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Lisa4Catholics
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The Holy Spirit is where the Magesterium gets its wisdom EDWING
Reality Check: Are you an obedient Catholic, or an unfaithful heterodox?
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FiremanFrank
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Edwin, after all the posts that you have made…
PLEASE TELL ME THAT YOU KNEW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTHORITATIVELY GUIDES THE MAGISTERIUM !
If not, then please delete all your previous posts until you have re-catechized yourself in Church Teaching.
Thank You.
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surfinpure
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Count me as an orthodox. If the Church teaches it, I’ll do it. Sometimes that’s been painful for me in the past, but I’ve gradually learned to submit and now feel very happy following the Magisterium. 
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jimmy
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Fully Obedient (Orthodox) Catholic
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LSK
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of course fully obedient - except when I sin - orthodox Catholic - with a full understanding of how the PEOPLE in the Church have made some mistakes that have harmed others and caused them to HATE the CHURCH…I know I had to ask for forgiveness and GIVE forgiveness when I “came home”.
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FiremanFrank
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](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=8385)Gottle of Geer[
Your statment reminds me of a certain Scripture passage …
Because if it is, see the Scripture passags above.
What you have mistakenly have tried to illustrate here is merely people clarifying what they could not see. The Truth was still (and always will be) the same and totally unalterable.
Now do you understand?
Any good Moral Theologian will tell you that for the most part - VIRTUES ARE LEARNED. So yes, the CCC can be EXTREMELY helpful in developing the moral virtues, of which Prudence is one of them.
Because BOTH of them have refuted the silly statements made above. Even though Christ was well aware that we will sin, that fact DID NOT stop Him from saying “Be perfect as the Father is perfect”. In translation geez, that means this:
“You know what the right thing to do is because I have taught you this, and my Church has taught you this also. Believe in Her Teachings (as they are My teachings)”
Now do you get it?
So just do it already!
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=8385)Gottle of Geer[
I’m neither - I can’t choose either alternative, because the choice is unduly narrow.
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=8385)%between%Your statment reminds me of a certain Scripture passage …
So, are you still “sitting on the fence” now geez?
So what your telling me then geez, is that because we humans are weak and sin, that you refuse to believe in everything that Holy Mother Church teaches? Is that right?
Because if it is, see the Scripture passags above.
Wrong! Your a bit confused here geez. Let me repeat for you one more time. There Are No Grey Areas.
What you have mistakenly have tried to illustrate here is merely people clarifying what they could not see. The Truth was still (and always will be) the same and totally unalterable.
Now do you understand?
How do you know what God might or might not use to accomplish His will? My goodness geez, where ever do you keep coming up with these oddball statements of yours?
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, again!
Any good Moral Theologian will tell you that for the most part - VIRTUES ARE LEARNED. So yes, the CCC can be EXTREMELY helpful in developing the moral virtues, of which Prudence is one of them.
You must belong to a different Church than I belong to, and you must read a different Scripture than I do too.But a purely extrinsic approach - “Do this, or else”; “You aren’t a Catholic unless you believe this, this, this, this…” - which takes no account of the individuality of each human person as a unique object of God’s creative Love, is just not enough
Because BOTH of them have refuted the silly statements made above. Even though Christ was well aware that we will sin, that fact DID NOT stop Him from saying “Be perfect as the Father is perfect”. In translation geez, that means this:
“You know what the right thing to do is because I have taught you this, and my Church has taught you this also. Believe in Her Teachings (as they are My teachings)”
Now do you get it?
HUGE, HUGE copout for not believing in everything that Christ and His Church has authoritatively taught us. This is not MY approach geez, it is God’s plan that He wants us to believe EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches. No excuses. No whining.People are not machines - they are organisms, growing beings, beings who are meant to grow in wisdom and insight up into the fullness of Christ. I think your approach is too mechanical, and, legalistic
So just do it already!
Or fall, as the case may be …
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FiremanFrank
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edwinG[
Hello Lisa4Catholics,
Do you think the magesterium has more wisdom than the Holy Spirit? Why settle for less, Lisa. You deserve the best. Just believe, submit to Him and believe. Trust in His strength to keep you safe.
walk in love
edwinG](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=11164)](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=11164)So, you aren’t even Cahtholic Eddy?
Then why are you even on this thread to begin with?
FYI Eddy:
Because we Catholics DO believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit - is precisely the reason that we are called to be obedient to the Magistreium.
So the question to you is Eddy …
Why then aren’t you fully obedient to Jesus Christ and His Church?
Why shoot for 2nd place Eddy, when you can have the Gold!
(i.e. The “Gold” being His actual Precious Body and Blood, which only exists in the Catholic Church).
Go for the TRUE Gold Eddy, leave the shadows behind …
And go for the Gold !
edwinG[
Hello Lisa4Catholics,
Do you think the magesterium has more wisdom than the Holy Spirit? Why settle for less, Lisa. You deserve the best. Just believe, submit to Him and believe. Trust in His strength to keep you safe.
walk in love
edwinG](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=11164)](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=11164)So, you aren’t even Cahtholic Eddy?
Then why are you even on this thread to begin with?
FYI Eddy:
Because we Catholics DO believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit - is precisely the reason that we are called to be obedient to the Magistreium.
So the question to you is Eddy …
Why then aren’t you fully obedient to Jesus Christ and His Church?
Why shoot for 2nd place Eddy, when you can have the Gold!
(i.e. The “Gold” being His actual Precious Body and Blood, which only exists in the Catholic Church).
Go for the TRUE Gold Eddy, leave the shadows behind …
And go for the Gold !
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wcknight
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The Holy Spirit is where the Magesterium gets its wisdom EDWING
:bowdown2: :bowdown2:That’s exactly what Protestant don’t get… They somehow think by reading their Bible the Holy Spirit will magically talk directly to them. BUT they fail to see that the Holy Spirit works through the Catholic Church and less so through individuals.
They completely ignore the fact that Jesus says “whenever two or more are gather in my Name, there I am with them”. SO they sit in their rooms alone and make all sorts of interpretations and come out with 30,000 differnent opinions and interpretations of scriptures.
It’s no wonder the protestant churches are a mess, you can’t get even a half a dozen of them to agree. If you don’t like what the teach in one church, all you have to do is go down the street find someone who might agree with you.
IF the Holy Spirit were with them, they would ALL have the exact same teaching and interpretation. Afterall, why on earth would the Spirit tell one church one thing and another church something different… Duuuuuuhhhhhh :whacky:
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Gottle_of_Geer
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The Apostles constantly questioned - it makes no sense to demand (and it always is a demand, never a polite request ) an assent to the Church which is more rigorous than Christ Himself allowed to those who questioned Him.
A Church which insists on total, universal and unqualified assent to every last word uttered by her is not training disciples, but an army: and that is only one model for the Church, which is hardly ever used in the NT.BTW - the Church is not confined to the office-bearers in the Church: we are all of us the Church.
There is a big difference in tone and spirit between being authoritarian, and being authoritative: and a little courtesy and gentleness will do far more to win the hesitant than will ever be achieved by throwing the book at them. People do not join the CC in order to be stamped on by those whose love of wielding power over others exceeds their common sense or Christianity. IOW - it is possible to be gracious and to show what the right way to walk in is.
FWIW - Newman had to put up with the sort of people who thought that belief was a thing one could create by demanding it. Several of his letters are written to Catholics who had been stamped on in this fashion, and his indignation against such graceless behaviour is not concealed. Such authoritarianism may attract some - but it certainly repels others. There are enough tyrannies in the world already, without making the Church into one ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Lurker
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Right now… I’m somewhere in between. I want to be an obedient Catholic, but I still have some questions and concerns over some of the teachings of the Church. That said, I’m busy doing my best to research the teachings of the Church more fully in order to understand them and have been praying that I will grow in my understanding.
So, I guess I’m more of a heterodox who wants to be obedient and is working his way there.
So, I guess I’m more of a heterodox who wants to be obedient and is working his way there.
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Penny_Plain
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I am not a fully obedient Catholic by your definition, FF. I use birth control, and I think gays should be allowed to marry (civilly only, not in the church).
But I’m still Catholic. I still belong to your church. My disagreements with Catholic teaching are between me and God, and I will take my chances when I meet Him face to face.
I am Catholic. I am in your church. And I’m not leaving.
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Tom
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Since neither of your choices reflect current Church teachings, should we put you down for a “No”?
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Gottle of Geer] ## I’m neither - I can’t choose either alternative, because the choice is unduly narrow.##
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To ask “Are you a tax-dodger or a wife-beater ? Choose one or other”, is to ask a grossly unfair question: because it does not include the possibility that one has never done either. Is it “lukewarm” to protest that you’re honest & truthful ? Of course not - the question put is too narrow; it fails to include other possibilities that may be far more truthful answers.
So with my reply.Besides: the world is not black or white: so why must moral choices be ? ##
Quote: It’s fine for some things, but not for beings with a capacity for Christ, IOW, for living men. ##
FiremanFrank said:
There you go again, accusing people of being lukewarm. You stop beating your wife, I’ll stop being lukewarm.
One cannot treat human beings as one would treat inanimate or dead things. People are not gingerbread men - they are not made en masse like carburettors or kitchen knives: each one of us has an irreducible human dignity, because we are made as individuals in the image of Christ - which is not true of gingerbread men. Forgetting this, is quite compatible with being a believer. ##
There are no clear principles ? No grey areas either ?
If there are no grey areas, why was there a long & bitter controversy between the Jesuits & the Dominicans over the licitness of the retention by Catholic converts of certain features of Chinese religion ? It was not clear whether or not elements of ancestor worship could be retained or understood as purely civil (i.e. non-religious) practices: hence the dispute. This is as much a moral as a dogmatic question. In 1939, the Pope reversed the decision made in 1704; which alone would suffice to show that the matter was not easy to resolve.Why did St. Alphonsus Liguori have to spend so long vindicating his system of equiprobabilism against rigorists and probabilists ? St. Jean Vianney began as a rigorist - why did he adopt the approach of St. Alphonsus, if moral judgements are always so clear and so easy to apply ?
Why did the Abbe Gratry attack the use of the Greek and Latin Classics in schools, if the moral issues were so clear ? Given the impossibility of fitting some of them to anything resembling Christian morals, it’s unsurprising that he, like several early Fathers, attacked them: yet they continue to be read. ##
I don’t - and your own words show that moral judgements, far from being clear, may well not be: for what is the use in a truth one does not know to be true ? What is the use of a clear moral teaching that is not clearly known or taught by (say) the Pope ? None in either case. So either it is not possessed by the Church from her very beginning, but has to be discerned; or, the Church has this luminously clear teaching but is silent about it: and keeping silent, when there is a controversy which she can quieten by her teaching, is no behaviour for a Church. Since even Christ had to grow in wisdom and knowledge, the Church is unlikely to be spared having to do so.
Quote:The Catechism won’t solve cases of conscience - it’s not meant to
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Gottle_of_Geer
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…continued & ended]
If you want to bring “what God might do” into this exchange - God might be using us heretics to say a few things that need saying. ##
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And it is not a substitute for the virtue of prudence, any more than knowledge is, whether of dogma or of moral theology. No amount of knowledge of theology and doctrine can replace prudence, or make one more sensitive to the promptings of God through conscience than one is. So knowledge, is not enough.
FiremanFrank:
But a purely extrinsic approach - “Do this, or else”; “You aren’t a Catholic unless you believe this, this, this, this…” - which takes no account of the individuality of each human person as a unique object of God’s creative Love, is just not enough
FiremanFrank:
If law were enough, Christ would not have been incarnate. Moses and the Law would have sufficed for our salvation.
Your real argument is with St Paul - he is the one who is to blame for this “whining” about growth. The metaphors are mostly his - not mine.
BTW - Jeremiah 31.31-34 does not encourage an extrinsicist approach to God’s Will. ##
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So, I stand by what I said. ##
FiremanFrank:
Very well: it wasn’t meant to do so. It is no more designed for that, than a cookery book is designed to be a encyclopaedia of sub-atomic physics. If you want info on Heisenberg’s ideas, a book on how to make sauces is not the place to look. For moral theology, read Slater or von Haering or Grisez or some other such writer, not the CCC: the CCC is for doctrinal teaching - not for how to study moral theology. Using it for that, is like using Webster for dogmatics.
It is conceivable that, God being Almighty, a reader of the CCC might learn Mandarin Chinese from it: anything is conceivable, **if **one allows for the unusual - but one cannot be expected to allow for exceptional cases: only for what the book, as the thing it is, is likely to be useful for. And it is not designed to be a guide to anything but Church teaching. It’s not a Handbook To Absolutely Everything Catholic: it couldn’t be.If you want to bring “what God might do” into this exchange - God might be using us heretics to say a few things that need saying. ##
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And it is not a substitute for the virtue of prudence, any more than knowledge is, whether of dogma or of moral theology. No amount of knowledge of theology and doctrine can replace prudence, or make one more sensitive to the promptings of God through conscience than one is. So knowledge, is not enough.
I did say no substitute, and replace: a book is no more a replacement for virtuous acts, than knowing the details of the Filioque controversy is a substitute for loving God. People are Saints because they are in love with God & God with them - not because they are experts on St. Thomas. Learning, however great, is not charity. That was the point of that comment.
Quote:But a purely extrinsic approach - “Do this, or else”; “You aren’t a Catholic unless you believe this, this, this, this…” - which takes no account of the individuality of each human person as a unique object of God’s creative Love, is just not enough
Men are not machines - do you deny that ? Does a coffee-dispenser react in the same way as a human being when kicked ? Of course not. Men are living beings with souls: so they can’t be kicked & thumped & battered in the knowledge they will not react. Entities should be treated as the entities they are: which is why computers can be sold, and men can receive legacies. Making a will in favour of a coffee-cup or computer is not commonly deemed rational, no ?
Jesus Christ is the Wounded Healer - not Jesus the Mugger. “The bruised reed he shall not break, nor quench the smoking flax”. Far from kicking the stuffing out of us for failing to be instantly perfect, He is not unaware of of our weaknesses: He does not command as though ignorant of the difficulties of life, but as one who has first-hand experience of what human life is really like. The Church has not been crucified for us, or tasted death for us - He has done both. So He cannot be identified with the Church without qualification: there are differences. And there is no reason to suppose that every single act and word of every single churchman is a perfect reflection of the Mind of Christ. They have His authority - so do we all: but having it, is no guarantee of perfect righteousness, wisdom, or charity.If law were enough, Christ would not have been incarnate. Moses and the Law would have sufficed for our salvation.
Your real argument is with St Paul - he is the one who is to blame for this “whining” about growth. The metaphors are mostly his - not mine.
BTW - Jeremiah 31.31-34 does not encourage an extrinsicist approach to God’s Will. ##
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So, I stand by what I said. ##
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Trelow
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Gottle of Geer:
Full submission of the will to the Father is required.
Does that mean that you do not stay from the path? No. It only means that you don’t back talk and try to tell Holy Mother Chruch were the path is.
Either you are obedient or you are not. Obedience is black and white. If you disagree with the Church on ONE thing, then that is not obedience.
Full submission of the will to the Father is required.
Does that mean that you do not stay from the path? No. It only means that you don’t back talk and try to tell Holy Mother Chruch were the path is.
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surfinpure
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I agree completely. This thread isn’t about whether we miss the mark; it’s about whether we’re aiming at complete obedience to the laws of the Church. Either you agree with the entirety of Church Teaching or you don’t. That’s black and white.
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LSK
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I disagree with those who believe that moral choices are not black and white. I think those who believe that are mixing up the difficulties often associated with making the right choice with the morality of that choice.
Using myself as an example, I know that I made immoral choices based on the immoral lifestyle I was leading. I can give you all kinds of explanations for why I made those choices, but the bottom line is this: I sinned. No amount of explanation, excuse or debate will alter that fact.
It is simple, but not easy. Many times my choices were dictated by fear…self-centered fear. I was afraid I would lose something I had or not get something I wanted and so I made a choice based on that self-centered fear. That may mitigate the sin but it was still a sin.
That is what makes the martyrs so incredible as human beings. Faced with the choice of life or death they chose the MORAL, RIGHT THING TO SAY OR DO and did not factor in the consequences. They accepted the consequences as inevitable and so went to their deaths knowing they had made the right choice. That is amazing to me. I would like to think I would be that strong as person, that reliant upon Jesus, that trusting of the Holy Trinity. I would hope I would always do the right thing but I know from my past that I don’t…that does not mean I am not a faithful Catholic. It means I am obedient unles I sin at which point I reap the benefit of that action and I ask for forgiveness.
The world may not be black or white, but moral choices are…there is a wrong and a right. What is amazing is how many people chose RIGHT in the face of fear, temptation, threats of death or rape or mutilation, loss of money, property or prestige…I pray that I would be someone to stand up and do what is right but I have not always done so in the past, and so I cannot say for sure what I would do under intense pressure from evil outside forces.
I have never had to make a moral choice while watching a group of men rape my three year old daughter. I am in awe of those men and women who did make the right choice in the face of such evil and I absolutely understand those who caved in…
Using myself as an example, I know that I made immoral choices based on the immoral lifestyle I was leading. I can give you all kinds of explanations for why I made those choices, but the bottom line is this: I sinned. No amount of explanation, excuse or debate will alter that fact.
It is simple, but not easy. Many times my choices were dictated by fear…self-centered fear. I was afraid I would lose something I had or not get something I wanted and so I made a choice based on that self-centered fear. That may mitigate the sin but it was still a sin.
That is what makes the martyrs so incredible as human beings. Faced with the choice of life or death they chose the MORAL, RIGHT THING TO SAY OR DO and did not factor in the consequences. They accepted the consequences as inevitable and so went to their deaths knowing they had made the right choice. That is amazing to me. I would like to think I would be that strong as person, that reliant upon Jesus, that trusting of the Holy Trinity. I would hope I would always do the right thing but I know from my past that I don’t…that does not mean I am not a faithful Catholic. It means I am obedient unles I sin at which point I reap the benefit of that action and I ask for forgiveness.
The world may not be black or white, but moral choices are…there is a wrong and a right. What is amazing is how many people chose RIGHT in the face of fear, temptation, threats of death or rape or mutilation, loss of money, property or prestige…I pray that I would be someone to stand up and do what is right but I have not always done so in the past, and so I cannot say for sure what I would do under intense pressure from evil outside forces.
I have never had to make a moral choice while watching a group of men rape my three year old daughter. I am in awe of those men and women who did make the right choice in the face of such evil and I absolutely understand those who caved in…
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Trelow
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I concur.
There are no shadows when you are directly under the Son.
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cathlicnlovinit
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Maybe people are not understanding the use of the words or some thing. To think that all areas are gray isn’t that like relativism. I an orthodox in the sense that I submit to the teachings of the church. If the church says that it is wrong I don’t do it in defiance. Like the issue of sexual behavior, if the church says homosexuality is wrong, I should not practice it. If I am attempting to obstain and I slip up that is not defiance. That is a mistake. What make someone unorthodox is when they know what the religion they claim to belong to teaches but they do the opposite anyway. Like rainbox sash folks, those who accept abortion, etc. Jesus is love and about love but not tolerance of any and all things just because we are struggling.
I used to practice contraception when I was an uninformed Catholic. Once I studied what my faith really was about I immediately stopped using contraception and explored NFP. I submitted to the teaching of my church. To say well I disagree and will keep using is not giving assent of my will to that of Christ through the church. To do other wise would have been heterodox. In essence, in matters of Faith and Morals submitting to the Church is submitting to Christ.
We should have faith seeking understanding. We assent to the teaching then go back and learn why the Church teaches what she does. I just find it hard to believe that some people believe that you can’t take a hard line on somethings. (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) I admit not with all things in life but sometimes wrong is wrong and right is right.
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