Real Worship?

[jaz1976]

Found this link interesting.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051122/us_nm/religion_megachurches_dc;_ylt=Aod_yQaVoAySyeM8pXczOoSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

Just a quick thought on this:

My wife is a convert to the Faith. Her parents are still very anti-Catholic. They of course are very ignorant of true and historical Christianity. My contention to them is that Protestant Churches are pastor driven and pastor focused rather than “Worship” focused.

As the article describes these mega churches, people are going for the entertainment and to hear a specific pastor speak. People go to hear Rick Warren, or Joel Olsteen. And if you listen to their preaching, the pastors talk more about themselves than about Christ. I say that this is not real worship. When do they worship God? Congregants are going for the pastor and if they get hacked off at the pastor, they just pick up and move somewhere else where they can hear what makes them feel good.

So my question is this, is going to one of these churches really participating in Sunday worship or is it just participating in Sunday entertainment?

 

[MariaG]

Most are worshipping God the best way they know how. I would not presume to judge the hearts of those who go there. There is nothing wrong with choosing a parish based on how well you like the homilies by the priest, or what form of Mass it is. I would choose a parish that had the Gregorian Chant if I could. How would it be different choosing a protestant church based on presentation style and what touches your heart and soul most?

 

[Della]

MariaG:

Most are worshipping God the best way they know how. I would not presume to judge the hearts of those who go there. There is nothing wrong with choosing a parish based on how well you like the homilies by the priest, or what form of Mass it is. I would choose a parish that had the Gregorian Chant if I could. How would it be different choosing a protestant church based on presentation style and what touches your heart and soul most?

I understand what you are saying here, but jaz has a good point. In the Catholic Mass, no matter what style of music or how good the homilies, etc., the entire focus is on the word proclaimed and the sacrifice of the altar not on personalities or amenities. Mass is the Mass whether is it celebrated in a grand cathedral with a full choir and orchestra or at a log chapel with guitar and one cantor at a summer camp. The surroundings, the people attending, nor even the individual priest are the attraction. The simple worship of God as the people of God is what we are there for.

 

[John_Paul_III]

1. This is not worship, but the new popular country club, social club activity.
2. The participants on the other hand, do not know what worship is, in our Mass we have the Liturgy of the Word, and the Eucharist, we also have prayers, songs, and a short homily, To me the homily is an opportunity for the Preist to take what was read in Mass today, and put his own 2 cents in, he pulls it together in a way that hopefully we might be able to understand the passages better, and even transform it to make use for it in our daily lives so that we can be better christians.
3. The preachers of the churches you are talking about, quote scripture only to enforce their own beliefs, it is one long homily you could say. There is no Eucharist, there is no word, there is only mans word and his point of view, he not preaching God’s word but his own word.
4. Other Churches have music focus, they just sing praises, they also attract lots of members who do not want to hear a Baptist preacher preach for over an hour, instead they want to go and sing, hear a few words, and go about their lives.

 

[MariaG]

Della:

I understand what you are saying here, but jaz has a good point. In the Catholic Mass, no matter what style of music or how good the homilies, etc., the entire focus is on the word proclaimed and the sacrifice of the altar not on personalities or amenities. Mass is the Mass whether is it celebrated in a grand cathedral with a full choir and orchestra or at a log chapel with guitar and one cantor at a summer camp. The surroundings, the people attending, nor even the individual priest are the attraction. The simple worship of God as the people of God is what we are there for.

But the protestants who go to those services, while they like the amenities, if you were to ask them, they would probably say something like “I can really feel God come alive here. The pastor really explains the Word in a way I can understand and helps me to live the Word. I can really enter into a true worship of God during the worship music. etc.” The amenities are just that, amenities, not the core of what they like about it. But since they do not have the Eucharist, is it any wonder that it helps them to worship God when the music touches their heart, or the pastor really makes the Word come alive? They are seeking to worship God. Their job is harder without the Eucharist therefore the “entertainment” becomes key to their ability to enter into worship of Him.

 

[mercygate]

MariaG:

But the protestants who go to those services, while they like the amenities, if you were to ask them, they would probably say something like “I can really feel God come alive here. The pastor really explains the Word in a way I can understand and helps me to live the Word. I can really enter into a true worship of God during the worship music. etc.” The amenities are just that, amenities, not the core of what they like about it. But since they do not have the Eucharist, is it any wonder that it helps them to worship God when the music touches their heart, or the pastor really makes the Word come alive? They are seeking to worship God. Their job is harder without the Eucharist therefore the “entertainment” becomes key to their ability to enter into worship of Him.

Great points, as always, MariaG. And Catholics should be the last people on earth to criticize the use of “accessories” in worship. The Catholic Church wrote the book on art, architecture, music . . .

 

[Della]

MariaG:

But the protestants who go to those services, while they like the amenities, if you were to ask them, they would probably say something like “I can really feel God come alive here. The pastor really explains the Word in a way I can understand and helps me to live the Word. I can really enter into a true worship of God during the worship music. etc.” The amenities are just that, amenities, not the core of what they like about it. But since they do not have the Eucharist, is it any wonder that it helps them to worship God when the music touches their heart, or the pastor really makes the Word come alive? They are seeking to worship God. Their job is harder without the Eucharist therefore the “entertainment” becomes key to their ability to enter into worship of Him.

But that understanding of worship traps people in a ceaseless cycle of trying to feel something every time they go to church, instead of going to worship God “in season and out.” I got burned out on getting the next spiritual high when I was a member of the Assemblies of God. Sunday worship isn’t about that at all, but about the people of God listening to God’s word and offering the one sacrifice of Christ upon the altar. No amount of amenities aimed at exciting our senses can do that for us. It’s not having amenities that is bad, but the reliance upon receiving spiritual or emotional consolations every time we attend any service of the Church that is. It doesn’t sustain us because consolations aren’t worship but may be the result of worship. True worship always involves sacrifice. It does not at all depend upon how we feel about it.

 

[mercygate]

Della:

But that understanding of worship traps people in a ceaseless cycle of trying to feel something every time they go to church, instead of going to worship God “in season and out.” I got burned out on getting the next spiritual high when I was a member of the Assemblies of God. Sunday worship isn’t about that at all, but about the people of God listening to God’s word and offering the one sacrifice of Christ upon the altar. No amount of amenities aimed at exciting our senses can do that for us. It’s not having amenities that is bad, but the reliance upon receiving spiritual or emotional consolations every time we attend any service of the Church that is. It doesn’t sustain us because consolations aren’t worship but may be the result of worship. True worship always involves sacrifice. It does not at all depend upon how we feel about it.

Great points, Della. But you could say, in defense of AOG-style worship, and to use a timely image, that it is like “the kids table” and can serve to bring people to Christ before they are able to eat at “the grown-ups table.”

 

[edward_george]

I tuned to TBN one night (not sure why…just channel surfing I guess) and listened to a TV preacher at the start of his service…he went on for a little bit about something (I don’t remember what…just some introductory remarks I guess) and then told the congregants to “please stand for the Word of God.” With that, a verse appeared at the bottom of the screen. The man then proceeded to cross the stage to a board decorated with all sorts of graphics that outlined his new sermon series…I listened for another ten minutes or so–never heared the Word of God…just an advertisement for his sermon series.

Right…that’s worship…worship of what, though?

-ACEGC

 

[Egg4christ]

Edward_George, i would be careful about using only that experience to evaluate all megachurches.

jaz1976, something you said struck me as odd. Although i can’t speak for Joel Olsteen, what you said about Rick warren seems weird. My Dad has gone to see him speak personally, and notes that the most striking thing about him is how humble and down to earth he is.
Yeah, i’m sure some people have really poor intentions. about going to churches like these. They like them because they’re big and loud. But, there are many who like the fact that they can do more, make a bigger impact… I don’t know, it doesn’t seem right to be able to paint them all with such a wide brush.
As to worship, well, i suppose Catholics and I will never see eye to eye on this. i don’t see how you classify the eucharist as worship. I just don’t. And you, think that the worship i have is empty and shallow, and done solely out of feelings. unfortuantely, i don’t know how to explain it… We just have to disagree.

 

[MariaG]

mercygate:

Great points, Della. But you could say, in defense of AOG-style worship, and to use a timely image, that it is like “the kids table” and can serve to bring people to Christ before they are able to eat at “the grown-ups table.”

\

I agree with Mercygate, Della. Your points are true. However, that is all they know and to call it entertainment instead of worship is insensitive just plain wrong. When you were there, were you less sincere in your desire to worship God than you are now? I know I wasn’t, but I just didn’t know anything different.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Egg4christ:

Edward_George, i would be careful about using only that experience to evaluate all megachurches.

:yup: Protestant churches need to be judge individually. And just because a church has a bunch of “accessories” doesn’t mean the hearts of the people are not seeking God.

jaz1976, something you said struck me as odd. Although i can’t speak for Joel Olsteen, what you said about Rick warren seems weird. My Dad has gone to see him speak personally, and notes that the most striking thing about him is how humble and down to earth he is.
Yeah, i’m sure some people have really poor intentions. about going to churches like these. They like them because they’re big and loud. But, there are many who like the fact that they can do more, make a bigger impact… I don’t know, it doesn’t seem right to be able to paint them all with such a wide brush.

Agreed.

As to worship, well, i suppose Catholics and I will never see eye to eye on this. i don’t see how you classify the eucharist as worship. I just don’t.
Well, if you truly believed Christ became physically present, how could you not?

And you, think that the worship i have is empty and shallow, and done solely out of feelings.
Not all Catholics think this. But most would say your worship is incomplete without the Real Presence.

unfortuantely, i don’t know how to explain it… We just have to disagree.
Faith is sometimes hard to put into words. But remember, not all Catholics dismiss your worship as shallow. Incomplete . but not shallow:nope: .

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Della]

\

I agree with Mercygate, Della. Your points are true. However, that is all they know and to call it entertainment instead of worship is insensitive just plain wrong. When you were there, were you less sincere in your desire to worship God than you are now? I know I wasn’t, but I just didn’t know anything different.

God Bless,
Maria

I never called Protestant worship “entertainment.” I never even used the word. You are confusing my comments with someone else’s. And I didn’t say that what they have isn’t a form of worship–an offering up of prayer and praise, which is what they are doing.

These folks mean well, and it’s all they have, but true worship involves the offering of a sacrifice. They can’t do that because they don’t have a priesthood. They can have a spiritual union with Christ’s sacrifice, but only because the Church offers it daily on its altars.

 

[MariaG]

Della:

I never called Protestant worship “entertainment.” I never even used the word. You are confusing my comments with someone else’s. And I didn’t say that what they have isn’t a form of worship–an offering up of prayer and praise, which is what they are doing.

Oops. Sorry. I looked back and it was the OP original question

originally posted by jaz1976

So my question is this, is going to one of these churches really participating in Sunday worship or is it just participating in Sunday entertainment?

These folks mean well, and it’s all they have, but true worship involves the offering of a sacrifice. They can’t do that because they don’t have a priesthood. They can have a spiritual union with Christ’s sacrifice, but only because the Church offers it daily on its altars.

True worship or incomplete? I would say it is true worship as far as it goes, but just incomplete.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Della]

MariaG:

True worship or incomplete? I would say it is true worship as far as it goes, but just incomplete.

God Bless,
Maria

Well, I was using the word true to mean proper. I agree with your interpretation, though.

 

[ben_dy]

jaz1976:

Found this link interesting.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051122/us_nm/religion_megachurches_dc;_ylt=Aod_yQaVoAySyeM8pXczOoSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

So my question is this, is going to one of these churches really participating in Sunday worship or is it just participating in Sunday entertainment?

To be overly simplistic, in my mind worship of God implies ‘giving’ to God: this type of worship seems to place all importance on what one will ‘get’ from attending - from latte to support groups. It sounds much more like socializing than worship and while I believe that there is - and should be - a social and communal role that every parish should seek after, I don’t think these roles should be confused with worship.

I’ll be honest and say that the depiction of the ‘church’ in the article just horrifies me.

 

[jaz1976]

Egg4christ:

Edward_George, i would be careful about using only that experience to evaluate all megachurches.

jaz1976, something you said struck me as odd. Although i can’t speak for Joel Olsteen, what you said about Rick warren seems weird. My Dad has gone to see him speak personally, and notes that the most striking thing about him is how humble and down to earth he is.
.

Hello Egg4Christ,

Wow,

I had no idea that this would spark such discussion. However, I knew that some of the comments already made would be. First of all, I am not judging anyones heart. Please stop accusing me of this as this is a strawman arguement that I will not fall for and I will not attempt to justify my comments. I am judging actions that are called worship. I am sorry that you do not see the Eucharist as worship. Especially since this is what Jesus told us to do. And I am sure that Rick Warren is a very nice and down to earth man. I am no way judging his character. However, he purports to be his own pope of his own church when he claims to be able to interpret scripture for himself. This only leads to error as we see from over 30,000 plus protestant denominations.

 

[MariaG]

jaz1976:

Wow,

I had no idea that this would spark such discussion. However, I knew that some of the comments already made would be. First of all, I am not judging anyones heart. Please stop accusing me of this as this is a strawman arguement that I will not fall for and I will not attempt to justify my comments. I am judging actions that are called worship.

.

Okay, your intent is not to judge the hearts of these people.

But let’s review a minute.

Originally posted by jaz1976
My wife is a convert to the Faith. Her parents are still very anti-Catholic. They of course are very ignorant of true and historical Christianity.** My contention to them is that Protestant Churches are pastor driven and pastor focused rather than “Worship” focused.**

Well, I would agree that if a there is not a inspiring pastor that a church will stagnate. This is the unfortunate effect when the Real Presence is not the focus. But to say the pastor is the focus instead of the worship is a leap. Members would say the pastor inspires the worship, and is able to help them focus on God.

As the article describes these mega churches, people are going for the entertainment and to hear a specific pastor speak.

While the article does say they like the entertainment and specific pastors, it says they like the MESSAGE given.

from “Megachurches” draw big crowds

Sauser said he does not attend Willow Creek for its size but for the teaching and the ministry.

When the thousands at Willow Creek break into smaller groups for Bible study, the men’s ministry, the special needs ministry and the adult ministry, a lot of life change occurs. “In the small groups, that is where it really gets good,” Sauser said.

And later in the article

On the first floor Danielle Jackola of Hoffman Estates, Illinois, a mother of two who recently moved to the area from California, has come in search of a church. After listening to dynamic lead pastor Gene Appel speak on family and passing the baton of faith from one generation to the next, she liked the message – and the entertainment.
“I had never been to something like that. I think that is one of the ways of getting your numbers up … to get the message across but to keep it fun and upbeat. And more contemporary to get more young families involved,” she said a few days later – after deciding to join the church.

The article talks about how the she likes the message wrapped up in an upbeat and entertaining way. She is not going for a particular speaker for the entertainment value. But does not deny that the “accessories”, the entertainment value, helps her to stay and hear the message in the first place.

For Catholics, it would be similar to choosing a different parish based on what kind Mass or music and yes even the priest.

People are not saying they are going for a particular pastor and entertainment, they say they are going because they like the how the *message *is presented by those pastors. This is a critical difference.

People go to hear Rick Warren, or Joel Olsteen. And if you listen to their preaching, the pastors talk more about themselves than about Christ.

I have not listened to the preaching. But I did read the book “Purpose Driven Life”. If the preaching is anything like the book, he uses many personal stories from his life to try to teach the message of Christ. This does not mean he is not getting Christ’s message across. He is just using down to earth examples to show people the message of Christ the best way he knows how.

I say that this is not real worship. When do they worship God?

Since I find your above analysis faulty, this conclusion I also find erroneous. Most would consider the time of worship during the worship music and prayer. The preaching is to help them live out the Word.

Congregants are going for the pastor and if they get hacked off at the pastor, they just pick up and move somewhere else where they can hear what makes them feel good.

Yes they can just move elsewhere. But you are assuming selfish motives. Some may certainly be selfish. Others truly believe they are doing God’s will by moving. You are looking at actions and placing sweeping reasons to all people.

**
So my question is this, is going to one of these churches really participating in Sunday worship or is it just participating in Sunday entertainment?

And my answer would be that since I cannot know what is the heart of each person, I do not know. But I do know that some are really participating in Sunday worship the best they know how.

God Bless,
Maria**

 

[jaz1976]

Hello Maria,

I think that in an effort to be ecuminical you are over doing it just a bit. Once again, I knew that I would be accused of “judging the hearts of other people.” This phrase seems so cliche. I hear it so much whenever I am in discussion about doctrine or worship styles. It is really quite simple, I stated that Protestant Churches are pastor driven rather than worship driven. This is even more true in the non-denom churches that I am specifically talking about in my post.

Lets think about it for a minute. In these churches, when the pastor leaves or passes on, what happens to these churches… They split up or cease to be altogether. People in these churches routinely switch churches because they like what one pastor has to say over another. The article in question confirms my point that people go to churches to hear a message that they want to hear and like. In other words, if one pastor is delivering a message that they do not like, they will go somewhere else to hear what they do like.

You compare this church jumping with going to a different parish because of the music or the liturgy. However, you are wrong on one fundamental point: the message is the same and the teachings are the same no matter what parish you go to. The Catholic Church is universal whereas the non-denom churches teach what the pastor thinks is right.

I also take exception to your reply about Rick Warren and his using examples of his own life to preach the message of Jesus. My contention is this, preachers such as Rick Warren use more stories of themselves than they use the Word of God. However, these men will tell you that they are a Bible Church. I know what you are saying here; they use their life experiences to try and teach the Word of God. But the Word of God according to who? Do you see the problem here? They are teaching the Word of God according to Rick Warren, or whoever else you want to put here. And this goes back to people going to a church because they want to hear a specific pastor, thus the church is pastor driven.

Let me ask you a question, do you really think that if Rick Warren left SaddleBack Church it would still exist?

So, this is the last time I defend myself as far as judging the hearts of others. It is a ridiculous allegation and unfounded. I will continue to defend my comments as I feel they are true and have yet to be refuted.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Jaz:wave:

jaz1976:

Hello Maria,

I think that in an effort to be ecuminical you are over doing it just a bit. Once again, I knew that I would be accused of “judging the hearts of other people.” This phrase seems so cliche. I hear it so much whenever I am in discussion about doctrine or worship styles.
.

No. I am not trying to be ecuminical at all. I just happen to know as a revert/convert what I did when in the protestant churches. I worshipped God to the best of my knowledge. (And since my mom left the Catholic Church when I was 4 and I was not taught anything about the Catholic Church at all, I am more of a convert than a revert.)

And to be technical, I never said you were judging their hearts. I said in order for me to pass an opinion I would have to judge their hearts. I can’t tell whether or not people worship God by looking at the actions. And since I know what was in my heart, the worship of God, I disagree with you.

It is really quite simple, I stated that Protestant Churches are pastor driven rather than worship driven. This is even more true in the non-denom churches that I am specifically talking about in my post.

And my answer was quite simple. I disagreed with you. I believe that they are worship driven. But I think that because of the lack of the Real Presence of Christ, the personality of the pastor is critical for helping people worship God.

Lets think about it for a minute. In these churches, when the pastor leaves or passes on, what happens to these churches… They split up or cease to be altogether.

And I agree with you on the critical neccesity of the pastor.

I just disagreed with your conclusion you draw from this. I do not believe that just because a pastor is critical to the membership that it is pastor driven. I believe the pastor his very good at helping facilitate worship.

People in these churches routinely switch churches because they like what one pastor has to say over another.

Sometimes, yes. They move because they like a health and wealth gospel, or they don’t have to hear things they do not like.
But you are lumping all together.

Some move just because they like the music style, and they like a pastor better. A different pastor can help facillitate worship better than others for individual people.

Once again, you are evaluating the actions and coming to a conclusion that I do not agree with.

In other words, if one pastor is delivering a message that they do not like, they will go somewhere else to hear what they do like.

Or maybe they just like the way the same message, the message of Christ, is delivered by someone else.

You compare this church jumping with going to a different parish because of the music or the liturgy. However, you are wrong on one fundamental point: the message is the same and the teachings are the same no matter what parish you go to. The Catholic Church is universal whereas the non-denom churches teach what the pastor thinks is right.

I have to disagree with you here too. We just got a new priest about a year ago. The Homilies are much different now. The readings are the same. The message from those readings can be quite different. The teaching should be the teaching of the Church, but each priest can emphasize different points, or not emphasize anything at all.

But I do agree that each Protestant Church (non-denom or not to a certain extent) teach what the pastor thinks is right. But that does not automatically translate into pastor driven instead of Worship driven. It transtlates into worship according to pastor Tim, or worship according to pastor Fred.

(con)