Reality of hell

[daCatholicGuard]

"…based on the ideas of saints and/or interpretations of what Our Lady may have said…I did not hear Our Lady or nor did I see what the saints have seen, so I don’t disrespect or minimize what they are saying…those messages are honoured, for sure.

However, saints and people (including the Fatima children and Lucy) are finite in their understanding of what they see…they can only explain things in the context of thier soci-cultural and religious context…and at the end of the day only I have to explain to the Creator the choices I have made and how I have chosen to believe things…that responsibility I will take for myself…it is good to wrestle with concepts, not to accept things in blind faith but in a humility that is a prayer for growth…
Trickster

Hello Bruce,

While you do clarify your remarks by saying you respect and honor these revelations; you still should not say things such as “what Our Lady may have said” when you are discussing a Church approved Apparition. We cannot approach God with an empirical mindset; i.e., I didn’t hear it or see it; therefore it must not be true or in the least, I am justified in having doubts if it is true.

The Fatima children were indeed poor, uneducated peasants; however, if something is revealed to us by God, (through the auspices of Our Lady or another saint or angel), you can wholeheartedly believe and accept everything that these special chosen people on earth relate to us, (once it has been approved by Holy Mother Church ), as it was revealed to them because God transcends all limitations- human, educational, socio-economic, etc. To believe otherwise is to short-change God.

Hello all,

We must also bear in mind what our dear Lord told us while He was with us, “seek ye the narrow gate; for the road to eternal life is narrow and rocky and few are they who find it.” Our Lady at Fatima also told us that souls fall into hell like snowflakes. These iron-clad statements more than imply that hell is crowded. Also, recall the words of St. Paul that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

God is infinite in His mercy; however, getting into Heaven is not as easy as many of the Modernists will have you believe- and those poor souls will pay dearly for the souls they have corrupted with their “easy breezy” theology.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight2:

 

[daCatholicGuard]

“…We must also bear in mind what our dear Lord told us while He was with us…”

Hello all,

In re-reading this post later; I realized I made a glaring error, (in a sense). When I said, “When Jesus was with us,” I was referring to when He was on earth with a human coil. I just wanted to clarify this because He is always with us.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight2:

 

[Jesu_XPI_Passio]

Fantastic username. You may find this interesting: forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=466

Thank you so much for the compliment! I have a special devotion to The Passion & will most probably become a Passionist Nun (though there are other Orders linked to The Passion that I really like), I’ve heard God calling & tugging at my soul since I was a little girl…
Thank you for the link! I’ll check it out! (I pushed the “quote” button but it didn’t give me a choice in which part I wanted to quote- is there a way to do that? Sorry, I’m brand-new here here, & I may be intelligent in biological/medical ways, but computer ways- forget it!

In Jesu XPI Passio

S. Gemmae Galgani, ora pro nobis
St. Gemma Galgani, pray for us

 

[TrueLight]

I was thinking about the Hebrew Bible story of Abraham or Isaac or somebody who prevented town from being destroyed by the “wrath of God” where Isacc or Abraham negotiated with the Creator saying if there wer 100 , 50, 25, one, would God spare the town…and finally God agree d with Abraham (or Isaac?) that he would spare the town…so prayers do get answered and we musht not limit our beliefs in God based on an understanding of a church teaching as opposed to the reality of a church teaching…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transformation)

You’re referring to Abraham pleading for Sodom and Gomorrah. But God knew Abraham was going to plead and he wants us to pray because it actually builds up our faith in him, when we interced for others.

Genesis 18:

16When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

20Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.e 23Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not sparef the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judgeg of all the earth do right?”

26The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

 

[Jesu_XPI_Passio]

I guess the most important part is that we do not end up there, so that we can be with God & the Saints for eternity.

In Jesu XPI Passio

 

[trickster]

Hi DaCatholicGuard…I appreciate your point of view…you are right in the sense that the Church has absolutely vented the Fatima appearances…what I was addressing are the issues of Catholics using what saints have said in their vision…to argue their particular theological point.

However, I think the Church will aslo tell you that I am not quite out of line for saying that there is a level of subjectivity in relating a vision…and that is even true with those three beautiful children many years ago in Fatima…even Sr. Lucy could only reflect on her visons of many years ago the way you and I remember our experiences of 20-30 years ago…

I do believe the Fatima visions happened more than once, so the patterns of what was said I think is more of an objective process and therefore safe to trust…plus the church said it was ok to trust too…do you know if Sr. Lucia had more visions after 1917, it seem that she did…but I am not sure on that point…

Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts on this.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transfomration)

 

[trickster]

True Light, thanks for that scripture quotation…I hope I did not confirm Protestant critisism of Catholics not knowing the scriptures…frig I know the story, just can’t remember all the details

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol for Transformation)

 

[TomD123]

I wish that were true. It would give me peace. But what about Romans 9:13-23??

It is permisable to hold the Aquinas view but I think there are good reasons that we can move away from this. Here are some points I think are important

1. The Church does not oblige us to hold this view, Molinism is acceptable and has been endorsed by multiple Saints (St. Francis, St. Alphonsus Ligori believed in something similar)
2. The Church does not see St. Paul’s quote to infallibly affirm Aquinas/Augustine, therefore we should not either
3. The quote in Roman’s can be interpreted as an emphasis to God’s work in the salvation of man, not necessarily 100% literal, for example when St. Paul talks about God “Hardening his heart” we actually cannot interpret this as literal, the Church definitively tells us that we cannot accept God actively predestining sin
4. Other Scripture passages seem to indicate for Molinism completely: talking about God’s desire to save all for example or the story of the King and his wedding banquet
5. Private revelation (e.g. Divine Mercy) Clearly point towards God giving us a free chance and it being up to us to accept his invitation or not
6. Logically, Molinism makes more sense (at least to me) because God is still in charge and the cause of our salvation, he desires all to be saved, he is still glorified for his Justice and Mercy, men are free and grace is not irresistible or intrinsically efficacious.

Hi Tom, a bit of clarification on this point

Ok that makes sense thanks for the clarification

 

[aquinasg]

I wish that were true Tom, but these verses still scare and depress me:

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–

 

[aquinasg]

If someone can help me interprete this in a Molinist sense, I would be so happy. Otherwise, God prefers His glory to people’s salvation, which seems unloving

 

[TomD123]

The basic way I see this verse is that God freely chooses to treat us however he wants but has our best interest at heart.

Here are some quotes:

“God does not have to wait, as we do, to see which one will turn out good and which one will turn out bad. He knew this in advance and decided accordingly.”

(St. John Chrysostom, Homilies in Romans 16; NPNF 1 11:464-65)

“So also he chose Jacob over Esau . . . Why be surprised then, if God does the same thing nowadays,** by accepting those of you who believe** and rejecting those who have not seen the light?”

(Theodoret of Cyr, Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans, IER, Migne PG 82 col. 153)

“Paul says this in order not to do away with free will but rather to show to what extent we ought to obey God. We should be as little inclined to call god to account as a piece of clay is.”

(St. John Chrysostom, ibid., NPNF 1 11:467)

“God does nothing at random or by mere chance, even if you do not understand the secrets of his wisdom. You allow the potter to make different things from the same lump of clay and find no fault with him, but you do not grant the same freedom to God! . . . How monstrous this is. It is not on the potter that the honor or dishonor of the vessel depends but rather on those who make use of it. it is the same way with people - it all depends on their own free choice.”

(St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 16.46; NPNF 1 11:468)

"Those who are called vessels for menial use have chosen this path for themselves . . . This is clear from what Paul says to timothy: ‘If anyone purifies himself from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work.’ "

(Theodoret of Cyr, Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans, IER, Migne PG 82 col. 157; citation of 2 Tim. 2:21)

And I think if St. Alphonsus Ligouri believed in something similar to Molinism (not exactly the same though), its good enough for me.
If Molinism was contrary to Scripture, it would have been condemned by the Church, same with Thomism. Neither scripture or tradition indicate either in favor of the other, otherwise, the Popes would have settled the matter when asked in the early 1600s.

ALSO, two quotes from Jesus and St. Faustina’s conversations

“The loss of each soul plunges Me into mortal sadness. You always console Me when you pray for sinners. The prayer most pleasing to Me is the prayer for the conversion of sinners. Know, My daughter, that this prayer is always heard and answered.” (1397)

“I heard a voice in my soul: “Do not fear, My little child, you are not alone. Fight bravely, because My arm is supporting you; fight for the salvation of souls, exhorting them to trust in My mercy, as that is your task in this life and in the life to come.” After these words, I received a deeper understanding of divine mercy. Only that soul who wants [to be damned] will be damned, for God condemns no one.” (1452)

 

[daCatholicGuard]

Hi DaCatholicGuard…I appreciate your point of view…you are right in the sense that the Church has absolutely vented the Fatima appearances…what I was addressing are the issues of Catholics using what saints have said in their vision…to argue their particular theological point.

However, I think the Church will aslo tell you that I am not quite out of line for saying that there is a level of subjectivity in relating a vision…and that is even true with those three beautiful children many years ago in Fatima…even Sr. Lucy could only reflect on her visons of many years ago the way you and I remember our experiences of 20-30 years ago…

I do believe the Fatima visions happened more than once, so the patterns of what was said I think is more of an objective process and therefore safe to trust…plus the church said it was ok to trust too…do you know if Sr. Lucia had more visions after 1917, it seem that she did…but I am not sure on that point…

Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts on this.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Word for Transfomration)

Hello Bruce,

Do you really believe that recalling visitations from the Mother of God is on the same plain as you and I recalling our summer vacation from 30 years ago? I would like to think that if God sent His mother to either one of us; the details of that visitation would be etched in granite for the balance of our lives, (by God’s Grace alone), I believe they would be because God does not do anything half-way. Again, I think you are putting God and His Mother on our level and you just can’t look at things that way.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight2: