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praestat_fides
Guest
I agree…
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TimothyH
Guest
Most of this thread has zero to do with the OP’s original question. I would like to answer that.
The OT says that the life of a creature is in its blood.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood; (Leviticus 17:11)
Do we drink the blood of animals and live the life of an animal? Or do we drink the Blood of Christ and live the life of Christ? God was reserving the consumption of blood until we could drink Christ’s blood because the “life is in the blood” and he wants us to live the life of Christ.
The council of Jerusalem forbade the Christians in Syrian Antioch from drinking animal blood. The letter from the Apostles was not about the Precious Blood but about animal blood.
Judaizers were telling the Christians in Syrian Antioch that they had to follow the law of Moses in order to be saved, including circumcision. The letter to the Christians in Antioch was brilliant because it specified that the Gentile Christians had to observe the same law that Gentiles had to follow in order to live among the Jews as laid out in the Book of Leviticus.
No strangled animals
No meat sacrificed to idols
No blood (of animals)
No unlawful marriage
This delighted the Judaizers because it was straight from the Law of Moses. It delighted the Gentile Christians because they did not have to be circumcised. But the Council of Jerusalem did not forbid the consumption of the Precious Blood of Christ because the Life is in the Blood.
***So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *(John 6:53)
We want to live the life of Christ so we drink the blood of Christ.
-Tim-
The OT says that the life of a creature is in its blood.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood; (Leviticus 17:11)
Do we drink the blood of animals and live the life of an animal? Or do we drink the Blood of Christ and live the life of Christ? God was reserving the consumption of blood until we could drink Christ’s blood because the “life is in the blood” and he wants us to live the life of Christ.
The council of Jerusalem forbade the Christians in Syrian Antioch from drinking animal blood. The letter from the Apostles was not about the Precious Blood but about animal blood.
Judaizers were telling the Christians in Syrian Antioch that they had to follow the law of Moses in order to be saved, including circumcision. The letter to the Christians in Antioch was brilliant because it specified that the Gentile Christians had to observe the same law that Gentiles had to follow in order to live among the Jews as laid out in the Book of Leviticus.
No strangled animals
No meat sacrificed to idols
No blood (of animals)
No unlawful marriage
This delighted the Judaizers because it was straight from the Law of Moses. It delighted the Gentile Christians because they did not have to be circumcised. But the Council of Jerusalem did not forbid the consumption of the Precious Blood of Christ because the Life is in the Blood.
***So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *(John 6:53)
We want to live the life of Christ so we drink the blood of Christ.
-Tim-
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CatholicHockey7
Guest
Would you say the commands of Christ are unimportant? That because he died on the cross we don’t have to obey what he said?
That’s ultimately what I’m asking. Your original comment, remember, was that everything other than the cross was superfluous. If that’s true, then how do you know someone who TRULY professes faith in Christ would never do any of those things? And even if they did, what would it matter?
So obviously we agree that some things are more than superfluous. If that’s true, then what are those things? Which commandments are important and which ones can we ignore?
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praestat_fides
Guest
CatholicHockey…you have misunderstood me. When I said that “everything else is superfluous” I surely wasn’t referring to the commandments of God! It goes without saying that anyone who professes to be a Christian must obey the commandments of God. Anyone who says different will have to serve at least a double minor in the penalty box, if not a game misconduct! (sorry had to throw in some friendly hockey humor!)
When I say “everything else” I am referring to the extra and unnecessary bells and whistles the Catholic Church promotes. Marian devotion, indulgences, the requirement to confess mortal sins, the one hour fast before communion, etc, are all distractions that take the spotlight off of the finished work of Calvary and place that spotlight on the individual person and their own merits.
Although the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that one **may not ** earn salvation through good works, I sometimes fear that the priests and CCD teachers do a poor job of explaining that to the faithful. When they focus so much on these extra bells and whistles, it causes the lay faithful to forget about the need for God’s grace for salvation and focus more on their own deeds and merits.
I see it all the time on this forum…let me give you an example. The other day I was looking through the “Ask an apologist” section. I came across a post from a woman who was in a frantic panic because she consumed a breath mint less than one hour before taking communion. What in God’s name does a breath mint have to do with salvation? I feel bad for her. Instead of focusing on the grace of God and being happy that she has a savior in Jesus, she is obsessing over a man made rule about eating prior to taking comunion. So sad…
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CatholicHockey7
Guest
It’s why I ask the questions. To make sure I understand you. Thank you for clarifying. I still must ask, though, what about the commandments of God?CatholicHockey…you have misunderstood me. When I said that “everything else is superfluous” I surely wasn’t referring to the commandments of God! It goes without saying that anyone who professes to be a Christian must obey the commandments of God. Anyone who says different will have to serve at least a double minor in the penalty box, if not a game misconduct! (sorry had to throw in some friendly hockey humor!)
When I say “everything else” I am referring to the extra and unnecessary bells and whistles the Catholic Church promotes. Marian devotion, indulgences, the requirement to confess mortal sins, the one hour fast before communion, etc, are all distractions that take the spotlight off of the finished work of Calvary and place that spotlight on the individual person and their own merits.
Although the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that one **may not ** earn salvation through good works, I sometimes fear that the priests and CCD teachers do a poor job of explaining that to the faithful. When they focus so much on these extra bells and whistles, it causes the lay faithful to forget about the need for God’s grace for salvation and focus more on their own deeds and merits.
I see it all the time on this forum…let me give you an example. The other day I was looking through the “Ask an apologist” section. I came across a post from a woman who was in a frantic panic because she consumed a breath mint less than one hour before taking communion. What in God’s name does a breath mint have to do with salvation? I feel bad for her. Instead of focusing on the grace of God and being happy that she has a savior in Jesus, she is obsessing over a man made rule about eating prior to taking comunion. So sad…
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)
“This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19)
Jesus commanded us to do this, so shouldn’t we do it?
And yes, there is a “rule” that we should fast for one hour before communion. What you seem to be doing is focusing on the rule and not on the reason for the rule. The reason we fast is out of respect for that very sacrifice. We also do it as a way to remind ourselves physically of our need to be fed spiritually, something which can only be done by Christ. So the rule exists not to put any emphasis on our merits, but to specifically remind us of the merits of Christ and our need for Him.
Unfortunately, people are people. That means they will either try to find a loophole or they will try so hard to follow the letter of the law they forget about it’s spirit. In the case of the breath mint, I would recommend that individual get help dealing with scrupulosity.
I know you brought up some other things, and I’m happy to discuss them, but I’ve intentionally kept this post about the Eucharist since that’s what the thread is about.
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Vico
Guest
Wow! These are important for the remission of sins and temporal punishments. Confession of mortal sins through the agency of the Church is very important especially since we are not certain that we have perfect contrition (and the Church grants absolution with merely imperfect contrition). Asking the Blessed Virgin Mary to pray for us is very helpful in remission of temporal punishments. Breaking our attachments to sins will help that we not fall into mortal sin. We fall gradually through venial sins, bad habits, then into mortal sin. Catechism:… Marian devotion, indulgences, the requirement to confess mortal sins, the one hour fast before communion, etc, are all distractions that take the spotlight off of the finished work of Calvary and place that spotlight on the individual person and their own merits.
…
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135 1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. "The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85
1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88
1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
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claymcdermott
Guest
OP, I think Timothy H has answered your question in a way that should totally satisfy your original objection, even if you accept a very physicalitist interpretation of the Eucharist.
Your confusion as originally stated:
How can (1) OT prohibitions on eating human flesh; (2) a NT prohibition on drinking blood; and (3) Real Presence, all be true.
Answer:
(2) refers to animal blood, not human.
(1) Nowhere in the Old Testament can I find a prohibition on eating human flesh. I can find places where starving people are forced to kill and eat each other to stay alive, and this is very sad. But, not really able to find any place where eating human flesh is categorically and universally prohibited.
(1) not there. (2) inapplicable. So, (3) not contradictory. You have a solution.
Your confusion as originally stated:
How can (1) OT prohibitions on eating human flesh; (2) a NT prohibition on drinking blood; and (3) Real Presence, all be true.
Answer:
(2) refers to animal blood, not human.
(1) Nowhere in the Old Testament can I find a prohibition on eating human flesh. I can find places where starving people are forced to kill and eat each other to stay alive, and this is very sad. But, not really able to find any place where eating human flesh is categorically and universally prohibited.
(1) not there. (2) inapplicable. So, (3) not contradictory. You have a solution.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Reference, please?
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corsair
Guest
Read John 6:51 on to 71.
This should answer your question.
This should answer your question.
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Richca
Guest
Because we are followers of Christ and Jesus said "“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6: 53-56).
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praestat_fides
Guest
The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).
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BartholomewB
Guest
Exactly so. Faith and works work together or cooperate, in the words of James 2:22.
“If anyone shall say that the wicked man is justified by faith alone, meaning that no other thing is required to cooperate …” (Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 9)
Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
I’m still curious to learn where, exactly, you found that bit in the CCC about not earning salvation through good works.
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praestat_fides
Guest
You can’t possibly earn your salvation via good works. Salvation is a free gift via the grace of God. Think about it…the RCC teaches that the only way a person goes to hell is if they die in a state of mortal sin and thus have lost God’s grace and friendship. If I die in a state of venial sin, then I go either to purgatory or heaven regardless of how many good works I did or did not do! The doctrine of “works righteousness” would be called Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. **We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works **to conclude that we are justified and saved.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, **no one can merit ** the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.
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Vico
Guest
The initial grace is not merited by us.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.
Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus states that we must do works: “. . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
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BartholomewB
Guest
Thank you, Praestat. I notice, however, that you omitted the second part of No. 2005:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 **However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty. **A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58
No. 2008 also has some bearing on the question:
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, **and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. **Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
In quoting No. 2010 you once again cut it short at the end of the first sentence:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. **Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. **Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
I don’t think anyone would accuse the authors of the CCC of being Pelagians. But they’re not Calvinists, either!
Regards
Bart
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praestat_fides
Guest
So if a person does not die in a state of mortal sin he/she will go to hell if he/she hasn’t performed enough good works?
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Vico
Guest
Omission of good works or commission of bad works, or sinful thoughts, result in mortal sin. Without repentance it leads to condemnation.So if a person does not die in a state of mortal sin he/she will go to hell if he/she hasn’t performed enough good works?
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praestat_fides
Guest
OK fair enough but the ability to do such good works only comes from the grace of God right? We can’t do them on our own without his help so in the end it all comes down to grace and faith. no?
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Vico
Guest
There is the matter of our cooperation with grace, which is free will. That choice comes from the person.
II Council of Orange, Denzinger 388The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be performed meritoriously.
Lumen Gentium 48 Since however we know not the day nor the hour, on Our Lord’s advice we must be constantly vigilant so that, having finished the course of our earthly life, 255 we may merit to enter into the marriage feast with Him and to be numbered among the blessed 256 and that we may not be ordered to go into eternal fire 257 like the wicked and slothful servant, 258 into the exterior darkness where “there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth”. 259
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Richca
Guest
No, because an infant after being baptized could die soon after but that infant would go straight to heaven without performing any good works. Eternal life, sanctifying grace and actual grace are entirely free gifts of God which belong to the supernatural order. Once we reach the age of reason, through childhood, and adulthood we need to cooperate with God’s grace though since we have free will and so St James says faith without works is dead.So if a person does not die in a state of mortal sin he/she will go to hell if he/she hasn’t performed enough good works?
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