Really curious.

[twiztedseraph]

Hey there my brother Catholics! Greetings to the members of the ancient Orthodox Churches, to our seperated brethren in the various protestant communities. And finally all you sons of Joseph, the “latter day saints.” And to the members of this forum of various faiths.

This thread (in my mind atleast) is intended for all those Mormon doctrines and quotes in the book of mormon that just don’t make sense (to the non-mormon) atleast.

So heres a few, 1Is there an actual reasonable explanation for the “bumblebees” talked about in the book of Mormon?
2What’s up with the word of wisdom? I have it from a source that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries enjoyed tobacco and caffeine and alcohol. What changed?
3God the Father physically made love to the virgin mary?
4God lives near the star kolob or some such nonsense (not to be offensice I call it non-sense while reading Jack T Chick).

Thats all for now, grace and peace in abundance on you fine people.

 

[flameburns623]

twiztedseraph:

Hey there my brother Catholics! Greetings to the members of the ancient Orthodox Churches, to our seperated brethren in the various protestant communities. And finally all you sons of Joseph, the “latter day saints.” And to the members of this forum of various faiths.

This thread (in my mind atleast) is intended for all those Mormon doctrines and quotes in the book of mormon that just don’t make sense (to the non-mormon) atleast.

I’m a former Mormon turned Anglican but your questions are such slow pitches I had to take a swing.

1 Is there an actual reasonable explanation for the “bumblebees” talked about in the book of Mormon?

Yep. The answer is that there aren’t any ‘bumblebees’ mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Easy out of the park. d

2 What’s up with the word of wisdom? I have it from a source that Joseph Smith and his contemporaries enjoyed tobacco and caffeine and alcohol. What changed?

The Word of Wisdom was originally given by way of ‘advice’ and not a commandment. Read it for yourself and you’ll see. It became a commandment by revelation of later LDS Prophets, primarily in the early 1900’s.

3God the Father physically made love to the virgin mary?

No. One of the LDS Prophets speculated about this to some extent but didn’t say that the Heavenly Father ‘made love to’ the Virgin Mary. Since God the Father is a personage of flesh-and-blood, making love to the Virgin Mary would make her–no longer a virgin, unless I misunderstood something in biology class.

4God lives near the star kolob or some such nonsense (not to be offensice I call it non-sense while reading Jack T Chick).

When you consider that Jack Chick lives somewhere rather more Lunar:whacky: , the Planet Kolob seems like a better option, don’t you think?

 

[Casen]

Are we talking about real LDS doctrine or are we twisting, mischaracterizing and distorting the doctrine for the sole purpose of making it appear absurd?

1 – Regarding Bees in the Book of Mormon as mentioned in Ether 2:3 you should note that bees are only mentioned in the Old World Jaredite setting, never in connection with the new World, so we can pretty much end the argument there if we all want to agree that Bees were first introduced by Europeans. However, some scholars have noted that there are references to honey bees in ancient times in the Maya region and they occur in pre-Spanish ritual contexts so perhaps they were indeed here and maybe the Jaredites even brought them here, but we may never know. Either way, it doesn’t matter much since the Book of Mormon doesn’t say they were in the New World. Straw man number one down.

2 – Word of wisdom – D&C Section 89 was originally given as “good advice”, not as a commandment and says so in the revelation, “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom” and church history shows the saints were slow to embrace it, for understandable reasons! Even today there are many good members that violate the WoW in some fashion. My own grandfather has been an active member all his life but was into his late 40s before giving up his morning coffee and evening glass of wine. It wasn’t made a requirement for temple attendance until Heber J. Grant, seventh president of the church who noted that the members had been given sufficient time to embrace it.

3 – Regarding the idea that God had sex with the virgin Mary, I have heard this accusation by anti-Mormons occasionally and believe they love to repeat it for it’s shock value, but I’ve never heard it taught by any church leader my whole life. In fact, as a young missionary I remember a Q&A session we had with an LDS apostle, Elder Richard G. Scott, where one missionary asked about this very topic and the apostle said he personally didn’t believe it and in any case it wasn’t church doctrine.

4 – Regarding the Kolob “nonsense”. This is in reference to the term Kolob which is used in Abraham 3:9 of the Pearl of Great Price which simply indicates that there is a major star named Kolob near the throne of God. It does not say God’s throne is on a planet. Kolob and planets are not an important part of LDS theology. Also, some have suggested the whole chapter is allegorical considering that after it describes all the stars, Kolob being the brightest, is goes on compare them to spirits, stating that God is the greatest. So Kolob, being the brightest star is a symbol for God, who is the greatest.

In summary, the previous post is a great example of taking the doctrine of another faith and attempting to sensationalize it into something provocative or shocking in order to tear it down. But hey, I suppose if you end your post with a nice salutation it’s just fine…

Grace and peace in abundance!

 

[Casen]

Oops, I was too slow and flameburns beat me to it!

 

[twiztedseraph]

Cool thanks, sorry but I did read parts of the book of Mormon and it does say stuff about the bee, so yeah I must’ve got it confused looks sheepish. But thank you for your answers, heres a few more questions.

1. Not to knock the Magic Underwear or Sacred Undergarments, but whats with it?
2. What about those historical inaccuracies? You know big battles yet no armour or weapons. I asked a mormon missionary once and he said there was proof I am curious to what proof it is.

Much thanks. SOrry bout the Kolob thing but yeah sometimes Jack Chick can be a little confusing he mixes so many half truths. Except on Catholicism, on that we can all just laugh at his tracts.

Grace and Peace

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

Jack Chick reminds me of that book The DaVinci Code.

Sprinkle in just enough truth to make the B.S. plauseable and you can sell Frigidares in Finland.

God Bless.

 

[BJRumph]

Really, two mostly pro-lds posts in one day…

I shouldn’t think that the issue of the Temple garments of the lds should be so confusing to a catholic; afterall, the various orders have utilized such things throughout its long history. The one example that I can think of off the top of my head would be the garments worn by the Templars as a matter of obligation to their order.

I could be wrong, but from what I have read about scapulars, they developed from undergarments worn by oblates or whatever.

Really see no reason to question this particular subject from a catholic pov.

 

[iwonder]

BJRumph:

Really, two mostly pro-lds posts in one day…

I shouldn’t think that the issue of the Temple garments of the lds should be so confusing to a catholic; afterall, the various orders have utilized such things throughout its long history. The one example that I can think of off the top of my head would be the garments worn by the Templars as a matter of obligation to their order.

I could be wrong, but from what I have read about scapulars, they developed from undergarments worn by oblates or whatever.

Really see no reason to question this particular subject from a catholic pov.

Correct. I don’t see a problem with undergarments. And it is not unusual for Catholic religious orders to have such thing. as a matter of fact, every pice of clothing on a priest has a sacred and ritual purpose- stole, alb, whatever.
Why argue over the clothing? What’s important is the person wearing it.

 

[iwonder]

Jo's_Dad:

Jack Chick reminds me of that book The DaVinci Code.

Sprinkle in just enough truth to make the B.S. plauseable and you can sell Frigidares in Finland.

God Bless.

I believe the Finns do use refrigerators.

 

[Casen]

RE: What about those historical inaccuracies? You know big battles yet no armour or weapons. I asked a mormon missionary once and he said there was proof I am curious to what proof it is.

Of course you know that the fact that something has not been found yet is not proof it doesn’t exist. Anyway, we’ve discussed evidences of the BoM on other threads and here’s a link to some interesting items:

jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

 

[Jerusha]

This thread, if you are curious:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=58782

The BOM was written with some strong biases from the time, particularly racist ones. Speaking as a Catholic, with the advantage of Indian oral history and further research, I firmly believe that there is evidence for the basic BOM story. Recent Mormon apologists have been dwelling on meso-American limited geography theory. However, they need to return to the Great Lakes and Eastern coast for LGT. I think since their run-in with the Nazis during WWII, they have been phobic about another explanation. Of course, the Nazis gave it their own racist slant. The whole thing needs a radical re-interpretation.

I suspect they are working on it now-- Simon Southerton’s recent book pretty well squashed the belief that all Indians are “Lamanites”-- or degenerate Jews.

I know the “BlackRobes” (Jesuits) made some serious mistaken assumptions with some tribes in that area.

My— we have really settled down, now, haven’t we?

 

[Casen]

I haven’t found any racial views advocated in the Book of Mormon.

 

[Jerusha]

AAAH---- whatever — “racial”— was that a typo?

 

[Casen]

Sorry, I ment to say “racist”.

Some have suggested the Book of Mormon is racist towards the American Indians by citing a few select verses yet neglecting the message of the book a a whole. In fact, the book is an outreach to them: Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.

 

[Jerusha]

I’m sure that part of the original intent was to prove that Indians are human. However, the application fell far short of the goal. Way too many Mormons subscribe to a way of thinking that is just a tad short of Naziism. A peculiar form of anti-Semitism.

I honor the analogy, however. Especially given that both Indians and Jews have suffered from genocide.

 

[flameburns623]

twiztedseraph:

Cool thanks, sorry but I did read parts of the book of Mormon and it does say stuff about the bee, so yeah I must’ve got it confused looks sheepish. But thank you for your answers, heres a few more questions.

You specifically asked about ‘bumblebees’. Never mentioned in the Book of Mormon. So far as ‘honeybees’ go–various types of bees or bee-like wasps are indigenous to the American continent. Some even make small quantities of honey. See Casen’s response for more details.

1. Not to knock the Magic Underwear or Sacred Undergarments, but whats with it?

Not to knock the Magic Brown Scapular–but what’s with it? Or in other words–can you not phrase your questions a tad more respectfully if you wish to be taken seriously?

1. What about those historical inaccuracies? You know big battles yet no armour or weapons. I asked a mormon missionary once and he said there was proof I am curious to what proof it is.

Lots of big battles happened upon the American continent. Some even included primitive armor. Of course, no one thus far has proven that any of these battles took place between ‘Lamanite’ peoples and ‘Nephite’ peoples. The typical LDS missionary is about 20 years old, has been reared in his own faith, and while he or she can wax eloquent about everything they think they know–they really haven’t looked very hard at the evidence for the Book of Mormon, outside of what they have seen in Mormon apologetic writings. Which makes the average 20-year-old Mormon missionary–pretty much like the average 20-year-old anybody.

Much thanks. SOrry bout the Kolob thing but yeah sometimes Jack Chick can be a little confusing he mixes so many half truths. Except on Catholicism, on that we can all just laugh at his tracts.

Grace and Peace

If Jack Chick had stuck to ‘easy’believism’ he would have fallen down Alice-in Wonderland’s famous bunny-hole a long time ago.

Come to think of it, mebbe he did. :whacky:

 

[Casen]

RE: Way too many Mormons subscribe to a way of thinking that is just a tad short of Naziism. A peculiar form of anti-Semitism.

Jerusha,
Whenever anyone mentions “Nazism” in any thread anywhere on the internet I get nervous since almost all Nazi comparisons are inappropriate. And anti-Semitism??!! How so?

I think if you’re going to make such serious accusations you’d better back them up with some documentation or at least examples. Personally I’ve seen just the opposite in the LDS church, including generous BYU scholarships to Native Americans. I have a roommate at BYU who was Navaho and the recipient of one of those scholarships. Also, I’ve had a few friends who served service missions on reservations who developed a strong bond with the people. I think the church has made sincere efforts to help the American Indian, not always successful but always well intentioned. Our doctrine teaches us that we are all God’s children and any racism that exists within the church, however rare, is in spite of the theology, not because or it.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Do any mormons here have corrections for the Catholic Answers tracts on LDS? Just wondering, thanks for all the great replies, sorry bout the Magic Underwear thing I wrote that at midnight and it was the name by which I was first introduced to the Sacred Undergarments. Also apparently Bob Larson (aka the Exorcist) exorcised an Australian Journalist who was studying many religions including mormonism. He exorcised this man for having worn the Undergarments, saying a curse or what not came with it. Your opinions please. (Nothing in this post is meant to be disrespectful, your patience however is appreciated)

 

[Jerusha]

Personally I’ve seen just the opposite in the LDS church, including generous BYU scholarships to Native Americans. I have a roommate at BYU who was Navaho and the recipient of one of those scholarships. Also, I’ve had a few friends who served service missions on reservations who developed a strong bond with the people. I think the church has made sincere efforts to help the American Indian, not always successful but always well intentioned.

The racism is in thinking that they are God’s gift to the Native American, and that any American Indian who does not accept their gospel is a depraved savage.

I have a roommate at BYU who was Navaho and the recipient of one of those scholarships.

I am sure he was Mormon. If he weren’t, he would have been made very uncomfortable.

The racism is in thinking that they can “whiten” the race through intemarriage, through social pressures. Don’t tell me that it doesn’t still exist in Mormon culture-- even though they have abandoned it in their official teachings.

The ultimate goal is conversion with anyone, but Native Americans, more so.

Can you deny the adoption and fosterage programs, designed to undermine NativeAmerican culture?

If that is not racism, I don’t know what is. The ultimate goal is assimilation and whitening of the race.

 

[Jerusha]

There is very little respect for what is left of the cultures.