Real Presence

[ricmat]

NOT AT ALL! I was just saying that Catholics are just like most other people. Thats why the Eucharist isnt really doing anything special.

Hey, if you think we’re bad after taking the Eucharist, you should see us when we don’t.

The Eucharist provides grace. But those receiving grace must agree to cooperate with it. For many, receiving the Eucharist is a cultural thing, and they don’t have a good understanding of grace, or of cooperating with it.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Hey, if you think we’re bad after taking the Eucharist, you should see us when we don’t.

again, i am not thinking or saying that at all. please see above post. thank you.

The Eucharist provides grace. But those receiving grace must agree to cooperate with it. For many, receiving the Eucharist is a cultural thing, and they don’t have a good understanding of grace, or of cooperating with it.

are you trying to say that you have to understand how it works for it to work?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I was just saying that Catholics are just like most other people. Thats why the Eucharist isnt really doing anything special.

Either way, I already addressed that too.

 

[ricmat]

again, i am not thinking or saying that at all. please see above post. thank you.

are you trying to say that you have to understand how it works for it to work?

Not so much how it works, but that you WANT it to work.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Not so much how it works, but that you WANT it to work.

so its really you that does the work, not a divine influence. thats why catholics are not any better than the rest of us.

 

[ricmat]

so its really you that does the work, not a divine influence. thats why catholics are not any better than the rest of us.

If you choose not to cooperate with the divine influence, then the grace has no effect.

As I said, many Catholics choose not to cooperate, and God will not abrogate our free will. What we have as Catholics is more opportunities for grace, which if cooperated with, can help one overcome temptations that we would otherwise fall victim to.

Are “Catholics better than the rest of us…”? It depends on the individual Catholic, and the individual “other.”

 

[bengal_fan]

I have Protestant friends like Bengalfan who say they believe in the Real Presence. They mean Jesus is really there…spiritually.

I guess that’s better than believing he’s not there at all.

Hmmm. Except that he’s really not there for them because they don’t have holy orders, right?

Jesus said that where two or three gather in His name, He is there also. i’m pretty sure that most protestants are gathering in His name, so He is present.

 

[Peregrino]

If you choose not to cooperate with the divine influence, then the grace has no effect.

So I can be a protestant, sneak into the communion line on my way to my evangelical church, decide to “cooperate” with the “divine influence” and “get the grace”?

Jesus said that where two or three gather in His name, He is there also. i’m pretty sure that most protestants are gathering in His name, so He is present.

According to us Catholics he is “not really” present where two, three or many are gathered in his name. It is some sort of pseudo “presence”. We have had this discussion here before. You must understand that us catholics have patented the Eucharist; any Eucharist that is not catholic is a knock off that is “not real”, therefore Jesus in any other Eucharist or Jesus in any other form is “not really real”, but he still has some reality…

Catholicism gets to define ontological reality, therefore the “presence” of Jesus in the community is not really “real”, or at least not as real as the real Jesus in the “real” Eucharist. The priests keep Jesus locked up in a little box called the tabernacle. It is only there that you will find the “really” “real” Jesus according to catholicism. To get the “real” Jesus you must join the church and agree to agree to what we believe. Believing involves your assent to these differing degrees of “real”. Some rather well known Saints and theologians have written about these things. You can probably find some info on the main Catholic answers page. Good luck!

 

[ricmat]

Jesus said that where two or three gather in His name, He is there also. i’m pretty sure that most protestants are gathering in His name, so He is present.

Yes, but not physically.

“Physically” is VERY important. Note in the Gospels the emphasis on “touching” Jesus when healing was needed. Most of his miracles involved touch.

Catholics have the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ present in the Eucharist. And we touch Christ in the most intimate way possible.

 

[ricmat]

Peregrino, in your post above, you had my name associated with a post I didn’t make.

Please remove it.

 

[Peregrino]

Peregrino, in your post above, you had my name associated with a post I didn’t make.

Please remove it.

I am sorry, you are right. I can’t edit at this time.

The post above that I incorrectly attributed to ricmat:

“Jesus said that where two or three gather in His name, He is there also. i’m pretty sure that most protestants are gathering in His name, so He is present”

should have been attributed to bengal_fan, not ricmat. He did not make this comment.

 

[Delraek]

Cathechism 1393-1395

youve been eating jesus without knowing that? now talk about “extreme lack of knowledge”

Its only logical, for there are no objective positive effects besides making you feel good from 5 minutes to 1 hour.

I don’t know anyone who receives the Eucharist because they’ll have 5 minutes to 1 hour of “good feelings”, so where the heck are getting this from?

If you believed that the Gospels are true, then you could read John 6 and understand what the Eucharist is:
53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Because we believe Jesus, we don’t need proof. We have faith that He means what He said! How do you explain something like this to someone who doesn’t have faith?

 

[Nella]

I am not sure who we represents in your answer. I am new and do not see your affiliation. Everyone is referring to catholic this and that. I wanted to know how non-catholic christians use the term. Maybe they don’t. I just found an article interesting. I will share the link.

The non-catholic christians think this term is the same as we use it. So became the Catholic use of transubstantiation.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea3.asp

I am Anglican and we believe in the real presence as you do. The Catholic church professes that we don’t posess the true Eucharist and that’s fine. I disagree with their statement and their grounds for it. But, in response to your question we do share your same belief which is far beyond the symbolistic view of most other Protestants.

 

[Nella]

We could really avoid confusion and disagreement if we just look at what Scripture says about this. It is very clear that Jesus said that the bread which comes down from Heaven IS his flesh and whosoever eats it shall live forever. To add things such as we have it and you don’t make unnecessary venom and take focus away from what Jesus really said and meant.

 

[Nella]

Jesus said that where two or three gather in His name, He is there also. i’m pretty sure that most protestants are gathering in His name, so He is present.

Amen to that. Let’s stick to Scripture like what bengal_fan has stated here.

 

[richmaffeobooks]

This question of the Real Presence, for me, revolves around the concept of the timelessness of eternity. I look at it this way, from our perspective, Jesus died some 2,000 years ago. But from God’s perspective (because He is outside time and space) Jesus is STILL on the cross, (and He has not yet gone to the cross), because time is not linear in eternity. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever because He is outside of linear time.

So, at the Mass, the priest is re-presenting the crucifixion insofar as we (who are IN time) can present something outside of time. (I know that gets a little confusing . . . if you are a Star Trek fan, liken it to the space/time contiuum paradox).

Roman Catholicism is at its core a very supernatural faith. My background is Pentecostal, and I enjoy the gifts of the Holy Spirit (specifically praying in “tongues”). Pentecostals believe Christianity is a supernatural faith wherein the Holy Spirit is currently operative in the same way He was in the first century.

Likewise, as a Roman Catholic, I see no problem accepting the supernatural “mystery” of the cellulose and wine supernaturally becoming flesh and blood, even if I can’t see or taste any difference in the texture. After all, faith is the substancd of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen (Heb 12).

Let me approach it in a different way. On December 23, 1972, if you had taken a DNA sample from my blood, and then on December 25 1972 taken another DNA sample . . . the two would have been identical. But, “I” would have been a new creature, a new creation, because on December 24 I committed my life to Jesus Christ and, in the words of Scripture, I died, and was reborn as a new creation.

So, even though it was (and is) no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2) (and I am therefore supernaturally a new creation), my DNA – to a skeptic – would prove me in error. Yet I say, the mystery of salvation and redemption and new life trumps what my eyes see and my taste buds taste.

I am not a theologian. I only know what I know because Scripture teaches it (e.g. John 6 and 1 Corinthians 10) . . . and the Church (which Jesus established in Matt 16 specifically to be the “pillar and support of truth” (1 Tim 3) teaches the same thing.

Which is why, I suppose, I am Catholic and not a Baptist, or Methodist, or whatever . .

rich

 

[snowfly]

No offense

No offence ? I don’t think so, you can mock God for so long then …

but for me this means that catholicism is deep into delusions.

Eucharist is just make believe for it really does nothing but make a person feel good from 5 minutes to 1 hour. THATS IT!

How do you know, do you drive a car ? and if you do, does putting fuel into it mean that the next day you won’t have to put fuel into it at a later stage ?

No physical benefits, no permanent mental/psychological benefits, and the spiritual benefits…does it guarantee anything?

Well your the one that concentrates on the physical, if you can’t see something you don’t believe in it, but you breathe in everyday and don’t see what gives life to your body via your lungs.

Does it make catholics holier than the rest of us? You eat the supreme being and what do you really get?

Jesus said what we get, and if we don’t eat it we will have no life in us, and I’m not talking about the here and now, I’m as you well know, talking about the afterlife, atheists won’t escape hell by saying they didn’t know it existed.

 

[MarcoPolo]

So I can be a protestant, sneak into the communion line on my way to my evangelical church, decide to “cooperate” with the “divine influence” and “get the grace”?

No, you must be in proper standing and belief with the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist (cf. 1 Cor 11:26-30) or a sin takes place!

Also see the Catholic Church’s teaching, in Catechism paragraph 1401 for the exception of when a Christian not in union with the Catholic Church may receive Holy Eucharist:
When, in the Ordinary’s judgment, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and possess the required dispositions(see also Catechism paragraph 1415)

 

[snowfly]

So I can be a protestant, sneak into the communion line on my way to my evangelical church, decide to “cooperate” with the “divine influence” and “get the grace”?

If your talking about receiving in the RC Church without proper discernment, not being in Communion with the RCC (a Catholic) and having unconfessed mortal sin, then think again.

Apart from the criteria in post #58.

You will be in great error, and maybe drinking to your own damnation.

 

[JimG]

Even St. Paul warns that receiving the Eucharist unworthily results not in benefit but in condemnation:

“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement upon himself.” (1 Cor 27-29)

If you wish to discern the benefits of the Eucharist, read the lives of the saints.