not seem like a superstition in the eyes of another? If not, then why should singling out the Real Presence along these lines give you pause?
No offense, but the picture of people sitting before the Eucharist and adoring it as being where God is somehow concentrated seems it bit far out…
According to the Bible…
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11, RSV)

This is the kind of worship that Catholics are giving Christ in the context of Eucharistic Adoration. We simply choose to do it now instead of waiting until the Second Coming. According to Catholic theology, the only difference between the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and the presence of Jesus when he descends from heaven at the Second Coming is that in the Eucharist he is veiled under the appearance of bread and wine. If this is what Catholics believe then in the presence of the Eucharist we should act like it.
(2) I sense that God is everywhere.
Yes, Jesus is present throughout all of creation, but there is a difference between a presence that is only spiritual and a presence that is both spiritual and physical. When Jesus was born into this world 2000 years ago, his presence was both spiritual and physical. He bodily ascended into heaven where his presence is now both spiritual and physical. In the Eucharist his spiritual and physical presence is perpetuated for each generation here on earth until his Second Coming (which will, of course, also be a spiritual and physical presence).
We read in scripture: “Lo, I am with you always.”
As Christians, we all believe that Jesus is with us, but the question is how far does he go to be with us? According to the doctrine of the Real Presence, the exact same presence of Jesus who spoke the words you quoted (i.e., a spiritual and physical presence) is within the Eucharist. But what you are telling us, in essence, is, “No, he does not go that far.”
The idea of limiting his fullness to some particular place troubles me.
What about in the womb of Mary when she carried him?
What about in the manger of Bethlehem when Jesus was born?
What about right now in heaven where Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father?
In light of these examples, the idea of the fullness of Jesus being found in a particular place for a particular purpose should not be troubling.
I sit here at my computer and know that God is with me - as with you. I seek and find him in the woods, in the livingroom, at the seashore.
Jesus is present everywhere, but not in the same way. As I mentioned before, the Bible declares that every knee will bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Does the presence of God in the woods compel you to kneel in adoration to a tree? Or to the furniture in your living room? Or to the ocean at the seashore? I’m guessing the answer is probably, “no”.
Is he somehow more on the altar because a priest utters a prayer that works a miracle?
Yes, because, by the power of God, the presence of Christ within the Eucharist is his substantial presence, referring to everything that Jesus is: his body, blood, soul and divinity. This is not the same presence found in, say, a tree (or the act cutting down a tree would be a sacrilegious sin).
(3) It reminds me of the Ark of the Covenant, where Old Testament Jews somehow thought they were carrying around Jehovah. Anthropomorphic? Like God walking in the Garden in the cool of the morning, looking for Adam and Eve?
Was it anthropomorphic when the Bible says that Mary carried Jesus in her womb?

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
(4) Christ spoke in metaphorical language and in parables all the time. I am the gate. I am the vine. I am the Good Shepherd, etc. How literal are we supposed to get?
First of all, just because Jesus sometimes spoke metaphorically doesn’t mean he always did. Obviously, the crowd in John 6 did not think Jesus was using the language of a metaphor, nor did Jesus indicate that his words were meant to be understood as anything but literal.

Secondly, consider what St. Paul says about the Eucharist:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. (1Cor 11:24-30, RSV)

Does this honestly sound like St. Paul is describing the power of a metaphor? How many metaphors make someone weak, ill and even dead if one does not properly discern them?

Thirdly, every church which has directly grown out of the original Apostolic Sees has historically taught the Real Presence of Christ within the Eucharist. It is a teaching in the Catholic Church, all of the various Eastern Orthodox Churches, and all of the various Oriental Orthodox Churches. Even some Protestant denominations (including Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists) believe in the Real Presence. Among these groups there is, I admit, doctrinal disagreement over how the Eucharist is the Real Presence, but not over the belief in the Real Presence itself. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that some Christians started rejecting this belief.
(5) Pagans, such as those who followed Mithraism, had this notion that if you consumed god you somehow took on his strength and virtues. This was a common concept among cannibals, also.
Pagans also believe that a god could die and be resurrected (for example, the legend of Osiris predates the birth of Christ). Does this destroy the credibility of Christianity? No, because one can simply point out that pagans, by virtue of their God-given intellect, were able to discern certain truths about reality. For example, pagans were able to imagine the following hypothesis: if a divine being is able to experience death and then rise again from the dead, then such a deity has power over death itself, and death is not the insurmountable end of existence. The human intellect was designed to be predisposed to such an idea in preparation for the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. The pre-Christian pagans (being naturally concerned about the reality of death) used their imaginations to simply create a mythological god, Osiris, to ascribe this concept to. The same sort of thing can be going on concerning pagan ideas about being supernaturally empowered from what is eaten.
(6) As suggested already, I have no essential problem with those who believe it, as I have no problem with Jews who reject the Messiah or Hindus who worship Krishna or Muslims who throw stones at the devil when they are on pilgrimage in Mecca, as I believe we need to respect different beliefs. However, I am ready to admit that God is well behind my human understanding. His creation is magnificent, miraculous, mammoth and mysterious. Yet, I find myself reluctant to place him in a piece of bread and a chalice of wine.
And God is beyond my understanding also. The only reason I place him in what seems to be a piece of bread and a chalice of wine is because he revealed to his Church that he’s there. “This is my Body…This is my Blood.”

Also, consider the event concerning the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35). Notice that they initially received a Bible study class from Christ himself, and yet they did not recognize him. But later we read…

When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight. (Luke 24:30-31, RSV)

Why did Jesus leave at this point? According to the doctrine of the Real Presence, he didn’t. More specifically, he vanished from their sight, but he did not leave because he was still there in the Eucharist. At this point in the gospel, Jesus was soon to bodily and spiritually ascend to heaven, so this event teaches that future generations of Christians would need to turn to the Eucharist to have an bodily and spiritual encounter with Christ.

In light of this, consider the way in which Luke ends his retelling of this event:
Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. (Luke 24:35, RSV, emphasis added)

This knowledge of Christ in the breaking of the bread has been passed down from apostolic times in the doctrine of the Real Presence.

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
(7) I find no precedent in scripture of the disciples adoring the Eucharist.
Is there a precedent in Scripture for transferring the commandment to observe the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?
Is there a precedent in Scripture for saying that there is one God who exists as three, and only three, divine persons?
Is there a precedent in Scripture for determining which ancient writings belong in the Bible in the first place?
There is not precedence in Scripture for a number of things. The question at hand is whether or not the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. If people believe that it is, then they should act like it is, and that means adoration.
I’m sure this makes me horrendously heretical…
Not necessarily. From the Catholic perspective, that depends on how well you fit the Church’s definition of heresy, but there is really no need to get into all that for the purposes of this discussion.
…but I know that there is widespread agreement with such doubts among otherwise loyal Catholics.
First of all, I am not sure that there is such a widespread doubt. Many people who participate in those kinds of polls often mistake “understanding” with “belief”, and are actually conveying a lack of understanding of how the Real Presence of Christ can be in the Eucharist. It is, after all, a mystery.

Secondly, the whole concept of the Real Presence seems too good to be true, so some people will naturally not believe in it. But this is why faith is important. We do not need to exercise faith (regardless of what the object of faith is) unless there is already reasonable room for doubt.

Thirdly, during the time of the Arian heresy there was widespread doubt among otherwise loyal Catholics concerning the nature of Christ’s divinity. That didn’t make the doubters correct. Moreover, it was not until within the last five centuries or so that there were any widespread doubts about the Real Presence within Christianity at all. So considering both the historical and universal belief among Christians spread throughout the world, belief in the Real Presence greatly outweighs belief in the “Real Absence.”
We live in the 21st century and practices that may have made sense before we had a decent telescope or any microscope no longer suffice.
An atheist could say the same thing in attempting to refute Christianity in its totality (and many have done just that). It’s the whole, “We no longer need belief in a God to explain reality” argument. You stated earlier, “I know that God is with me” and yet you are obviously not able to use a telescope or microscope to prove that. Therefore, your beliefs concerning the presence of God are beyond the means of science to verify, just as my beliefs concerning the presence of God (i.e., the Real Presence in the Eucharist) are beyond the means of science to verify. If this is not a problem in terms of your belief then why should it be a problem in terms of mine?

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)
If we are speaking metaphorically, fine. But literally, I can’t go along.
Let’s compare the two concepts…

Definitions

Real Presence: Everything that Christ is (body, blood, soul and divinity) is within the Eucharist. John 6 and the gospel accounts of the Last Supper are to be interpreted literally.

Symbolic Presence: The presence of Christ within the Eucharist is spiritual but not physical, and therefore not distinguishable from his presence elsewhere in creation. John 6 and the gospel accounts of the Last Supper are to be interpreted symbolically (i.e., as a metaphor).

Ramifications

Real Presence
Jesus loves me enough to give me his Real Presence in the Eucharist. It’s like when a friend drops by to spend time with me in person.

Symbolic Presence
Jesus loves me enough to give me a symbol of himself in the Eucharist. It’s like when a friend mails me a photograph of himself rather than being with me in person.

Real Presence: The Eucharist is a gift of love from Jesus in which he gives us everything that he is. He holds nothing back.

Symbolic Presence: The Eucharist is a gift of love from Jesus in which he gives us part of what he is. We get his spiritual presence, but not his physical presence. He is, therefore, holding something back.

Real Presence: At the Last Supper, Jesus said the bread and wine is his body and blood which would be sacrificed on the cross. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ which has been sacrificed for us. Just as Jesus was holding nothing back when he gave us his all on the cross, he is holding nothing back when he gives us his all in the Eucharist.

Symbolic Presence: Regardless of what Jesus said at the Last Supper, the Eucharist is not his body and blood which was sacrificed on the cross. Even though Jesus was spiritually and physically on the cross, he is only spiritually with us in the Eucharist.

Real Presence: Fr. Angelus Shaughnessy, OFM Cap., once commented that when we consume the Eucharist we are as close to Jesus as Mary was when she bore him in her womb. In other words, everything that we are (body and soul) is united with everything that Jesus is (body, blood, soul and divinity) in both a spiritual and physical way. This is an incredible thought and it conveys what a great gift of love the Eucharist is.

Symbolic Presence: When we consume the Eucharist we are no more joined to Jesus than when we consume a hamburger or a root beer. Jesus said to eat his body and drink his blood, and to continue his actions in the Last Supper in remembrance of him. But those who do so are no better off, and receive no more grace, than those who engage in other forms of Christian devotional practices.

In light of all this, I think it is more problematic to suggest that the words of Jesus concerning the Eucharist are to be understood as a metaphor rather than taken literally.
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 Sorry. God bless everybody. I'm sure that God smiles upon earnest efforts to worship him whether or not our practices or beliefs are correct, We are sincerely trying to honor him and live for him, and that's what he asks.
I agree, but I think it is also important to avail ourselves to what he has provided for the sake of our spiritual nourishment and guidance. God gave humanity the sacraments because we need them. Moreover, in John 6 Jesus says that if we do not eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life within us. And at the Last Supper he said, “Do this in remembrance of me”. He did not simply ask this of us, he told us to do it. So if we choose not to do this, are we truly trying to honor him and live for him?
 
P.S.,

Just to clarify something concerning my last post, Catholics believe that the Eucharist has a symbolic quality, but the Church teaches that the Eucharist is not only a symbol. Therefore, it is not wrong, in and of itself, to refer to the Eucharist as a “symbolic presence”, but it all depends on how this term is defined. Hence, my use of the term “symbolic presence” in my last post should be understood along the lines of how I initially defined it (i.e., the idea that the gospel’s portrayal of the Eucharist is the language of a metaphor and therefore not to be interpreted literally. It includes the notion that the Eucharist has a spiritual presence of Christ, but not a presence that is both spiritual and physical).
 
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