Real Worship?

[MariaG]

(con)

originally posted by jaz1979
I also take exception to your reply about Rick Warren and his using examples of his own life to preach the message of Jesus.

It is my opinion that these pastors use their examples from their own life to help people see the message of Christ applied to real life.

My contention is this, preachers such as Rick Warren use more stories of themselves than they use the Word of God.

I would not disagree with you. I have seen a 2 hour sermon on 3 verses from the Bible, packed with large amounts of personal experiences.

But once again, that does not me they are doing this out of ego, or selfishness or any other reason but to help their congregation live out the Word of God. There may of course be exceptions to that, but just as I ask others not to judge the Catholic Church by a few perverted priests, we should not judge the Protestants by the actions of a few egoistical pastors.

However, these men will tell you that they are a Bible Church. I know what you are saying here; they use their life experiences to try and teach the Word of God. But the Word of God according to who? Do you see the problem here? They are teaching the Word of God according to Rick Warren, or whoever else you want to put here.

Of course I see the problem. It is the main downfalling of all protestants, but especially nondenominational ones.

And this goes back to people going to a church because they want to hear a specific pastor, thus the church is pastor driven.

But here again, I disagree with your conclusion. Just because they like to hear the message of Christ (according to Rick Warren) does not mean they do it for the wrong reasons. The reason they go is to be able to enter into worship with God. And Rick Warren, and others with their mega churches help them to do that.

Let me ask you a question, do you really think that if Rick Warren left SaddleBack Church it would still exist?

No, I don’t. But I have never denied the importance of individual pastors to the membership numbers of these churches. But I do disagree that it means that the churches are pastor driven rather than worship driven. The goal of most of the people in these churches is to worship God. Rick Warren and all the individual programs at the Church help them do that.

So, this is the last time I defend myself as far as judging the hearts of others. It is a ridiculous allegation and unfounded.

**But I have not said you are judging the hearts of others. **

I said in my opinion to the your question, do you think these churches are entertainment driven or worship driven that I could not tell that because I cannot judge each individuals heart but believe for the most part that it is worship driven based on my own personal experiences. So I know for a fact that at least in one case, my own, that you are wrong when you say they pastor driven instead of worship driven.

I will continue to defend my comments as I feel they are true and have yet to be refuted

And I will continue to disagree with you. And obviously, I feel I have refuted them very well.

I think you have taken some good points but reached erroneous conclusions with your information.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

ben_dy:

To be overly simplistic, in my mind worship of God implies ‘giving’ to God: this type of worship seems to place all importance on what one will ‘get’ from attending - from latte to support groups. It sounds much more like socializing than worship and while I believe that there is - and should be - a social and communal role that every parish should seek after, I don’t think these roles should be confused with worship.

I’ll be honest and say that the depiction of the ‘church’ in the article just horrifies me.

I do not think that those going are confusing the lattes and the support groups with worship. Do some come just for the lattes and support groups? Probably. But in the Protestant churches, surrounding yourself with “like minded” people is very important. But it should not to be confused with or to replace the worship of God, and I did not see in that article, anyone doing so.

And I am truly confused. What exactly horrifies you about this church?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[jaz1976]

Hello Maria,

I have read and re read your replies and still do not see how you refute my original point. Protestant worship is based on who the pastor of that church is and thus is pastor focused. For Catholics, it does not matter who the priest is; the Mass is the Mass. It doesn’t even matter if it is in a language I do not understand. It is still worship with the liturgical actions.

Now my intent of this post was to put a topic out there that has been very relevant to me recently. My wife is a convert and agrees with my views. Her parents are still very anti-Catholic. And when I say anti-Catholic, I mean anti-Catholic. My father-in-law has told my wife that he does not like me simply because I am Catholic and blames me for brainwashing his daughter (my wife). He is also angry that I had my baby daughter baptized and will not allow her to go to their church if I am not present. So this is a very hot topic in my life right now.

My original intent was not to insult anyone, however, I am not going to walk on pins and needles either.

You obviously disagree with my views on this and I will admit that I am not comming from a Protestant background as you are. However, that does not make my view on this any less valid and I still hold to my original contention that Protestant worship, in particular the non-denominational churches, are pastor driven and pastor focused. People in these churches go to listen to the pastor preach, and base their “worship” experience on how good the sermon was. They may be worshiping the best they know how as you put it, but is this “Real Worship”?

Scripture is very clear that God demands worship, and by reading scripture we see that the worship that God demands is very formed and deliberate (in other words, liturgical). So, while I respect the background that you are from and am sure that you still have many good friends in the Protestant faith, I do disagree and fail to see how you refuted my point.

God Bless,

 

[starrs0]

I’m a convert to the Church from Protestantism and after comparing it with Mass I have to say that while a Protestant service can be moving and meaningful for those involved without the Real Presence however it is inferior. Nothing no matter how helpful a sermon might be can compare with the Real Presence made reality on Catholic and Orthodox Altars Without it a church isn’t really a Church.

 

[MariaG]

starrs0:

I’m a convert to the Church from Protestantism and after comparing it with Mass I have to say that while a Protestant service can be moving and meaningful for those involved without the Real Presence however it is inferior.

I completely agree.

 

[ben_dy]

MariaG:

What exactly horrifies you about this church?

God Bless,
Maria

What horrifies me? Where to begin…?

I don’t expect today’s church to look much like the early Jerusalem or Pauline communal/patron churches. I don’t even expect them to be similar to a ‘church’ of five or six decades ago - as societies change, the ‘practice’ of ‘church’ changes: but even in the Catholic Church where changes in practice over the past 40 years have infuriated some one thing that has not changed are the doctrines behind the practice. The priest and the people may no longer ‘face God’ as one during the consecrations but the bread and wine still become the Body and Blood of Christ. Changes in the way Catholics worship have been made largely with the reasoning that the whole people of God, the Body of Christ gathered together, might feel (or actually be) more than onlookers and more as participants in the liturgy. I have no problem with that - I wholly accept the changes save when they stray too far in over-emphasizing parts of the Mass which are secondary to the Eucharistic celebration: homilies which become more than simple lessons taken from the day’s Biblical readings and become entertaining oration having nothing to do with the readings and everything to do with a priest’s or deacon’s charisma and charm and skills of a naturally likable and gifted orator. There are other things that I could point out that are distinctly Catholic, but I’ll return to the depiction of the non-denominational church activities depicted in the article.

I read nothing of worship in it - nothing of “what am I giving to God?”. As you have said, worship can take many forms but it should not be about self-fulfillment but rather God-Fulfillment and I saw nothing in that article that indicated any sort of understanding of that. It is easy these days to compare a church (Catholic or non-denominational) to a shopping mall: as the article begins it makes that comparison in the description of the “parking lot fit for a shopping mall” - and the similarities don’t stop there as I’m sure the writers realized.

The first bit of information that we’re given as one of the things these mega-churches can offer with which smaller churches cannot compete? “They have the resources to produce a professional-quality production every weekend, with music (often specially composed for the occasion and backed by a professional ensemble) and video and lighting and computer graphics and a preacher who knows how to work a crowd.”

So in this newly defined worship space (and what is a church? It is, and, I believe, should be, a place where Christians gather to worship God) is not simply assuring us of a sound system so that the words of those who have spoken or sung vocal parts in the liturgy can be heard, but assuring us of a “professional-quality production every weekend” (and, I suppose, if it were a Catholic church, one that would assure us of a professional-quality production for daily Mass as well - 24 hours for those churches which have perpetual Adoration chapels) as well as - more important than the “video and lighting and computer graphics”, I would think, “a preacher who knows how to work a crowd.” Is that something taught in seminary these days? It’s no longer enough to preach a sermon with a message - in the mega-church, pastors must be tuned in to the psychology of working the crowd, or the crowd may well head down the street to join the pastor who understands that a high-level of emotion must be maintained to keep the crowd in thrall.

But the article has yet to say anything about worship - save to call those gather ‘worshipers’.

What else does the article have to say at this point - well, that because there are so many members it’s simple to find support groups and special interest groups so that whether it’s for watching stock car racing or Bible study one can always find like-minded church members. This may be one of the most significant thing that the mega-church can offer: with such large memberships one is much more likely - if one is naturally a ‘joiner’ - to find other members with the same, or similar, interests, problems, etc… And that leads us to the real crux of the article - what really is important: the ability in which small groups can be formed. Do these small groups have anything to do with worship? It doesn’t really seem to matter - because the point of worship is not “the” point at all: “the” point is ‘what can I get out of this experience?’ ‘how am I going to benefit by being a member of the church?’

…continued…

 

[ben_dy]

…continued…

One member is quoted as saying that he doesn’t attend one of the mega-churches because of it’s size but for the “teaching and the ministry” and that sounds like a very good thing - except for the fact that he’s also quoted as praising the “resources” which allow his church to have hundred’s of smaller groups. So while he doesn’t attend the church for it’s size, if the church didn’t have the size to begin with it wouldn’t be able to sponsor the smaller groups where, he says, “that is where it really gets good.” Sounds as if it’s a mixed - or mixed-up - message.

The article nears it’s end with:

Megachurches are addressing the needs of Americans who are disinterested in “traditional church” yet want to deepen a sense of meaning in their lives. Classes and volunteer ministry opportunities lead to a deeper commitment. “They have opened worship to the seeker and the unsaved rather than reserving Sunday worship for the saved and sanctified,” Thuma added.

There’s no definition of the ‘traditional church’ - but we know that the traditional church is not offering the self-fulfillment found in these mega-churches - if they were, people would not be ‘flocking’ to the mega-church. The closing statements seem to indicate that EVERYONE can participate in some kind of ministry - no need to relegate yourself to humility and prayer, or become part of a prison ministry (which, really, lacks any kind of community visibility), or visit the sick, etc. No, this sounds more like the ‘haves’ ministering to others like themselves. And I take great exception to the last sentence in the quote - that these churches are most dissimilar to traditional Sunday worship because the cater to the “seeker and the unsaved” rather than for the “saved and the sanctified”… while the confession of sin during the liturgy may be somewhat unique to Catholics, I don’t know of any Christian church that does not welcome - and even proselytize - to the “seeker and the unsaved”: that comment seems a gross distortion of the most basic of Christian teachings.

Again - after reading the article - what horrified me is that there is no mention of worship of God. While the article was short it provided a message that, to me, sounded more as if it was an advertisement for a collection of group-therapy classes coming together once a week to be dazzled and entertained. This is not the first article - or the first exposure - I’ve had with non-denominational mega-churches (although I have never been a member, personally) and it seems to be replaying the same message over and over again: what am I going to get out of the experience. God is only in the equation if he’s upbeat and not very demanding. Sometimes it seems He’s not - as I understand Him - in the equation at all.

 

[MariaG]

jaz1976:

Hello Maria,

I have read and re read your replies and still do not see how you refute my original point. Protestant worship is based on who the pastor of that church is and thus is pastor focused.

No. Protestant worship is* facillitated *by the pastor of the Church. The focus is on trying to worship Christ. Thus, a good pastor can help focus the worship, a bad pastor does not. It is not focused on the pastor, but Christ.

I do not agree with this basic premise of yours. I do agree with you that the pastor is critical. But you go from critical to saying that this means it is focused on the pastor. I just don’t agree.

And I also don’t see how it is possible to truly know whether or not each individual person is focused on the pastor or on Christ.

For Catholics, it does not matter who the priest is; the Mass is the Mass. It doesn’t even matter if it is in a language I do not understand. It is still worship with the liturgical actions.

I agree. We do not even need to understand the words to be able to worship. Mass is so packed full of meaning all leading to Christ and the Real Presence.

But I think the biggest mistake Catholics make about Protestants as well as Protestants about Catholics is this:

It is not that Protestants do not have worship focused services, it is just they have so much less to do so with. And for some Catholics, so used to the Real Presence of Christ, it seems as if the focus is not on Christ, since His Real Presence is missing. This is a mistake to think that those present are not trying to focus on Christ.

I actually find it ironic. Most fundamental protestants talk about “me and Jesus” alot. They seem to be unable to comprehend intercessory prayer and think it somehow gets in the way of “me and Jesus”. Yet they are too dependent on particular pastors to help facilitate their worship experience with Christ.

Now my intent of this post was to put a topic out there that has been very relevant to me recently. My wife is a convert and agrees with my views.
That is a good thing. But that does not mean you are right Especially since I too have friends who agree with me.
Actually, I think we view this, ultimately, much the same way:bigyikes: . But I see the cup, (those who seek Christ) as 3/4 full in protestant churches. I think you see it as more 1/4 seeking Christ (worship) and the rest just liking the pastor and what they have to say. At least I hope you can concede that there are some who are not focused so much on the pastor, but focused on Christ?

(con)

 

[MariaG]

(con)

Her parents are still very anti-Catholic. And when I say anti-Catholic, I mean anti-Catholic. My father-in-law has told my wife that he does not like me simply because I am Catholic and blames me for brainwashing his daughter (my wife). He is also angry that I had my baby daughter baptized and will not allow her to go to their church if I am not present. So this is a very hot topic in my life right now.

I am sorry to hear there is so much strife in your life.

My original intent was not to insult anyone, however, I am not going to walk on pins and needles either.

You have not insulted me yet. I just disagree with you.

I do know though that you position can be very hurtful to Protestants, especially protestant pastors on their way home to Rome. There have been similar threads in the past, although not a nicely presented. Those take the position of “playing at worship”. Imagine how you would feel, your life’s work to lead people to Christ and have people accuse you of focusing on yourself?I feel yours has not been like those at all, yours has been very cordial.

***I submit to you that most try to focus on Christ, but need a good pastor to do so. ***

You obviously disagree with my views on this and I will admit that I am not comming from a Protestant background as you are. However, that does not make my view on this any less valid and I still hold to my original contention that Protestant worship, in particular the non-denominational churches, are pastor driven and pastor focused. People in these churches go to listen to the pastor preach, and base their “worship” experience on how good the sermon was. They may be worshiping the best they know how as you put it, but is this “Real Worship”?

Yes. It is real worship. It is just not complete. Protestants have true Christianity, just not complete. For this statement to be true, they must worship God. For that to be true, all focus cannot be on the pastor.

Scripture is very clear that God demands worship, and by reading scripture we see that the worship that God demands is very formed and deliberate (in other words, liturgical). So, while I respect the background that you are from and am sure that you still have many good friends in the Protestant faith, I do disagree and fail to see how you refuted my point.

And I still think I refuted your point very well, point by point.

Ultimately, we disagree.

God Bless,

God Bless and I pray that God will resolve your family’s strife in a way to Honor and Glorify God!

Maria

 

[SolaChristo]

What am I missing here?
Ive been to many Protestant churches and not once was worship pastor focused.
Worship in the churches Ive been has been the singing of hymns of praise and worshipping Almighty God. Ive been to some worship services that the praise and worship lasted three hours.
“God inhabits the praises of His people” the real presence of God is in worship to Him.

 

[MariaG]

SolaChristo:

What am I missing here?

The Real Presence of Christ.

Ive been to many Protestant churches and not once was worship pastor focused.

That is my observation also.

Worship in the churches Ive been has been the singing of hymns of praise and worshipping Almighty God. Ive been to some worship services that the praise and worship lasted three hours.
“God inhabits the praises of His people” the real presence of God is in worship to Him.

The Real Presence of Christ is when through a miracle that is hard to comprehend, is made present, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

I agree with you that worship of God is present in Protestant churches. But the Real Presence of Christ, as defined in the Catholic Church (for 2 thousand years), is not in Protestant Churches.

Worship is certainly happening in the praise and worship songs. I agree with you that the focus of that worship is Christ, not the pastor.

God Bless,
Maria
/QUOTE]

 

[flameburns623]

Some random thoughts here.

I have been struggling my way through a book called “Luther For Armchair Theologians” by Steve Paulson, Westminster John Knox Press, 2004. (The Lutheran Church/Missouri Synod is headquartered here in St. Louis, and I often alternatate between listening to the Roman Catholic radio stations and the local Lutheran one–which in turn has led me to wish to try to get my brain around the gist of Lutheran theology. This book isn’t helping as much as I wish, but mebbe in trying to articulate some of the ideas in it I will find that I’ve picked up more than I realized). One of the themes of this book is that Luther aparently thought that when God wants to call souls to Christ, He sends a Preacher—someone whose job it is to exegete the Word of God by the power of the Holy Ghost in a way that touches the person’s heart. (Note especially Chapter 1, pages 13-22: ‘In the Beginning . . . A Preacher: What Is Proclamation?’ It strikes me that a lot of the preacher-centeredness of many Evangelical denominations and sects might go back to this emphasis of Luther upon preaching.

To be VERY fair–I cannot vouch for how accurately Paulson depicts Lutheran theology–it IS a book written for laypeople to start with, and may oversimpify or distort things. Not to mention that I as a reader may be missing the author’s point. Over and beyond this, Lutheran theology seems to me to be every bit as Eucharistically-centered as Catholic theology. (In one or two cases I have mistaken the Lutheran station for the Catholic station, when trying to tune in using radios whose dials were missing or inaccurate). The Lutheran broadcasters certainly have great disdain for Joel Osteen and other leaders of the mega-Church movement. So I am only suggesting that the impetus for much that is seen in Evangelicalism generally goes back to what was apprently a theme of Martin Luther’s.

Someone expressed the thought that worship should encompass ‘sacrifice’. I would observe that Protestants in general believe that the only truly acceptable sacrifice to God is a ‘broken spirit and a contrite heart’. See Psalm 51:16-17 (I am citing the Douay-Rheims version, whose chapters and verses are numbered slightly differently):

*17 O Lord, thou wilt open my lips: and my mouth shall declare thy praise. 18 For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt offerings thou wilt not be delighted. 19 A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. *
**

Many Protestants are looking for worship which allows them to express that brokenness and contrition emotively. I would hasten to add that Protestant thinkers for centuries have cautioned their followers AGAINST the merely-ephemeral and superficial feelings-centered sort of approach to worship, generated by the trappings of worship and by clever manipulation. Not all Protestants encourage emotionalism. A preacher in the Reformed tradition, Alistair Begg, has just finished up a series on Christian worship which I have followed with no small measure of interest: he makes exactly this point. See the following, under the headings “Acceptable Worship” parts A and B:

truthforlife.org/listen_daily.php

In fact, some versions of Protestantism are so very cereberal that Catholic converts such as Thomas Howard have warned them to keep in mind that this can lead to a sort of manichaeanism in which the physical is separated from the spiritual. (See especially Evangelical Is Not Enough, chapter 2, Spirit and Flesh: Sundered Forever or Reunited?, pages 21-39, Ignatius Press, 1984). A great many Protestant churches are very formal, stark and rather bare, in reaction to the trappings of the RCC. The mega-churches are mostly a late innovation, though of course ecstatic and emotion-driven denominations have been around for a long time.

So far as ‘picking and choosing’ one’s preacher: Mainstream denominations did not encourage their members to church-shop even within the denomination, though many have always done so. In some cases they did so with good reason–a particular minister denied the essentials of the Christian faith or was simply incapable of communicating the Gospel meaningfully.

I must commend MariaG. for the fairness and balance of her posts on this whole topic.