Reality of hell

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We pray for “all souls” in the sense of each one, but not collectively to be saved. Romans 9:14-23 makes it clear that some are damned because God wishes to reveal his justice, not just his mercy. We must try to avoid sin at all costs. But remember God is merciful, please do
 
According to Aquinas, Augustine, and St. Paul, God desires all to be saved, but He recognizes the revelation of His glory (that is, His mercy AND His justice) as a greater good. I don’t mean to down play God’s mercy (which is SO vast), but punishment of evil men is a very great good. This should wake us up more
 
I want to push you on one point - I think it was you who had said - that the church in softening its narrative of hell that she has in fact done a very dangerous thing…or “progressive” or "liberal: ideas on a non-literal hell is very dangerous…I don’t get the senst that you made your argument clear yet…

Cheers

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
Whether its physical fire, or spiritual fire, its still very painful
 
aquinasg said:
We pray for “all souls” in the sense of each one, but not collectively to be saved. Romans 9:14-23 makes it clear that some are damned because God wishes to reveal his justice, not just his mercy. We must try to avoid sin at all costs. But remember God is merciful, please do
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Just a thought! Just because St. Paul says that some are damned should not prevent us from praying collectively for those in hell…we can in fact change God’s mind! I can’t think of the example…but it had to do with Abraham or Moses, or maybe Jacob…where they prayed to God, if there were so many people in the town would God destroy it…I think its Abraham and he changed God’s mind…

We are God’s children, we have a lot of power to talk to God to change his mind and to “negotiate” outcomes…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster…
 
Hell is real. The best trap from the devil to catch us is making us believe there is no hell. This is why we have the sacrament of confession and why our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross. Our Lord wanted to give us the chance to be saved, by living life as He did.
 
SIMPLE SOUL - thank you for anchoring this conversation by reminding of us Our Lady’s prayer - “lead all souls to heaven”…I missed that on the first reading…sheesh 🙂

Bruce Ferguson
Tricksger
 
Maybe God would change his mind, that’s true trickster. But my too quotes from my first post seem to say otherwise. How else can I interprete them? I want to see them different, and appreciate God’s mercy better
 
jsaldar said:
Hell is real. The best trap from the devil to catch us is making us believe there is no hell. This is why we have the sacrament of confession and why our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross. Our Lord wanted to give us the chance to be saved, by living life as He did.
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I believe that this is your rationale for stating that our church’s softening of the concept of hell is dangerous.

I think your logic is solid! Good stuff…

In reflecting upon this you and I don’t disagree we just have some different takes on the issue…I agree that the best tool Satan can use is to deconstruct the notion of hell (an eternal separation from God and a finality that was never meant to be the human experience - we also acknoweldge that hell originally was not meant for human beings but for those angels who rebelled against the Creator and joined Satan) and whether its Satan or one of those “bad angels”

You and I are Catholic, that alone creates common ground…we agree on the existence of hell…separation from God eternally is the more scary thought or reality than fire (internal and external suffering) or whatever that medieval story goes … so yes to argue that hell is real, that the fire is real…is a very important message to continue to share and think about…however, my mesage too should be a part of the Catholic message which is “as bad and tormenting hell may be” the real hell is loosing Gods love and the love of our Lord and the infusion of the Holy Spirit in our lives on a daily basis…we need to celebrate the fact to that you and I have recieved our sacraments…our dialogue is a prayer (a reflection prayer) that is respectful of each other and a prayer not aimed at wining or loosing but for both of us to grow in spirit…unless we sin against the Holy Spirit we will do all right in the big picture barring our time in purgatory.

Thank you so much Aquinas for posting this…and I think I will leave things at this point as I need to cook supper and all those wonderful blessings of Our Lord in our daily lives…

Cheerz

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transformation)
 
In response to the original post: Yes it is unfortunate that so many Catholics nowadays do not believe in the reality of hell or that people can go there because of adhering to false religions/beliefs.
aquinasg said:
We pray for “all souls” in the sense of each one, but not collectively to be saved. Romans 9:14-23 makes it clear that some are damned because God wishes to reveal his justice, not just his mercy. We must try to avoid sin at all costs. But remember God is merciful, please do
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Some people are certainly damned and in their damnation God reveals his justice BUT God desires the salvation of all men and does not cause a soul to be damned, each soul is damned on his own free will.
aquinasg said:
According to Aquinas, Augustine, and St. Paul, God desires all to be saved, but He recognizes the revelation of His glory (that is, His mercy AND His justice) as a greater good. I don’t mean to down play God’s mercy (which is SO vast), but punishment of evil men is a very great good. This should wake us up more
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There are other permissible views than the St. Augustine/Thomas view involving predestination and grace. God does not damn individuals because he sees his own justice as more important than the salvation of souls, God desires the salvation of all men and those who refuse are damned, revealing God’s justice as God wills.
aquinasg said:
Maybe God would change his mind, that’s true trickster. But my too quotes from my first post seem to say otherwise. How else can I interprete them? I want to see them different, and appreciate God’s mercy better
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  1. God cannot change his mind, he stands outside of time so this would not make sense, it would seem as if God could make a mistake if he could truly change his mind. When Scripture speaks of this, we are not to understand it as if God was literally changing his mind
  2. No one can be released from hell, once the sentence of damnation is pronounced, it is official for eternity. God knows who will end up in heaven and who in hell and this knowledge is certain and unchangeable it is only changeable from our standpoint.
  3. I think the best way to appreciate God’s mercy is to remember he desires the salvation of all and for this reason Christ died on the Cross, but some refuse by unrepentant mortal sin to go to hell
 
“There are other permissible views than the St. Augustine/Thomas view involving predestination and grace. God does not damn individuals because he sees his own justice as more important than the salvation of souls, God desires the salvation of all men and those who refuse are damned, revealing God’s justice as God wills.”

I wish that were true. It would give me peace. But what about Romans 9:13-23??
 
Hi Tom, a bit of clarification on this point

I was suggesting to Aquinas that we can pray collectively that humans don’t go to hell…Our Lady says that in her prayer “lead all souls to heaven”…but your right…the choice is remarkably ours… I agree with you thought that once people have chosen hell then your three points below are reflective of my thinking too…
  1. God cannot change his mind, he stands outside of time so this would not make sense, it would seem as if God could make a mistake if he could truly change his mind. When Scripture speaks of this, we are not to understand it as if God was literally changing his mind
  2. No one can be released from hell, once the sentence of damnation is pronounced, it is official for eternity. God knows who will end up in heaven and who in hell and this knowledge is certain and unchangeable it is only changeable from our standpoint.
  3. I think the best way to appreciate God’s mercy is to remember he desires the salvation of all and for this reason Christ died on the Cross, but some refuse by unrepentant mortal sin to go to hell
I was thinking about the Hebrew Bible story of Abraham or Isaac or somebody who prevented town from being destroyed by the “wrath of God” where Isacc or Abraham negotiated with the Creator saying if there wer 100 , 50, 25, one, would God spare the town…and finally God agree d with Abraham (or Isaac?) that he would spare the town…so prayers do get answered and we musht not limit our beliefs in God based on an understanding of a church teaching as opposed to the reality of a church teaching…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transformation)
 
Aquinas, I am relatively new to the Catholic Answer website…and I have lost threads that I was working on…how do we find those threads once they are off the home page? Thanks…

Bruce
 
This is my first day here. Sorry, I don’t know

On this topic: paragraph 1035 of the Catechism says “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death…” But it also says hell is a state, without saying it is a place. Therefore, by saying this state exists (for humans, since only they die, not angels), the conclusion MUST be that there are or will be people in hell. Case closed, i think.

I hope someone can help me understand St. Paul in a Molinist way!!
 
aquinasg said:
This is my first day here. Sorry, I don’t know

On this topic: paragraph 1035 of the Catechism says “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death…” But it also says hell is a state, without saying it is a place. Therefore, by saying this state exists (for humans, since only they die, not angels), the conclusion MUST be that there are or will be people in hell. Case closed, i think.
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Aquinas, I don’t think anyone on this thread is denying the existence of hell…thought that was established ions ago…“a state” can also refer to a “state of being” which is kind of my take, that state of being is forever knowing that you have been separated from God…scriptures (Isaiah) or something was talking about hell being a punishment for angels…(or maybe it was revelation…will have to look that up)…We agree that there are people in hell…if that is your central point then I don’t see anyone disagreeing with you…you and I went on about whether or not their was fire and/or the stereotypical images of hell were real…

Back to you my friend…

Bruce Ferguson
Tickster
 
A few peope earlier on this thread said that hell may be empty. That was directed at them.
 
Ah my mistake,my apologies, but AquinasG and Trickster agree that there is a hell and there are people who choose hell rathern than accept the love of our Creator…🙂 and yes there are people in hell…we just don’t know God’s final decison on individuals…

Bruce
 
trickster said:
Aquinas, I don’t think anyone on this thread is denying the existence of hell…thought that was established ions ago…“a state” can also refer to a “state of being” which is kind of my take, that state of being is forever knowing that you have been separated from God…scriptures (Isaiah) or something was talking about hell being a punishment for angels…(or maybe it was revelation…will have to look that up)…We agree that there are people in hell…if that is your central point then I don’t see anyone disagreeing with you…you and I went on about whether or not their was fire and/or the stereotypical images of hell were real…

Back to you my friend…

Bruce Ferguson
Tickster
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But most people water down what ‘being seperated from God’ actually is. They give the impression it’s just being in a state of being where you are sad. When we take into consideration of God’s love for us in every single aspect of our life, we relise that without God’s love, it would be absolute complete torture. Every time we commit a mortal sin, the just punishment from God is being thrown into Hell for all of eternity, but because of his Supreme Love for us, we can be forgiven and we still live today. We are alive because the Holy Spirit is inside of us and wants us to be alive.
 
PiousTemplar said:
But most people water down what ‘being seperated from God’ actually is. They give the impression it’s just being in a state of being where you are sad. When we take into consideration of God’s love for us in every single aspect of our life, we relise that without God’s love, it would be absolute complete torture. Every time we commit a mortal sin, the just punishment from God is being thrown into Hell for all of eternity, but because of his Supreme Love for us, we can be forgiven and we still live today. We are alive because the Holy Spirit is inside of us and wants us to be alive.
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Pious Templar - Well Said! Couldn’t agree with you more…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Word For Transformation)
 
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