Real tradition does not guarantee security

[Cojuanco]

It’s not even about disagreeing. it’s about doing so respectfully, and taking into account the fact that the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, and I am not.

 

[JReducation]

yes, St. Catherine of Siena as well as St. Bridget of Sweden are credited with encouraging the Pope to return to Rome. St. Francis of Assisi likewise was a reformer in a time of low moral in the Church.

It’s not even about disagreeing. it’s about doing so respectfully, and taking into account the fact that the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, and I am not.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Many people don’t understand the concept of reform. Sts Francis and Dominic reformed the church of the Middle Ages, but no one ever heard them criticize the papacy or the Church. They probably had thoughts on many issues; but never mentioned them to anyone. We know they had close relationships with the popes.

No one knew about Catherine’s communication with the pope. This was revealed after her death.

None of these heroes took their gripping to the street. They cherished discretion, something I believe people today have lost. Just stop and think about it. People go on TV to talk about their sexuality. The absence of discretion is affecting our relationship with the Church.

Security comes from focusing on what God puts in our paths and trusting that he fulfills his covenants.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Many people don’t understand the concept of reform. Sts Francis and Dominic reformed the church of the Middle Ages, but no one ever heard them criticize the papacy or the Church. They probably had thoughts on many issues; but never mentioned them to anyone. We know they had close relationships with the popes.

No one knew about Catherine’s communication with the pope. This was revealed after her death.

None of these heroes took their gripping to the street. ** They cherished discretion, something I believe people today have lost**. Just stop and think about it. People go on TV to talk about their sexuality. The absence of discretion is affecting our relationship with the Church.

Security comes from focusing on what God puts in our paths and trusting that he fulfills his covenants.

You know, I couldn’t put my finger on it, but that is it exactly. Call it the Lady Gaga-ization of society.

 

[Cojuanco]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Many people don’t understand the concept of reform. Sts Francis and Dominic reformed the church of the Middle Ages, but no one ever heard them criticize the papacy or the Church. They probably had thoughts on many issues; but never mentioned them to anyone. We know they had close relationships with the popes.

No one knew about Catherine’s communication with the pope. This was revealed after her death.

None of these heroes took their gripping to the street. They cherished discretion, something I believe people today have lost. Just stop and think about it. People go on TV to talk about their sexuality. The absence of discretion is affecting our relationship with the Church.

Security comes from focusing on what God puts in our paths and trusting that he fulfills his covenants.

Right. I remember someone telling me a story about Cardinal Burke. There was a religious or something in Saint Louis who for reasons only him, God, his confessor and the good Cardinal probably know, came to believe he was really a woman in a man’s body. The Cardinal tried to be pastoral, tried to talk it out with him, and so forth, and was inclined to let him remain in his ministry if he did not make his feelings public. But someone found out, and spread the rumors, and then people were calling Cardinal Burke in public - remember, Cardinal Burke here is who we’re talking about - about being soft, and saying he was doing something wrong because he didn’t upbraid him in public. It ended up I think with the religious leaving his vocation, maybe even the Church. Was the Cardinal’s decision the correct one? I don’t know, a case could be made on either side. But the utter contempt for his authority was uncalled for. If they criticized charitably and in due deference, perhaps things might have ended up differently for all concerned. This sort of behavior has consequences for real people.

I would like to say that I’m innocent of this sort of behavior, but I’m not. Which now reminds me, I have now a sin that I honestly forgot last Confession. Thank you all, and thank you, Brother. I’ll be sure to mention it the next time I’m in the Confessional.

 

[JRKH]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Many people don’t understand the concept of reform. Sts Francis and Dominic reformed the church of the Middle Ages, but no one ever heard them criticize the papacy or the Church. They probably had thoughts on many issues; but never mentioned them to anyone. We know they had close relationships with the popes.

No one knew about Catherine’s communication with the pope. This was revealed after her death.

None of these heroes took their gripping to the street. They cherished discretion, something I believe people today have lost. Just stop and think about it. People go on TV to talk about their sexuality. The absence of discretion is affecting our relationship with the Church.

Security comes from focusing on what God puts in our paths and trusting that he fulfills his covenants.

Reading this reminded me of St Paul speaking about being careful about one’s actions so as to not cause the fall of someone with a weaker (or immature) faith. I think he was talking about dining in the specific passage but it certainly can be applied more broadly.
Sorry I don’t know the specific passage…

Peace
James

 

[zab]

…Brother said, “It’s obvious to any scholar that they are confused about tradition. So let’s lay tradition aside for a moment. What do they really want? From your description of their concerns about this papacy, it sounds as if these people lack interior peace. A person with interior peace is not afraid and does not care about these things. Only that present matters to him. Maybe what they want is not tradition, but the absence of fear. And they believe that tradition will restore that confidence.”

I thought about it and remembered the number of men whom we have turned down, because they wanted to enter our community because we’re traditional. We’ve told them that’s a horrible reason for entering the consecrated life. One should enter the consecrated life open to insecurity, not looking for it. The consecrated life, if it’s well lived only offers one security, salvation.

Would it be fair to say that many, not all, traditionalists who put the pope and hierarchy under microscopes are living outside of tradition?

Would it be fair to say that they have let their fears take over their faith?

Would it be reasonable to say that a true man of faith looks for silence, not for security?

A true man of faith strives to grow in holiness. I think that traditionalists have good intentions and they desire to grow in holiness. But growing in holiness involves more than just going through the motions. It is a life long process. I think we need to realize that many traditionalists who are lacking in this interior peace that Brother spoke to you about, are still at the beginning stage.

Letting fear take over is a hindrance to one’s spiritual growth. Silence is sometimes a stage where one finds themselves at where no words, no prayers, no beautiful images satisfy that longing to be with their God. I don’t know if one actually goes looking for silence, but silence is sometimes a place where one finds oneself at, nothing more than the mind being attuned to the presence of God. That is the only comfort that they seem to have. And God speaks to them in the silence.

 

[JReducation]

A true man of faith strives to grow in holiness. I think that traditionalists have good intentions and they desire to grow in holiness. But growing in holiness involves more than just going through the motions. It is a life long process. I think we need to realize that many traditionalists who are lacking in this interior peace that Brother spoke to you about, are still at the beginning stage.

Letting fear take over is a hindrance to one’s spiritual growth. Silence is sometimes a stage where one finds themselves at where no words, no prayers, no beautiful images satisfy that longing to be with their God. I don’t know if one actually goes looking for silence, but silence is sometimes a place where one finds oneself at, nothing more than the mind being attuned to the presence of God. That is the only comfort that they seem to have. And God speaks to them in the silence.

One of my favorite spiritual masters is Francis de Sales. He makes a point that is very important. In every walk of life, be one a religious, cleric or a layman, one must create the means to silence by putting aside what is not really important to one’s personal salvation. He goes on to say that only that which is proper to one’s state in life is really necessary. Everything else can easily become a distraction.

For example, when I say that whatever the pope does or says has nothing to do with me, this is where I’m coming from. If the pope is saying something that directly pertains to religious, then I take note, such as when he told us to get rid of the gadgets and fancy cars.

When the pope said, “Who am I to judge,” that had nothing to do with me. I was not passing judgment on anyone, nor can I demand that the pope pass judgment on anyone. It’s not part of my state in life to make such a call. What pertains to my state in life is not to judge the soul and heart of another. Therefore, it did not apply to me.

I have a very good friend who is also very traditional. He called me up to tell me how he was “on the floor and couldn’t get up”. I thought that he was in another kind of crisis. He then explained that his crisis was because the pope said, “Who am I to judge” and “We talk too much about abortion, contraception and homosexuality.” My immediate reaction was to ask him if he was all caught up on his duties to his family, his job and the Church. The answer was that he was not. So I advised him as St. Francis de Sales said. “Let the pope worry about those things and you focus on the things for which you’ll have to answer to God. Being on the floor, because of what the pope says and not attending to your duties as a husband, father, worker and Catholic is a serious abdication of responsibility and waste of God’s given time.”

He tried to argue with me, "But what about all those souls . . . " I went back to St. Jose Maria Escriva. “You will save more souls by sanctifying the ordinary than by worrying. Asceticism can save souls. Worry cannot.”

We must learn to live with the fact that God is a god of surprises. If we do what is proper to our state in life and do it well, we will be very surprised with what God can do with our simple acts of love.

By focusing on what God puts before us, we create the necessary environment for interior silence where the soul and God can commune without words.

 

[robwar]

You know, I couldn’t put my finger on it, but that is it exactly. Call it the Lady Gaga-ization of society.

I think it more of the facebook-ization of society where every thought, feeling, idea is posted on the internet for the world to see and the idea of holding back and decretion are out the door.

 

[JReducation]

I think it more of the facebook-ization of society where every thought, feeling, idea is posted on the internet for the world to see and the idea of holding back and decretion are out the door.

I really like this. You get my vote of confidence.

This is why I have problems with Nuns on the Bus, SSPX, Call to Action, Independent Catholics, and other such groups.

I remember my parents. I always wondered how two people who were so different could be married for so long. To this day, I’m amazed that they did not kill each other. Don’t get me wrong. They were wonderful parents. I know that they did not see eye to eye on many things. They came from two different worlds. My father was an American and a Catholic, granted, an unfaithful Catholic. My mother was Israeli and a faithful Jew. Just being from two hemispheres was enough difference. Bring in religions and the circumstances in which they grew up.

We never heard either of them ever say anything that was critical of the other. I often saw my father roll his eyes, pull out a newspaper and hide behind it. I often heard my mother say something like, “You’ll have to take that up with your father. You know how I feel about it.” But that was as far as it ever went. I also remember my father telling me that he was going to put my soul in a bottle and my head in the next county if I made one more disrespectful comment about “my (his) wife”.

We don’t treat the Church with the same love and honor.

 

[robwar]

I really like this. You get my vote of confidence.

This is why I have problems with Nuns on the Bus, SSPX, Call to Action, Independent Catholics, and other such groups.

I remember my parents. I always wondered how two people who were so different could be married for so long. To this day, I’m amazed that they did not kill each other. Don’t get me wrong. They were wonderful parents. I know that they did not see eye to eye on many things. They came from two different worlds. My father was an American and a Catholic, granted, an unfaithful Catholic. My mother was Israeli and a faithful Jew. Just being from two hemispheres was enough difference. Bring in religions and the circumstances in which they grew up.

We never heard either of them ever say anything that was critical of the other. I often saw my father roll his eyes, pull out a newspaper and hide behind it. I often heard my mother say something like, “You’ll have to take that up with your father. You know how I feel about it.” But that was as far as it ever went. I also remember my father telling me that he was going to put my soul in a bottle and my head in the next county if I made one more disrespectful comment about “my (his) wife”.

We don’t treat the Church with the same love and honor.

Oh wow, you had quite the parents and family life for sure. I think that has given you the broad persective that you have. I love this Pope. I also loved the last two as well. Pope Francis is challenging and he is challenging us to go back to the basics of being the field hospital for the hurting, the poor and the wounded. He is challenging me to think broader than before. I think when others have expressed their concerns about some of the things he has said, they need to take a step back and realize that we are getting what he says as a translation since he doesn’t speak English. Someone pointed this out that Italian can be tricky to translate and if not careful, can come out not the way the speaker meant it. I guess that is a thought when one hears others express concern about what the main stream media reports about our Holy Father.

 

[JReducation]

Oh wow, you had quite the parents and family life for sure. I think that has given you the broad persective that you have. I love this Pope. I also loved the last two as well. Pope Francis is challenging and he is challenging us to go back to the basics of being the field hospital for the hurting, the poor and the wounded. He is challenging me to think broader than before. I think when others have expressed their concerns about some of the things he has said, they need to take a step back and realize that we are getting what he says as a translation since he doesn’t speak English. Someone pointed this out that Italian can be tricky to translate and if not careful, can come out not the way the speaker meant it. I guess that is a thought when one hears others express concern about what the main stream media reports about our Holy Father.

My family was awesome. It was from them that I learned how one is to love the Church. I remember growing up that one of the things that we were expected to do was to value Judaism and to be reverent when speaking to Rabbis or about Rabbis.

We didn’t look for guarantees within the family or in the congregation. We looked for charity. I don’t mean handouts. I mean love. Love often meant that one accepted differences, even differences that were hard to swallow. It was the kind of love of which Pope Francis often speaks, a love of encounter. You build a relationship and proceed from there toward the highest good.

 

[JRKH]

My family was awesome. It was from them that I learned how one is to love the Church. I remember growing up that one of the things that we were expected to do was to value Judaism and to be reverent when speaking to Rabbis or about Rabbis.

We didn’t look for guarantees within the family or in the congregation. We looked for charity. I don’t mean handouts. I mean love. Love often meant that one accepted differences, even differences that were hard to swallow. It was the kind of love of which Pope Francis often speaks, a love of encounter. You build a relationship and proceed from there toward the highest good.

RE: the bolded…

I think this is a wonderful distillation of why Jesus proceeded as He did - including “dining with sinners”.

Peace
James

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

My favorite part of this life happened when someone came up to me and asked, “So what do you make of the pope’s resignation?”

My reaction was, “What did he resign himself to this time?”

The other person said, “No. He abdicated.”

**To which I responded, “He did? When?”

Then I was informed, “Three days ago. He’s leaving office Feb 28.”**

“Oh! That’s something that we haven’t seen for a few hundred years. I wish him luck. Right now, I have more important things to do, unless the pope is going to come here and stock this pantry with baby food. I’ll find out more when I have a chance.”

It took me two days to get around to it.

People kept asking me and I kept saying that I knew nothing about it, but was not very interested either, because my dads were coming to pick up their monthly supply of baby food and diapers and the pantry was not ready. I would pray for the pope and for the conclave when I got to chapel. That’s all that I could do at this point in time.

Hello Brother,

I’m not quite sure that your memory is serving you here. Pope Benedict announced his resignation on February 11, 2013. On that very day you posted in the thread “Pope Benedict XVI to Resign?” Here’s your post.

You then posted 19 times on February 12 and 13. Quite a few of those posts were in a thread about Pope Benedict’s privileges in the future after his abdication. Here is the relevant page in your posting history.

So, obviously you knew about the abdication the day it happened and not three days later as claimed in your story (and obviously you had time on your hands beyond stocking the pantry, since you wrote quite a few posts). While your story might be illustrating a good point, spiritual points are best made by true stories.

Then the election came. I was excited to watch the new pope on TV. He was lucky. He was elected on an evening when I didn’t have to be anywhere. Otherwise I wouldn’t have been in his audience to pray for him as he asked.

I, too, was able to watch the election. However, I didn’t feel that the Pope was lucky to receive my prayers. I felt that** I **was lucky to receive his first Apostolic Blessing.

• PAX

 

[zab]

Hello Brother,

I’m not quite sure that your memory is serving you here. Pope Benedict announced his resignation on February 11, 2013. On that very day you posted in the thread “Pope Benedict XVI to Resign?” Here’s your post.

You then posted 19 times on February 12 and 13. Quite a few of those posts were in a thread about Pope Benedict’s privileges in the future after his abdication. Here is the relevant page in your posting history.

So, obviously you knew about the abdication the day it happened and not three days later as claimed in your story (and obviously you had time on your hands beyond stocking the pantry, since you wrote quite a few posts). While your story might be illustrating a good point, spiritual points are best made by true stories.

I, too, was able to watch the election. However, I didn’t feel that the Pope was lucky to receive my prayers. I felt that** I **was lucky to receive his first Apostolic Blessing.

• PAX

I think that you are not reading his post correctly. He didn’t claim that he learned about it “three days later”. That was the response that his friend gave him after his little bout of kidding around about the topic of “resignation”.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I think that you are not reading his post correctly. He didn’t claim that he learned about it “three days later”. That was the response that his friend gave him after his little bout of kidding around about the topic of “resignation”.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. If he didn’t know, didn’t care, and/or didn’t have time for it, as he claims, then he wouldn’t have written 9 posts on 3 different threads on the topic during the 3 days in question.

My point is that, as Brother JR often holds up his personal stories as examples of spiritual living, those spiritual stories should be true (and those who have been reading for a while know that this isn’t always the case).

• PAX

 

[zab]

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. If he didn’t know, didn’t care, and/or didn’t have time for it, as he claims, then he wouldn’t have written 9 posts on 3 different threads on the topic during the 3 days in question.

My point is that, as Brother JR often holds up his personal stories as examples of spiritual living, those spiritual stories should be true (and those who have been reading for a while know that this isn’t always the case).

• PAX

One of your links doesn’t work, not that I care. It is not important. People can be mistaken about some things. That doesn’t make them a liar. Even you can be mistaken about what he has written.

 

[choliks]

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. If he didn’t know, didn’t care, and/or didn’t have time for it, as he claims, then he wouldn’t have written 9 posts on 3 different threads on the topic during the 3 days in question.

My point is that, as Brother JR often holds up his personal stories as examples of spiritual living, those spiritual stories should be true (and those who have been reading for a while know that this isn’t always the case).

• PAX

But that’s just beside the point of this thread.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

But that’s just beside the point of this thread.

Perhaps. But I was addressing something brought up in this thread. If my response to Brother’s story is not relevant than it must follow that Brother’s story is not relevant, either.

As for people being mistaken about things, this is absolutely true. And I never called Brother a liar, since that would be making a judgement on intention which obviously we cannot not and should not do. (By the way, I don’t know which link isn’t working… when I click on them both links work).

If I was telling some story about myself to hold myself up as a spiritual example to others, and I was mistaken about my story, I would hope that someone would point it out to me, because truth is better than falsehood. Wouldn’t you want the same for the same reason?

 

[Sirach2]

Perhaps. But I was addressing something brought up in this thread. If my response to Brother’s story is not relevant than it must follow that Brother’s story is not relevant, either.

As for people being mistaken about things, this is absolutely true. And I never called Brother a liar, since that would be making a judgement on intention which obviously we cannot not should not do. (By the way, I don’t know which link isn’t working… when I click on them both links work).

If I was telling some story about myself to hold myself up as a spiritual example to others, and I was mistaken about my story, I would hope that someone would point it out to me, because truth is better than falsehood. Wouldn’t you want the same for the same reason?

Reported. Not only do you publicly disgrace Brother Jay here, but you spread your gossip at F.E. in addition. About as vicious as it gets.

 

[zab]

Perhaps. But I was addressing something brought up in this thread. If my response to Brother’s story is not relevant than it must follow that Brother’s story is not relevant, either.

As for people being mistaken about things, this is absolutely true. And I never called Brother a liar, since that would be making a judgement on intention which obviously we cannot not should not do. (By the way, I don’t know which link isn’t working… when I click on them both links work).

If I was telling some story about myself to hold myself up as a spiritual example to others, and I was mistaken about my story, I would hope that someone would point it out to me, because truth is better than falsehood. Wouldn’t you want the same for the same reason?

The link that comes up with "sorry…"is attached to the words : Here is the relevant page in your posting history

No, you did not call him a liar, but you did imply it. And now this thread has been derailed with gossip.