Real tradition does not guarantee security

[Contarini]

Isaiah 8:20"if they speak not according to this word,it is because there is no light in them"as you have wisely proven tradition to be an unreliable source of security,then scripture,I believe Is.If a thing is black even when it is white then confusion is the rule.God then is not its author1cor14:33.I totally agree with your assertions regarding a breakdown of authority.After all did 'nt old father Adam stand in the place of Everyman (and woman)“in Adam all die1cor15:22 Adam then as man kinds head,(or place of authority)but the last Adam(head over His body:which is the church) that is Christ” a life giving spirit"1cor15:45.I believe authority is seen in such as Paul an Apostle(chosen of Christ not a clutching at straws)who,as you know,commends the Bereans for comparing his own words with those of scripture,thus declaring their knowledge of the source of authority,and so to be more noble than those who did’nt.Acts17:11.for Paul himself rebukes Peter to his face for defying that same authority .Gal2:11.It is a tragic truth that most of the breakdown we see in society is due to a breakdown of authority:children against parents,subjects to kings(rulers)ect.For we are to obey secular authority,as ordained of GodRom13:1.But when it comes to ultimate authority(as I saw in my own reading this morning) "We ought to obey God rather than men"Acts5:29. Bernard Lyons.

If you’re trying to suggest that Scripture is a source of security, then all I can say is that this isn’t my experience. Many people convert to Catholicism from Protestantism because they have learned that Scripture can’t give them that security and they think Tradition can.

In fact neither Scripture nor Tradition are given us for security, but for life.

I live by Scripture. But it doesn’t give me security. It’s pretty darn unsettling, in fact.

Edwin

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Sending thread.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Dear reader,of a truth fundamental protestantism(whether speaking truly or not)and all who are like them,ply their trade in the bare letter of scripture.They are mostly a shallow and a cold breed in their professing"TRUTH". I believe them to be void of that interior light who is ever ready to reveal it john16:13.Fear no doubt animates all in whom The Holy Spirit is absent.The Gospel however I believe, is an affirmation and not a mere protest.A hearty “yea and Amen” to the truth"it is finished ";guarantee of an “expected end”,resulting in the purchase for us (with the precious blood)who believe this gospel,the promise of "my peace I give unto you"john14:27.This fruit or certain election is declared and brought to the birth(with an incorruptible seed)"by the word of God"1peter1:23.Through the holy scripture we are made "wise unto salvation"2Tim3:15.This is not done in an abstract manner,that is,by "the dead letter"2cor3:6, but is itself embodied(as in one on the Demasscus road) even today it is as a gift given from the excellent glory:Rom10:14 salvation then is sure to all the sheep of His flock:“My sheep hear my voice” john:10:27.
Whenever tradition however contradicts scripture,does not tradition and those who embody it)Protest against this same “Word of Truth”. Bernard Lyons.

 

[jimkhong]

I have a lot of respect for Br JR but I do not think this post was intended to degenirate the traditionalist siblings of our faith. There seems to be a lot of traditionalist (or similar people)-bashing or baiting in some of the posts. I am by no stretch a traditionalist and would have no qualms having a debate with one over issues (but I am increasing finding out there is a lack of consensus of what constitute a debate and how to evaluate different proposals and hypotheses - thus, continuing healthy debates become rare).

I believe the challenge of the OP is where do we personally put our trust. In the Gospel, Jesus counsel against putting one’s faith in one’s wealth or one’s position in society. Today, where do we put our faith? Just as Jesus challenged the Jews of his days for putting their faith in the Mosiac Law, would he have challenged us for putting our faith in similar insitutions of our religion? (By institutions here, I do not mean insitutes or organisations, but more of the systems and concepts)

Just as Protestants have Sola Scripura, we too have our Sola GIRM, Sola Canon Law, Sola Tradition, and (dare I say it) Sola Magisterium. In the last, what I mean are those who define our faith in the wordings of the Church’s pronouncements rather than the application of those doctrines in real everyday living - which could change with every scenario we encounter.

Do all the trappings of these religious institutions provide us with the security just as the dogmatic application of Mosaic Law did for the Pharisee, or for that matter, wealth for that rich man who wanted to build a bigger barn, socail standing for that rabbi who wanted to be greeted obsequiously in the streets? Just as the Mosaic Law was there for mankind and intended to help Jews become better Jews, are these trappings of our religions also built for us and intended to help us be better Christians, not intended to enslave us to do their bidding on the promise of eternal salvation if we but follow their every word?

So,where do we put our faith to find security? For the sake of our salvation, we need to understand each point of our faith we deem important (and like JR placing a lower priority to the Pope’s resignation, each of us may find different things we deem important at different times of our life-cycle and life experience). I personally find it hard to accept that we can outsource our salvation to the decisions of someone else, even if it is the Magisterium. What do you say to St Peter at the pearly gates - “I dunno, I just did what Father told me?”

For that matter, some of the threads I have read in reference to Br JR seem to have imbued him with some hagiographic qualities and his posts with dogmatic truth because it came from him (I could be reading too much into them). It sounds so much of clericalism that Pope Francis has railed against - though I know Br JR is no clergy and my brief interactions with him indicates a man who is equiped not to be too influenced by it. While I agree with much of what he writes, I am obliged to evaluate all that he (or anyone else) wrote using my faculties that the Church (among others) have helped informed.

I like JKRH’s example of Jesus distilling all commandments into one (or two). While I am not saying we abandon all these insitutions that the Church built for us, one must remember that they were built for us and we use them to guide us on our path to salvation. Sometimes the content of these institutions (where they were written for us) may not be sufficient and we look outside fo these institutions to help us along the path. At the end if it gets us to that one commandment that Jesus has distilled for us, does it matter?

So, in short, do we put our faith in the Holy Spirit to drive us towards the one commandment of love that Jesus left us, using the tools of the Church that we deem relevant to find that personal path that the Holy Spirit have carved out for us? For me personally, it is not just putting my faith in instutions of the Church that I need to reflect on, but also putting my faith in logic, reasoning, etc - possibly this is my spiritual reflection for 2014.

Sorry if this is too heavy digestion after a Christmas dinner but you have the rest of your life to think them through. Happy Christmas everyone.

 

[Sirach2]

Jimkhong:

For that matter, some of the threads I have read in reference to Br JR seem to have imbued him with some hagiographic qualities and his posts with dogmatic truth because it came from him

Similarly, one may find the same qualities in those of the Magisterium who are well beloved and trusted for their accuracy in expounding truth. Some revered leaders of the faith are also embued, and they have earned the right to speak for Christ and His Church when time and again, their words proved true and folks have come to rely upon them. If there could be found any fault in this on behalf of the people, it is not on the part of the leader. I have absolute confidence that those who trust their words are hearing the inner voice of the Spirit who helps them to recognize Truth. Maybe it bothers you that they express their allegiance?

“I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Now they have learned that whatever thou has given me is from thee, because the words thou hast given me is from thee. And they have received them …” Jn. 17:6-8

I personally find it hard to accept that we can outsource our salvation to the decisions of someone else, even if it is the Magisterium.
For me personally, it is not just putting my faith in instutions of the Church that I need to reflect on, but also putting my faith in logic, reasoning, etc - possibly this is my spiritual reflection for 2014.

Logic and reasoning can mislead and deceive if a person relies on their own mind to ascertain what Truth is. This is NOT from faith, and has been the source of many heresies since the time of Christ. I am saddened to read your words, fearing that you will ultimately face serious consequences of such a belief.