Really turned off by Roman Catholic mass attended

[horselvr]

Yikes! My Church is Catholic to the Bone and very traditional even in this little podunk town in South Carolina. If anyones Church should be happy clappy it’s mine and let me tell you it goes by the book. I love going to Mass there as the Priests are very strict about the order of Mass.

NO applauding, no jazzy hymns, no alter girls. I am so sorry you are experiencing this and yes do write to the Bishop.

 

[tarboy]

Playing devil’s advocate here

Isn’t the below advice to church hop, what I see Catholics detesting about Protestants and how they jump denominations. I’m not condoning the style of the mass presented, just pointing out a bit of hyprocricy here on the boards.

Maybe some church hopping is justified to give feedback to a parish that is losing it’s way? It does undercut the Catholic position of a unified church though.

On another aspect, I always thought the church community should be your geographical neighbors. Thus hopping between parishes hinders community development.

I think it is termed “heterodox” not “liberal,” but whatever the label…

NO you should NOT expect this. You need to find a more orthodox church, more traditional, they do exist. The atmosphere is completely different. Try another parish.

Unfortunately, it seems the female altar servers are nearly universal, except, from what I have read here, in FSSP parishes. Even the more orthodox parish I attend includes female altar servers, which is a pity.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Playing devil’s advocate here

Isn’t the below advice to church hop, what I see Catholics detesting about Protestants and how they jump denominations. I’m not condoning the style of the mass presented, just pointing out a bit of hyprocricy here on the boards.

Maybe some church hopping is justified to give feedback to a parish that is losing it’s way? It does undercut the Catholic position of a unified church though.

On another aspect, I always thought the church community should be your geographical neighbors. Thus hopping between parishes hinders community development.

It’s not “church hopping” unless you’re… well, hopping churches. Seeking out a more traditional parish and then sticking with it is not church hopping.

 

[nevadairenaeus]

The Our Father prayer being sung at Mass? Is that common? My experience is limited, but I haven’t seen that before. Liturgical abuses were a real stumbling block for me before my conversion. I hope they are only a long drawn out aftershock of Vatican II, and will disappear with time. I think the Church, especially under our current Pope, is trying to remedy this problem.

For me, at the end of the day, these sorts of problems with the liturgy were not sufficent reason to not be in communion with the church of Rome. If there are problems I will pray for their resolution and play whatever small part I can in promoting orthodox Catholicism. For me, the desire to seek out a more pure, more faithful church than the actual imperfect Catholic Church is fundamentally a Protestant mindset. In Protestantism there is schism after schism as individuals try to create their own version of what they believe to be authentic Christianity. But to me there is, for better or worse, only one Church. It is at the same time a church in continual need of reform and the one and only Bride of Christ. I like the way St. Irenaeus put it in the second century:

“He shall also judge those who give rise to schisms, who are destitute of the love of God, and who look to their own special advantage rather than to the unity of the Church; and who for trifling reasons, or any kind of reason which occurs to them, cut in pieces and divide the great and glorious body of Christ, and so far as in them lies, destroy it; men who prate of peace while they give rise to war, and do in truth strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. For no reformation of so great importance can be effected by them as will compensate for the mischief arising from their schism.”

 

[Pnkn]

Since I’m not Roman Catholic, I don’t think what I say would hold much weight with the Bishop.

Hello -

Oh, I would disagree ! After all, you are in the process of converting !

And the bishops pay attention to Obama, and he’s definitely not a Roman Catholic.

Most dioceses have a Vicar for the Clergy listed on their website. I’d email him if I were you…

Best wishes

 

[Roy5]

In this area I’ve read and heard that lively evangelical churches around here are full of former Catholics. Why? Let me suggest five reasons as a start.

 1. Music. The young people especially like the 'pop' praise songs that play such a central role in such churches. They have a way of involving worshipers in singing, while so often Catholic congregations sing poorly.

 2. Informality. There is no prayerbook worship. There is spontaneity, a sense of participation by all, a joyfulness. Applause is common. 

 3. Preaching. The clergy - right or wrong - often have showmanship qualities about them. They preach in a dynamic, attention-maintaining fashion. What they say often is invalid and worse, but people are swayed by the rhetoric as much as by the content.

 4. Friendliness. Attend one of these churches and a dozen hands reach out to greet you. Often Catholic churches can seem cold and impersonal in contrast. Somehow the choice can appear to be between reverent and solemn worship and an atmosphere of raucous, collegiate and exciting exaltation. 

 5. Follow-up. The individual members of these churches often are very evangelistic. Many Catholics first attend because their Protestant neighbors or co-workers extend a warm invitation. Once a person attends and his/her name is on a visitors' card, they can expect further contact, often a home visit soon.

Is it a matter of different strokes for different folks? I wonder. Tastes in the arena of religious faith seem to range from highly liturgical to very unceremonious.

 As for woman leadership and such, these churches differ. Some ordain women, some do not. Mainline Protestant churches now have many thousands of female pastors.

 

[kimon]

Thank you all for the responses! The discussion has been very helpful.

If I may respond in a single post to some of the points brought up above (and I hope to not offend by not responding individually since some of the themes are repeating):

• I do intend to write to the bishop. I hope he at least sends someone to verify what I said and do what he thinks is best. I am confident that whatever his decision may be, it will be for the best, even if his decision is to do nothing.
• I don’t know if I would call my possible (it’s not a done deal yet) coming into communion with Rome a “conversion”. If I were anything other than Orthodox, I would agree with the term.
• I understand the practicality of finding the particular church that offers Mass in a more traditional way. However, what does the fact that 3 out of the 4 churches I’ve gone to, each in a different parish, have had this (forgive the strong word) protestant type Mass, mean for the Church in the US? I’ve been to Orthodox Divine Liturgies in multiple countries and multiple parishes within each country and they’ve all been the same. Why not with the Latin Rite? I’m assuming that the Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome are more consistent. Or is it just a carry-over bias on my side?
• I might feel more comfortable with the form of an Eastern Rite Church but, is that a solution or is it masking an issue? Sort of like treating the symptom and not the cause. (I hope I’m making sense with this)

Thank you all again; as Lancer said, it’s all probably a test.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for the responses! The discussion has been very helpful.

If I may respond in a single post to some of the points brought up above (and I hope to not offend by not responding individually since some of the themes are repeating):

I do intend to write to the bishop. I hope he at least sends someone to verify what I said and do what he thinks is best. I am confident that whatever his decision may be, it will be for the best, even if his decision is to do nothing.

A very good attitude.

I don’t know if I would call my possible (it’s not a done deal yet) coming into communion with Rome a “conversion”. If I were anything other than Orthodox, I would agree with the term.

A good point.

I understand the practicality of finding the particular church that offers Mass in a more traditional way. However, what does the fact that 3 out of the 4 churches I’ve gone to, each in a different parish, have had this (forgive the strong word) protestant type Mass, mean for the Church in the US? I’ve been to Orthodox Divine Liturgies in multiple countries and multiple parishes within each country and they’ve all been the same. Why not with the Latin Rite? I’m assuming that the Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome are more consistent. Or is it just a carry-over bias on my side?

This is a discussion that can go in a lot of different directions. The variations in the Latin Rite Churches in the U.S. have several causes. There is a effort underway to gently draw these parishes back to a more traditional form of worship but it is not being “pushed” but rather more like being “evolved”.
The points that you make about the consistency of he Divine liturgy, regardless of location, and the advantage of that is a point that has been made a number of times in the Latin Church.
This is one of the reasons that the Holy Father decided to normalize (is that the right word?) the use of the TLM (Tridentine Latin Mass) - now referred to as the EF (Extraordinary Form).

I might feel more comfortable with the form of an Eastern Rite Church but, is that a solution or is it masking an issue? Sort of like treating the symptom and not the cause. (I hope I’m making sense with this)

Not at all. If an Eastern Rite Church serves your spiritual needs best then by all means that is the way to go. The fact that the Church has these various rites is simply a testament to the great diversity and beauty contained within the Body of Christ in communion with the Holy Father in Rome.
The Latin Rite Church will continue to struggle with the various problems and will come out stronger…

Peace
James

 

[perro_sarnoso]

(this forum seemed the most appropriate; mods, please move if I was wrong)

Since I have been thinking about coming into communion with Rome for a while now, I’ve been going to mass regularly at a Catholic church in my local parish. Being Greek Orthodox, I’m was really surprised with the girl altar servers, choir, modern music (I really can’t stand the “Our Father” sung like a Top 40s hit on the radio), etc. etc. However, I’ve been dealing with it.

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the “Our Father” tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said “Let’s give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord”.

I felt like I was in a televangelist’s mega church.

As a Greek Orthodox contemplating communion with Rome, is this the kind of Mass I should expect? Or have I just been exposed to so called “liberal” parishes?

Attend a Traditional Latin Mass - ad orientem and then…welcome home

 

[Khalid]

In this area I’ve read and heard that lively evangelical churches around here are full of former Catholics. Why? Let me suggest five reasons as a start.

 1. Music. The young people especially like the 'pop' praise songs that play such a central role in such churches. They have a way of involving worshipers in singing, while so often Catholic congregations sing poorly.

 2. Informality. There is no prayerbook worship. There is spontaneity, a sense of participation by all, a joyfulness. Applause is common. 

 3. Preaching. The clergy - right or wrong - often have showmanship qualities about them. They preach in a dynamic, attention-maintaining fashion. What they say often is invalid and worse, but people are swayed by the rhetoric as much as by the content.

 4. Friendliness. Attend one of these churches and a dozen hands reach out to greet you. Often Catholic churches can seem cold and impersonal in contrast. Somehow the choice can appear to be between reverent and solemn worship and an atmosphere of raucous, collegiate and exciting exaltation. 

 5. Follow-up. The individual members of these churches often are very evangelistic. Many Catholics first attend because their Protestant neighbors or co-workers extend a warm invitation. Once a person attends and his/her name is on a visitors' card, they can expect further contact, often a home visit soon.

Is it a matter of different strokes for different folks? I wonder. Tastes in the arena of religious faith seem to range from highly liturgical to very unceremonious.

 As for woman leadership and such, these churches differ. Some ordain women, some do not. Mainline Protestant churches now have many thousands of female pastors.

Every single one of those is bad - that is, full of irreverence - and damaging to a true faith (especially priestesses/pastoresses, and bad preaching or doctrinally problematic preaching, which is endemic in conservative Protestant congregations, even if the best preachers essentially preach a passage from Matthew Henry or Adam Clarke or Charles Spurgeon verbatim and takes their theology straight from Hodge, Bonhoeffer, or Barth - I’ve been amazed at the degree to which conflicting interpretations of St Augustine and Calvin’s Institutes are taken alone, treated as a second Bible in some congregations - a bad preacher is one that knows no Greek but has a Strong’s Concordance, and then says, “The KJV and NIV are wrong; let me tell you what the Greek really says…” and then spouts some eisegesis that would flunk even a first-year theology student), except for two things which you stated, and I have found to be categorically true: friendliness and follow-up.

In almost every Catholic church I have attended, the priest, when I first show up, is disgruntled and does his best to let me know I’m wasting his time (and some of the priests maintain this forever, some “warm up”), and the “follow-up” is absolutely non-existent except for solicitation of donations once they have my address. Protestant congregations (even the non-Christian Mormons) that I have seen, are, without fail, as you describe as far as friendliness: they go the extra mile to make you feel welcome in any way that they can, and go above and beyond the call of duty to help each other out. There is, in that sense, a truer social (but not spiritual) community in many Protestant congregations, as the members actually form a community within a community; in too many (all, that I have seen) Catholic churches, the limit of social community is going to Mass once a week, speaking to no one, and then dispersing, and maybe a few events a year that have absolutely no bearing on religion.

I believe the excellent practice of “Bible study” should be held in every parish, and is a great way to build true faith and true community - and, above all else, for the participants to grow their knowledge - as it works in the Protestant congregations that I’ve seen.

 

[roveau]

The Our Father prayer being sung at Mass? Is that common? My experience is limited, but I haven’t seen that before. Liturgical abuses were a real stumbling block for me before my conversion. I hope they are only a long drawn out aftershock of Vatican II, and will disappear with time. I think the Church, especially under our current Pope, is trying to remedy this problem…

Yes, it’s quite proper at some Masses to sing the Our Father. For example, if you follow the New Roman Missal, there is an example on page 698 (with the music). You wouldn’t be tapping your feet to it though. I’m pretty sure I have heard this version several times sung at St Peter’s (Vatican) via broadcasts. If the Mass is specifically aimed at the younger ones I don’t see a problem with more up-beat music versions. I think clapping during the the Mass takes away the contemplative mood but I am not certain that it is totally banned.

Really, if you have a serious complaint against your priest, the proper procedure is to see him first about it in all friendliness. The New Testament as well as common sense supports this. The bishop is a busy man. If you are not satisfied with the response, then write to your bishop in all humility.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The Our Father prayer being sung at Mass? Is that common? My experience is limited, but I haven’t seen that before. Liturgical abuses were a real stumbling block for me before my conversion. I hope they are only a long drawn out aftershock of Vatican II, and will disappear with time. I think the Church, especially under our current Pope, is trying to remedy this problem.

I agree, but the problem in this case wasn’t that the Lord’s Prayer was being sung. It is entirely licit for the Lord’s Prayer to be chanted or sung in the Mass; what the OP found so scandalous was that the music used for it sounded like a showtune.

Many parts of the Mass can be sung or chanted. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a Mass in which we chanted the Nicene Creed, but that can be sung or chanted, too.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Thank you all for the responses! The discussion has been very helpful.

I’m glad.

I don’t know if I would call my possible (it’s not a done deal yet) coming into communion with Rome a “conversion”. If I were anything other than Orthodox, I would agree with the term.

What you just said makes a lot of sense. One Orthodox person I know who entered the Catholic Church calls his decision a “translation” rather than a “conversion,” and you’ll find that many eastern Catholics prefer to style themselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome.” To me, that makes perfect sense, because you wouldn’t be abandoning Orthodoxy by entering into communion with Rome.

I understand the practicality of finding the particular church that offers Mass in a more traditional way. However, what does the fact that 3 out of the 4 churches I’ve gone to, each in a different parish, have had this (forgive the strong word) protestant type Mass, mean for the Church in the US? I’ve been to Orthodox Divine Liturgies in multiple countries and multiple parishes within each country and they’ve all been the same. Why not with the Latin Rite?

In the United States (I live there, too), the Latin Catholic parishes are inconsistent in this way. I believe that we are subtly moving toward a more traditional way of celebrating Mass; however, you are correct that right now, one often finds what you have found.

We’re working on it.

I’m assuming that the Eastern Rite Churches in communion with Rome are more consistent.

You are correct. I’ve been to a couple Byzantine Rite Catholic parishes in my time; I’ve been to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great.

If you go to an eastern Catholic church of the Byzantine Rite, I guarantee you it will be extremely familiar to what you know as an Eastern Orthodox Christian. There will, of course, be a few differences - for instance, and most obviously, they commemorate the pope of Rome in their diptychs.

Or is it just a carry-over bias on my side?

No, I don’t think it’s bias; I think you’re right. Many Roman Rite Masses in the United States have that unfortunately secular or Protestant feel to them. As I said above, we’re working on it, but you’re not wrong.

I might feel more comfortable with the form of an Eastern Rite Church but, is that a solution or is it masking an issue?

No, it’s not just masking the issue or treating the symptom. You as an individual do not have an obligation (let alone the power) to fix the way the Roman Rite Mass is offered in countries like the U.S.

Perhaps it would be inappropriate of someone to join an eastern Catholic church if their only reason were dislike of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, but that would not be the principal reason you’d be in an eastern Catholic church: rather, the principal reason you’d be in an eastern Catholic church is that people who join the Catholic Church are by default enrolled in the self-governing church that most closely corresponds to their church of origin. So you would be in a Catholic church that uses the Byzantine Rite.

 

[garyo49]

(this forum seemed the most appropriate; mods, please move if I was wrong)

Since I have been thinking about coming into communion with Rome for a while now, I’ve been going to mass regularly at a Catholic church in my local parish. Being Greek Orthodox, I’m was really surprised with the girl altar servers, choir, modern music (I really can’t stand the “Our Father” sung like a Top 40s hit on the radio), etc. etc. However, I’ve been dealing with it.

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the “Our Father” tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said “Let’s give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord”.

I felt like I was in a televangelist’s mega church.

As a Greek Orthodox contemplating communion with Rome, is this the kind of Mass I should expect? Or have I just been exposed to so called “liberal” parishes?

Every time I read something like this it nearly breaks my heart. We hear so many stories like this, but I am still convinced that it isn’t the norm. The girl alter servers, sadly yes. When I came to my parish four years ago they applauded for everything and it nearly ruined it for me. In Aug. 2010 we got a new pastor. Right from the begining he started “teaching” us. He taught us what was appropriate at Mass. In our weekly buletin there appeared an insert titled “10 sins committed while attending Mass every Sunday”. For example; inappropriate dress, arriving late and leaving early, chewing gum, unnecessary talking in the church especially before and after Mass etc.

At first I thought it would offend some, and it probably did. But, he has made such a difference and I love him for it. His name is Father Martin, a special priest from Mexico. BTW we’re down to only four clappers after Mass now.

 

[Khalid]

I almost put in my original post in this thread, that if one can find an ethnic parish (i.e. Latino), it’s almost always more conservative as well (the Mexican, Latino American, and Spanish churches are truly unrivalled by anything in Western Christendom for beauty of architecture, as well), but the Mass is often not celebrated in English (or is celebrated in both English and Spanish in the one local Latino parish; I don’t know what rubric this falls under). I suppose the same occurs if you get a Latino priest in an otherwise liberal parish.

Imagine one of those posters with the Latino man holding a sign, “No Mexicans, No Burritos” on it, captioned:

“Immigration: it keeps the Church honest.”

 

[catholicanne]

(this forum seemed the most appropriate; mods, please move if I was wrong)

Since I have been thinking about coming into communion with Rome for a while now, I’ve been going to mass regularly at a Catholic church in my local parish. Being Greek Orthodox, I’m was really surprised with the girl altar servers, choir, modern music (I really can’t stand the “Our Father” sung like a Top 40s hit on the radio), etc. etc. However, I’ve been dealing with it.

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the “Our Father” tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said “Let’s give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord”.

I felt like I was in a televangelist’s mega church.

As a Greek Orthodox contemplating communion with Rome, is this the kind of Mass I should expect? Or have I just been exposed to so called “liberal” parishes?

Wow.

Just wow.

I would have run screaming for the hills.

Thank you, Jesus, for leading me to a nice normal conservative church.

 

[poorsinner7]

Unfortunately, the 70’s influence as corrupted many clergy with this sort of heterodox practice. Even my own parish allows things that drive me nuts. I just remind myself that we’re there for Christ Jesus, not my own feelings about things I have no control over. The more orthodox people that come into the Church the quicker this type of activity will disappear. There is a false believe that was propagated by many to make the Catholic mass appear more inviting like some Protestant worship services. It’s a lie, it doesn’t work. I believe it has hurt the Church more. But since God is in control, I do believe that eventually it will disappear. I’ve seen it with my own eyes over the past several decades come back slowly towards center - orthodox.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

God bless you for considering union with Rome. I too would suggest maybe a visit to the EC parish. There’s one near me that is more traditional than the nearest GO Church (EC-like 6 small pews; GO-pews, and lots of um!!)

 

[Geist]

Yesterday, I go to a mass at a different parish and boy was that a shocker! Not only did they have all the above (and their own version of the “Our Father” tune) they were even applauding!

The priest said “Let’s give a round of applause for the presence of the Lord”.

I’m actually embarrassed for you having been there.

Aping (best word for it) the nonsense of megachurches is only going to repulse people seeking an authentic spiritual experience in the Mass.

Our parish is admittedly very 70’s I guess(no kneelers, girl servers, hands held during the Our Father) but it does so gracefully and lovingly. I have a hunch the parish priest is going to be a saint one day, so maybe thats why?

I commend you for not letting a bad experience chase you away. Many parishes do vary from one to another, so, if its feasible try another more suited to you.

 

[choliks]

I’m sorry you experienced that. I’m sure it’s not the norm but the exception in the US (in other countries, local cultural expressions might be mistaken for Evangelical or Protestant influences).

I suggest you visit an Eastern Catholic Church. Your wife can even participate in the liturgy and the sacraments without a hitch.