Really having issues with this...do Protestants go to hell..Catholic view on this?

[Confiteor_Deo]

Protestants tend to be very good at serving God though.

It doesn’t matter how many good works they do if they are guilty of a single mortal sin or are culpably ignorant. One of God’s precepts is to be in His Church. Imagine how difficult it would be to get to Heaven without Penance, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, true catechesis, and the Sacrifice of the Mass. Catholics still struggle to get to Heaven even with all of this. The Protestants are in a very sad situation.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I know that baptism makes us members of the Church. Note the use of the word “alone” in my post above. See Vatican II, Unitatis Redintegratio, no. 3 on this point.

To be clear, I do not say that the baptism of heretics is invalid, but that if having valid baptism were alone generally sufficient for our salvation, then the Lord would not have provided a Church with six other sacraments and other means of sanctification.

I agree, but the statement was that “Baptism alone does not make us members of the Church”, which in fact, it does.

There are cases where it is sufficient for salvation, but I think those would be exceptions, such as mental incapacity, death shortly after baptism, etc.

I think the notion of “saved” presented here is extremely truncated - say a prayer and you are good to go. You are right, there would be no need for all that Jesus created for our journey.

 

[guanophore]

True, but who is “us”? I think it’s referring generally to those baptized in the Catholic Church. What do you make of St. Gregory the Great on this point, Denz. 249?

The Church accepts all Trinitarian baptisms as fully sufficient, so long as the person baptizing intends to do what the Church does (even if done by a non-believer).

The difference with us and the OSAS is that we see this as an initiation, and OSAS see the salvation prayer as the end. It is such a huge gap from that to what the Apostles taught they would be tearing their clothes to hear it.

 

[anon67074017]

It doesn’t matter how many good works they do if they are guilty of a single mortal sin or are culpably ignorant. One of God’s precepts is to be in His Church. Imagine how difficult it would be to get to Heaven without Penance, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, true catechesis, and the Sacrifice of the Mass. Catholics still struggle to get to Heaven even with all of this. The Protestants are in a very sad situation.

Many Protestants genuinely repent when they commit a sin. They also think that the Catholic Church misinterprets Christianity through no fault of their own.

 

[Gorgias]

People usually disagree with me, so I’m used to it.

We may think a Protestant is worthy of Heaven, but God may very well know otherwise since only He can see the true state of their soul.

Yes, only God judges us; we cannot judge.

I believe it is rare for an adult Protestant to go to Heaven.

That’s all well and good, but is that what the Church professes? :nope:

It is quite difficult to be inculpably ignorant

On what basis do you make that assertion?

and innocent of all mortal sin as a Protestant

Since mortal sin requires full knowledge and deliberate consent, it doesn’t seem ‘difficult’ for those who – ostensibly – don’t have full knowledge. Perhaps you might explain your perspective?

, especially when they lack the Sacraments.

Not sure where you’re coming from. After all, those who die with only venial sin on their souls attain to heaven.

It happens, but it isn’t common.

Again, let’s see where you’re getting this. Does the Church teach on how ‘common’ this might be? Or how ‘uncommon’?

 

[fhansen]

True, but who is “us”? I think it’s referring generally to those baptized in the Catholic Church. What do you make of St. Gregory the Great on this point, Denz. 249?

Well, it was in response to the general sounding statement, “…if having valid baptism were alone generally sufficient for our salvation, then the Lord would not have provided a Church with six other sacraments and other means of sanctification.”
But Baptism, alone, does save as I pointed out.

As It relates to “heretics” and St Gregory’s statement I’m not sure. According to the Church’s view on Baptism, an indelible seal is placed in the recipient as long as the correct form and matter are used. Baptism is a sacrament; it accomplishes what it is meant to accomplish by the work worked, ex opere operato.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

… Baptism is a sacrament; it accomplishes what it is meant to accomplish by the work worked, ex opere operato.

This is a good point, and I’m not sure how to reconcile it with St. Gregory cited above. I find it much harder, however, to reconcile the reception of schismatics into the Church with the view that they already belong to it.

 

[Gorgias]

I find it much harder, however, to reconcile the reception of schismatics into the Church with the view that they already belong to it.

Then, perhaps, the problem is the conclusion that they’re schismatics.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Many Protestants genuinely repent when they commit a sin. They also think that the Catholic Church misinterprets Christianity through no fault of their own.

For a Protestant to be pardoned of his mortal sin, he must make an act of perfect contrition because he lacks the Sacrament of Penance. This is not easy. I doubt most Protestants are even taught of this. If a Protestant has never had a doubt of whether his church was the true church, then he would be inculpably ignorant.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Then, perhaps, the problem is the conclusion that they’re schismatics.

Huh? Converts from Protestant faiths are received into the Church. If they’re not schismatics, i.e. they’re already in the Church, then how can they be received into it?

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Yes, only God judges us; we cannot judge.
That’s all well and good, but is that what the Church professes? :nope:
On what basis do you make that assertion?
Since mortal sin requires full knowledge and deliberate consent, it doesn’t seem ‘difficult’ for those who – ostensibly – don’t have full knowledge. Perhaps you might explain your perspective?
Not sure where you’re coming from. After all, those who die with only venial sin on their souls attain to heaven.
Again, let’s see where you’re getting this. Does the Church teach on how ‘common’ this might be? Or how ‘uncommon’?

I am getting it from various Church-approved catechisms I have, such as the Baltimore Catechism.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Yes, I know that baptism makes us members of the Church. Note the use of the word “alone” in my post above. See Vatican II, Unitatis Redintegratio, no. 3 on this point.

To be clear, I do not say that the baptism of heretics is invalid, but that if having valid baptism were alone generally sufficient for our salvation, then the Lord would not have provided a Church with six other sacraments and other means of sanctification.

Even with the word “alone” Baptism still incorporates a Christian into the Church, and into the Body of Christ. It is in the Catechism, and whatever other documents you care to examine.

With that said, your link to Unitatis Redintegratio fully answers this question with: “It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”

As John Henry Newman liked to characterize the Church of England, it was a bulwark against infidelity. So there is much good, grace and holiness that abides in the people separated from us through no fault of their own. That grace in many instances will lead them to the Catholic Church. But everyone is different, and respond differently.

It’s just something the OP should bear in mind. His parents ARE in the Church IF they are baptized. Not that they have the fullness of Truth or the complete and sufficient aid of the Sacraments, but that there is hope.

 

[guanophore]

This is a good point, and I’m not sure how to reconcile it with St. Gregory cited above. I find it much harder, however, to reconcile the reception of schismatics into the Church with the view that they already belong to it.

It is a matter of reconciliation with an estranged sibling. Becoming a member of the Church through baptism does not mean one remains in full communion Even Catholics place themselves in an excommunicated state.

Huh? Converts from Protestant faiths are received into the Church. If they’re not schismatics, i.e. they’re already in the Church, then how can they be received into it?

If they have a valid baptism, they are received into full communion.The communion was imperfect, if, after baptism, they embraced heresies.

They cannot qualify as schismatics or heretics, though, because this requires that they first embraced the One Faith, to which most of them were never exposed. They stand in the tradition of Apollos, zealous but ill informed.

 

[Gorgias]

Huh? Converts from Protestant faiths are received into the Church. If they’re not schismatics, i.e. they’re already in the Church, then how can they be received into it?

Ahh… that’s where you’re hung up, then. Now I get it…

They’re not being ‘received’ into the Church – they’re “coming into full communion with the Church.” In other words, the Church herself admits that she already has a relationship with them (through their valid Christian baptism), and that this step is really just about making that relationship ‘full’ and completely ‘in communion’ with the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

I am getting it from various Church-approved catechisms I have, such as the Baltimore Catechism.

Can you share these citations with us?

Thanks!

 

[anon67074017]

For a Protestant to be pardoned of his mortal sin, he must make an act of perfect contrition because he lacks the Sacrament of Penance. This is not easy. I doubt most Protestants are even taught of this. If a Protestant has never had a doubt of whether his church was the true church, then he would be inculpably ignorant.

Protestants do perfect contrition in their own ways. You can’t just say you are better than them because you are Catholic. You are being very unfair to many righteous servants of God.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

… into the Church, and into the Body of Christ. …

Do you distinguish one from the other? “The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.” – Humani Generis 27; cf. Mystici Corporis 13.

It is in the Catechism, and whatever other documents you care to examine.

Scripture says we are justified by faith. Does that mean faith alone saves?

… your link to Unitatis Redintegratio fully answers this question …

You left out an important bit:
it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

Not that they have the fullness of Truth or the complete and sufficient aid of the Sacraments, but that there is hope.

On this, at least, we agree.

 

[guanophore]

Protestants do perfect contrition in their own ways. You can’t just say you are better than them because you are Catholic. You are being very unfair to many righteous servants of God.

I don’t think so. Perfect contrition means that we abandon our attachment to sin. Since some of this is unconscious, and we don’t even know we have it, it is very difficult to make a perfect confession.

It is not unfair, it is just the way human nature is, which is why Jesus gave us the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[guanophore]

Do you distinguish one from the other? "The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing." -- Humani Generis 27; cf. Mystici Corporis 13.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

The Church militant subsists in the CC, but the mystical body also contains those who have already gone on to their heavenly reward, including those who would never be identifiable as visible Catholics.

We cannot completely know all the members of the mystical body, since some of them are not visible to us. This is why it is a mystery.

 Scripture says we are justified by faith.  Does that mean faith alone saves?

We are justified by grace, through faith.

It depends upon how you define “faith”.

They are still saved through the Church, whether they know it, or not.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Can you share these citations with us?

Thanks!

I will quote the Baltimore Catechism since it is more well-known. My apologies for the considerable length of the quote; the Catechism was quite thorough in this question.

If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it. …

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never - even in the past - had the slightest doubt of that fact - what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister - not being a true priest - has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition - that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic - with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts - might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. …
I said I give you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.