"Reaping what you Sow" and Karma

[elvisman]

If Hell is a real place then it lies under the East bank of the Jordan: Numbers 16:31-33
“And as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split asunder; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men that belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.”
rossum

As Pieman stated - the verses in Numbers about the punishment for the rebellion of Korah are allegorical as far as Sheol being underneath the earth. It doesn’t mean that Sheol wasn’t a real place.

Secondly - you really need to do your homework about Hell vs Sheol.
Hell is a place of eternal punishment. Sheol was the abode of the dead where both the righteous and the unrighteous went after death. The Greek term for Sheol was Hades.

1 Peter 3:19 tells us that Jesus went there when he died and "preached to the spirits in prison."
The Creeds tell us that Jesus "descended to the dead" after his own death.
**He couldn’t have done this if it wasn’t a real place.

This fact, coupled with the verses I furnished in my last post point to the fact that Hell is a real place of torment.

Please do your homework before responding.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Does Jesus’ teaching of reaping what you sow resemble Karma? Did Jesus teach a concept nearly identical to Karma in his preaching?

No, not at all. Karma is a concept that teaches that a persons act starts a cycle of cause and effect. In other words, good acts bring good things and bad acts bring bad things.

Look at this scenario: “A person volunteers at a soup Kitchen on Monday and then on Tuesday they win the Lottery.”

The cause and the effect have nothing to do with each other. However, a person who believes in Karma might believe they won the lottery because of the good act. They may have even volunteered for the specific reason that they would be rewarded by the Universe and that they deserved to be rewarded.

This is very repugnant in Christianity. This is essentially like believing a person can earn salvation.

As for reaping what you sow…A Christian parent might volunteer in a soup Kitchen so that their children will learn Christianity by example. There is an old saying often attributed to St. Francis Assisi where is told one of his brothers “Go and spread the Gospel, use words only when necessary.” As for reaping bad things…If a father beats his wife you can expect that his son will beat his wife or his daughter will marry a man that beats her. Unlike Karma, in this situation there is an actual relationship between the cause and effect.

Another reason a Christina my volunteer at a soup kitchen is simply for the purpose of loving God as when Jesus said “when you fed the hungry you fed me.”

Yet another reason may be for repentance, to make up for bad things you had done.

Christianity never teaches “Do something Good so something good will happen to you.”

We do not deserve anything. We receive only through God’s grace.

 

[Sufjon]

**As Pieman **stated - the verses in Numbers about the punishment for the rebellion of Korah are allegorical as far as Sheol being underneath the earth. It doesn’t mean that Sheol wasn’t a real place.

**Secondly **- you really need to do your homework about Hell vs Sheol.
Hell is a place of eternal punishment. Sheol was the abode of the dead where both the righteous and the unrighteous went after death. The Greek term for Sheol was Hades.

1 Peter 3:19 tells us that Jesus went there when he died and “preached to the spirits in prison.”
The Creeds tell us that Jesus "descended to the dead" after his own death.
**He couldn’t have done this if it *wasn’t ***a real place.

This fact, coupled with the verses I furnished in my last post point to the fact that Hell is a real place of torment.

Please do your homework before responding.

I think the question relates to karma and eastern schools of thought on things like the concept of hell, and not whether or not you as a Christian should prescribe to any of it. Nor is it in regards as to whether or not it matches any of the teachings of Christ. While myself and others may think they do match, there is not requirement on your part to agree. As for Jesus preaching to spirits in prison, I would see that in this way: there are spirits on prison in this life and in the astral life (astral lives being the lives between lives). To me those are both states of being and not places. These states of being occur without regard to your physical location, and location itself is only relative anyway. While to some it may be obvious to where one is at this moment or any given moment, to an Eastern Mystic like myself, or even someone who has studied physics, that would be a harder thing to say. I cannot say who you are or where you might be. You may be surprised upon being asked the right questions, that you yourself could not say who or where you are. That is always a great question you know - “who are you?” The point is not to argue as to who is right. I will never be able to see these things in the way that you do. I am not asking you to see them as I do. We are sharing, right?

Pardon me for barging in Pieman and Rossum.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[elvisman]

I think the question relates to karma and eastern schools of thought on things like the concept of hell, and not whether or not you as a Christian should prescribe to any of it. Nor is it in regards as to whether or not it matches any of the teachings of Christ. While myself and others may think they do match, there is not requirement on your part to agree. As for Jesus preaching to spirits in prison, I would see that in this way: there are spirits on prison in this life and in the astral life (astral lives being the lives between lives). To me those are both states of being and not places. These states of being occur without regard to your physical location, and location itself is only relative anyway. While to some it may be obvious to where one is at this moment or any given moment, to an Eastern Mystic like myself, or even someone who has studied physics, that would be a harder thing to say. I cannot say who you are or where you might be. You may be surprised upon being asked the right questions, that you yourself could not say who or where you are. That is always a great question you know - “who are you?” The point is not to argue as to who is right. I will never be able to see these things in the way that you do. I am not asking you to see them as I do. We are sharing, right?

Pardon me for barging in Pieman and Rossum.

Your friend
Sufjon

Actually, the question is about whether Jesus taught karmic principles in the Gospels. He did not because the Scriptures flatly reject the idea of reincarnation.

As for your interpretation about his preaching to the spirits in prison, you’re entitled to your opinion – not matter how wrong.

 

[Contarini]

And you’d be wrong.

The Karmic principle is based on the teaching of reincarnation. Jesus’ teaching about reaping what we sow has nothing to do with reincarnation.
Jesus NEVER taught reincarnation or the fact that we should be nice to a dog because we might end up as one in another** life.
This is the Karmic principle and it has nothing to do with Christianity.

Case Closed.

Not exactly. A case could be made that the basic claim of karma has nothing to do with whether or not there’s life after death. However, even if you were to argue that karma essentially implies a future life (since most people die before the effects of their actions have all worked themselves out), the case would still not be closed, since obviously Christianity does hold to a future life. The orthodox Christian tradition does not have room for multiple lives as a human in this world, or for reincarnation as an animal, but you haven’t explained how that’s essential to the concept of karma. How are hell and purgatory not compatible with karma?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Actually, the question is about whether Jesus taught karmic principles in the Gospels. He did not because the Scriptures flatly reject the idea of reincarnation.

They don’t address it. There are a couple of passages in the NT that seem to imply that some form of reincarnation was believed by folks in first-century Judea, though it’s not clear what Jesus’ attitude was to these ideas. The Christian understanding of the human person and the nature of this life exclude the doctrine of metempsychosis (that we are essentially souls that flit from one body to another), which is what most of us mean when we say “reincarnation.” However, Paul Griffiths has argued that the term “reincarnation” should be defined more broadly, and that Christians do in fact believe in a form of reincarnation.

 

[elvisman]

They don’t address it. There are a couple of passages in the NT that seem to imply that some form of reincarnation was believed by folks in first-century Judea, though it’s not clear what Jesus’ attitude was to these ideas. The Christian understanding of the human person and the nature of this life exclude the doctrine of metempsychosis (that we are essentially souls that flit from one body to another), which is what most of us mean when we say “reincarnation.” However, Paul Griffiths has argued that the term “reincarnation” should be defined more broadly, and that Christians do in fact believe in a form of reincarnation.

Sorry Edwin, but you’re wrong.

It is addresed in Hebrews 9.
Heb. 9:27-28 explicitly states:
**"Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, **
so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him."

 

[elvisman]

Not exactly. A case could be made that the basic claim of karma has nothing to do with whether or not there’s life after death. However, even if you were to argue that karma essentially implies a future life (since most people die before the effects of their actions have all worked themselves out), the case would still not be closed, since obviously Christianity does hold to a future life. The orthodox Christian tradition does not have room for multiple lives as a human in this world, or for reincarnation as an animal, but you haven’t explained how that’s essential to the concept of karma. How are hell and purgatory not compatible with karma?

Edwin

As Christians, we DO hold to another life in another realm - not an earthly one.
Heaven, hell and purgatory are not based in this world, whereas karmic consequences are. That’s the essential difference.**

We don’t get to cycle over and over in this world until we achive a state of perfection. I think you know that but are playing devil’s advocated nonetheless.

 

[Sufjon]

Actually, the question is about whether Jesus taught karmic principles in the Gospels. He did not because the Scriptures flatly reject the idea of reincarnation.

As for your interpretation about his preaching to the spirits in prison, you’re entitled to your opinion – not matter how wrong.

Hi Elvisman: I haven’t seen anything in your posts where any scriptures really touch on reincarnation, although on my own I have seen the Apostles make reference to it, and Jesus really seemed to have no comment when the apostles mentioned it. I think it’s a matter of how you read it, and what one is hoping to see when one reads it. Since I have my own faith, I am not hoping to see anything in particular, and hence I am simply being objective to the best of my ability.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Sorry Edwin, but you’re wrong.

It is addresed in Hebrews 9.
Heb. 9:27-28 explicitly states:
"Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him."

Is that Paul to the Hebrews, or Jesus to the Hebrews?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GaryTaylor]

So you really believe your coming back here again till you get this right?

What happens when you get it right? Where do go then?

 

[elvisman]

Is that Paul to the Hebrews, or Jesus to the Hebrews?

Your friend
Sufjon

It doesn’t matter. The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible - the writers were simply the instruments.

The writer of Hebrews is unknown but the words came from GOD.

 

[elvisman]

Hi Elvisman: I haven’t seen anything in your posts where any scriptures really touch on reincarnation, although on my own I have seen the Apostles make reference to it, and Jesus really seemed to have no comment when the apostles mentioned it. I think it’s a matter of how you read it, and what one is hoping to see when one reads it. Since I have my own faith, I am not hoping to see anything in particular, and hence I am simply being objective to the best of my ability.

Your friend
Sufjon

Wrong again.
I already showed you Heb. 9:27-28 where reincarnation is explicitly condemned. We die ONCE - not several times.

Luke 16:19-31 speaks of Lazarus and the rich man who die and are not reincarnated. Each goes to his eternal reward or punishment.

Rom. 6:23 tells us, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Here again, we see that there is no second chance to better ourselves after death.

---

Reincarnation has no place in the teachings of Christianity.

 

[Contarini]

Sorry Edwin, but you’re wrong.

It is addresed in Hebrews 9.
Heb. 9:27-28 explicitly states:
"Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him."

Elvisman,

I agree that this appears to exclude what Griffiths calls metempsychosis, which is what you mean by “reincarnation.” And as I said, that is clearly excluded by the Christian understanding of the human person (I try to avoid avoid the fundamentalist practice of building doctrinal claims on a single prooftext).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

**As Christians, we DO hold to another life in another realm - not an earthly one.
Heaven, hell and purgatory are not based in this world, whereas karmic consequences are. That’s the essential difference.

No, it’s not an essential difference, because karma can work itself out in many different worlds. Saying that it only works itself out in other realms, not this one, is simply a minor tweak. Reincarnation, too, refers to any realm, not just this one–which is why Griffiths argues that Christians (orthodox Christians) do believe in a form of reincarnation. I had never thought that this was a helpful way of using the term, but Griffiths’ knowledge of both Catholic theology and Eastern religions is much greater than mine, so I take his opinion very seriously.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Is that Paul to the Hebrews, or Jesus to the Hebrews?

Your friend
Sufjon

Sufjon,

As orthodox Christians, we accept the entire canonical NT as the inspired Word of God. Furthermore, if you want to reject the orthodox canon, you then have to question whether Jesus really said all the things ascribed to him in the Gospels. So I’m baffled by the distinction you seem to be drawing here.

Edwin

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman,

I agree that this appears to exclude what Griffiths calls metempsychosis, which is what you mean by “reincarnation.” And as I said, that is clearly excluded by the Christian understanding of the human person (I try to avoid avoid the fundamentalist practice of building doctrinal claims on a single prooftext).

Edwin

That is why I also provided **Luke 16:19-31 and **Rom. 6:23. I also **present Matt. 25:31-32 which speaks of the general judgment which doesn’t allow for the concept of reincarnation. **

To that, I would also add 2 Cor. 5:8, which says, “Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord.” Phil. 1:23 echoes this teaching: "I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better."

 

[Sufjon]

So you really believe your coming back here again till you get this right?

Yes Gary, that is what I really believe.

What happens when you get it right? Where do go then?

Where are we now? I am not seeking a particular place, but a state of being. Where do you go Gary?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Christianity is by no mean about Karma. If it was, we would all go to hell! Christianity is about forgiveness of sin and the grace of God. A man can commit a plethora of sins, but if he is truly sorry and asks for forgiveness, he will be forgiven.

Luke 11:11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[a] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

And how about the parable of the Prodigal Son?

 

[Sufjon]

Christianity is by no mean about Karma. If it was, we would all go to hell! Christianity is about forgiveness of sin and the grace of God. A man can commit a plethora of sins, but if he is truly sorry and asks for forgiveness, he will be forgiven.

Luke 11:11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[a] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

And how about the parable of the Prodigal Son?

Why would we all go to hell? What do you see in yourself and others that makes you see that? What do you see Christine?

Your friend
Sufjon