Reason and Belief

[CopticChristian]

Is it reasonable to believe that God became man?

Is it reasonable to believe that God/man died on a cross?

Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus God/man came back from the dead?

Is it reasonable to believe much of what you profess?

It is because I believe in what the bible says.

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

That’s for another thread.

This dialogue is from Mary-sinner Romans 3 and Richard Krastner reasonably does not believe that Mary is without sin. Richard Krastner reasonably believes as stated above. He suggested another thread. I invite Richard and all Protestants to tell about these prophecies that cause one to believe with reason that what I ask is true.

Coptic is red and Richard is blue.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Is it reasonable to believe that God became man?

Is it reasonable to believe that God/man died on a cross?

Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus God/man came back from the dead?

Is it reasonable to believe much of what you profess?

It is because I believe in what the bible says.

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

That’s for another thread.

This dialogue is from Mary-sinner Romans 3 and Richard Krastner reasonably does not believe that Mary is without sin. Richard Krastner reasonably believes as stated above. He suggested another thread. I invite Richard and all Protestants to tell about these prophecies that cause one to believe with reason that what I ask is true.

Coptic is red and Richard is blue.

Are you not familiar with the bible prophecies? By the way the name is Kastner.

 

[JamestheOlder]

I would like to follow this thread to see how the arguments develop. It would seem, Richard, that you have the harder row to hoe.

In my mind reason cannot equal faith, and vice-versa. And the effective results of prophecies do not seem to to have a bearing on what is/is not believed. What seems to be the criteria is the credibility of the messenger…do I believe what he says is true? On what basis do I believe?

In Christ’s case, we have the eye-witness account of His diisciples, plus some scattered historical accounts. We have the Scriptures, which we believe are Divinely inspired, which state, in so many words, “Christ is the promised Messiah, the Son of God.” If this is true, as C.S. Lewis points out, then we must believe everything that Jesus Christ said and taught; the ONLY alternative is to believe He is a Liar.

So, I choose to believe. I have not seen Him in person; I have not heard Him speak. But I still choose to believe Him. That is unreasonable. That is Faith.

 

[JamestheOlder]

I would like to follow this thread to see how the arguments develop. It would seem, Richard, that you have the harder row to hoe.

In my mind reason cannot equal faith, and vice-versa. And the effective results of prophecies do not seem to to have a bearing on what is/is not believed. What seems to be the criteria is the credibility of the messenger…do I believe what he says is true? On what basis do I believe?

In Christ’s case, we have the eye-witness account of His diisciples, plus some scattered historical accounts. We have the Scriptures, which we believe are Divinely inspired, which state, in so many words, “Christ is the promised Messiah, the Son of God.” If this is true, as C.S. Lewis points out, then we must believe everything that Jesus Christ said and taught; the ONLY alternative is to believe He is a Liar.

So, I choose to believe. I have not seen Him in person; I have not heard Him speak. But I still choose to believe Him. That is unreasonable. That is Faith.

 

[ChrisB103]

It doesn’t seem necessary to me to go through all of the prophecies and the proof that they’re true. To me, the greater question still looms: Why do Protestants believe in the books of the Bible that do not prophecy? There are many spiritual books that do not prophecy from around the apostolic period. How do you choose which ones to believe are inspired and which ones are not?

God bless.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you not familiar with the bible prophecies? By the way the name is Kastner.

I did not bring up the issue of prophesies, you did, this is not my paradigm, it is yours. Forgive my spelling Mr. Kastner.

In my experience the prophecy issue as a forefront to believing in the Bible is Protestant not to say that other Catholics and myself do not accept prophecy however you made this a point for believing and all I asked was for you to explain how it was reasonable to believe based on what you state to be based on surety of Prophecy.

You deny the sinless nature of Mary based on reason and state your belief in the aforementioned propositions, as I querried if they were reasonable. All I ask is an exposition of your reason so that I may understand the answer to my question.

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I did not bring up the issue of prophesies, you did, this is not my paradigm, it is yours. Forgive my spelling Mr. Kastner.

In my experience the prophecy issue as a forefront to believing in the Bible is Protestant not to say that other Catholics and myself do not accept prophecy however you made this a point for believing and all I asked was for you to explain how it was reasonable to believe based on what you state to be based on surety of Prophecy.

You deny the sinless nature of Mary based on reason and state your belief in the aforementioned propositions, as I querried if they were reasonable. All I ask is an exposition of your reason so that I may understand the answer to my question.

Thank you:thumbsup:

It’s a simple question Cop. Are you not familiar with the prophecies of the bible and their veracity? If you are, what’s the point of this thread?

I do not believe in the sinless nature of Mary because of this
Rom3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

and this

Rom8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That flesh being the flesh of His mother.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s a simple question Cop. Are you not familiar with the prophecies of the bible and their veracity? If you are, what’s the point of this thread?

I do not believe in the sinless nature of Mary because of this
Rom3
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

and this

Rom8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That flesh being the flesh of His mother.

You based the aforementioned on reason and followed with the beliefs you also base on reason. This digression suggests you are not willing, not able, not likely to provide an answer to the reasonableness of the beliefs you posted and answered with surety based on Prophesy.

The question has nothing to do with my familiarity of Prophesy. The question has to do with surety you based on Prophesy for beliefs being reasonable.

You suggested that my inquiry of your reasonableness would be another thread. I counter with your comments on Mary are part of another thread. Do you not follow your own thinking as it regard propriety in posting?

This would be called a digression, redirect, reframe and time to think. I understand.

I wait for your explanation of the beliefs you state are reasonable based on the surety of Prophesy or not. If it is simple, humor my simple mind with your simple explanation.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You based the aforementioned on reason and followed with the beliefs you also base on reason. This digression suggests you are not willing, not able, not likely to provide an answer to the reasonableness of the beliefs you posted and answered with surety based on Prophesy.

The question has nothing to do with my familiarity of Prophesy. The question has to do with surety you based on Prophesy for beliefs being reasonable.

You suggested that my inquiry of your reasonableness would be another thread. I counter with your comments on Mary are part of another thread. Do you not follow your own thinking as it regard propriety in posting?

This would be called a digression, redirect, reframe and time to think. I understand.

I wait for your explanation of the beliefs you state are reasonable based on the surety of Prophesy or not. If it is simple, humor my simple mind with your simple explanation.

See Cop now you are changing the question. Here is your original question.

I invite Richard and all Protestants to tell about these prophecies that cause one to believe with reason that what I ask is true.

Now you ask a completely different question

I wait for your explanation of the beliefs you state are reasonable based on the surety of Prophesy or not.

If your question is the first as I asked before. I would like to know if you are unfamiliar with the prophecies of the bible. If you are then I would do my best to familiarize you with them. If you are familiar with them, I see no reason to entertain you with my knowledge or lack thereof of bible prophecy and will bow out of this thread.

 

[CopticChristian]

See Cop now you are changing the question. Here is your original question.

Now you ask a completely different question

If your question is the first as I asked before. I would like to know if you are unfamiliar with the prophecies of the bible. If you are then I would do my best to familiarize you with them. If you are familiar with them, I see no reason to entertain you with my knowledge or lack thereof of bible prophecy and will bow out of this thread.

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

That’s for another thread.

Forgive me if I restated without causing you to understand that it is the original posting I would like you to address. I hope this clarifies the question for you. Proceed as you are able.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Forgive me if I restated without causing you to understand that it is the original posting I would like you to address. I hope this clarifies the question for you. Proceed as you are able.

Then as I asked. Are you unfamiliar with bible prophecy? If you can’t or won’t honestly answer this I see no reason to continue.

 

[E.E.N.S]

It doesn’t seem necessary to me to go through all of the prophecies and the proof that they’re true. To me, the greater question still looms: Why do Protestants believe in the books of the Bible that do not prophecy? There are many spiritual books that do not prophecy from around the apostolic period. How do you choose which ones to believe are inspired and which ones are not?

God bless.

Agreed, but this is not my thread.

Honestly, this thread seems like trying to cut down an oak by pulling off its leaves. This energy could be better off spent on more efficacious discussions, IMO.

 

[venotolio]

thank for that post, please write again soon

 

[joe370]

Richard, each of the worlds major religions contain, what they call, fulfilled prophecies - e.g. Baha’i and Mohammad. What about the Quranic prophecies? They too claim the same thing that you are claiming.

Do you think that prophecies like Isiah 7:14 are crystal clear enough to prove the veracity of scripture? I’m not questioning the prophecy, just asking a simple question.

 

[joe370]

Agreed, but this is not my thread.

Honestly, this thread seems like trying to cut down an oak by pulling off its leaves. This energy could be better off spent on more efficacious discussions, IMO.

Actually I think Coptic makes a pretty good point. If fulfilled prophecy is the benchmark by which someone should believe and adhere to a particular religion or embrace a particular body of work, then Christianity has a little competition. Quranic prophecies are said to be quite genuine and true.

 

[CopticChristian]

Then as I asked. Are you unfamiliar with bible prophecy? If you can’t or won’t honestly answer this I see no reason to continue.

I am familiar with Bible Prophecy. I am familiar with Bible Typology. I am familiar with Bible Allegory. I am familiar with Bible. I am familiar with the writings of Paul. I am familiar with the Gospels.

You brought up the point as to Prophesy and it is not for me to expound on Prophesy. There are many are there not? Like anything else I cannot know what you think. I don’t know which Prophesies you are thinking of. There are so called end time Prophesies, Propehsies about nations, Prophesies about Jesus, Prophesies about Israel and who knows how many.

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?

So I ask again.

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

That’s for another thread.

Thank you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I am familiar with Bible Prophecy. I am familiar with Bible Typology. I am familiar with Bible Allegory. I am familiar with Bible. I am familiar with the writings of Paul. I am familiar with the Gospels.

You brought up the point as to Prophesy and it is not for me to expound on Prophesy. There are many are there not? Like anything else I cannot know what you think. I don’t know which Prophesies you are thinking of. There are so called end time Prophesies, Propehsies about nations, Prophesies about Jesus, Prophesies about Israel and who knows how many.

So I ask again.

Thank you.

If you know the prophecies why do you want me to tell you about them?

 

[CopticChristian]

If you know the prophecies why do you want me to tell you about them?

I don’t base my surety of belief as you stated in things I said may not be reasonable, you did.

I asked the following…

Is it reasonable to believe that God became man?

Is it reasonable to believe that God/man died on a cross?

Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus God/man came back from the dead?

Is it reasonable to believe much of what you profess?

You answered the following…

It is because I believe in what the bible says.

I asked again…

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

You responded

[The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?[/COLOR]

You suggested another thread and it appears that you choose not to explain why it is reasonable to believe what I stated as you proposed. I understand you have rethought your position. This is understandable. You suggested another thread and it appears that you are not going to explain. Thus the thread dies.

I will argue from silence that you have realized that you cannot produce sufficient argument to prove with 100% surety based on your proposition that the Bible is truly the word of God based on Prophesy as you proposed. I suppose if I were you I would not tackle this proposition either. I see it as a losing cause. Who wants to be embarrased by a proposition that will fail. It is best not to argue this point for you. It may cause you to rethink your position as it concerns Mary. It weakens all your arguments as it concerns reason and what you believe about Mary and strengthens the beliefs and thoughts that Catholics hold for Mary. Thank you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I don’t base my surety of belief as you stated in things I said may not be reasonable, you did.

What in the world does this mean? Are you saying that you don’t believe those things?

I asked the following…

Is it reasonable to believe that God became man?

Is it reasonable to believe that God/man died on a cross?

Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus God/man came back from the dead?

Is it reasonable to believe much of what you profess?

You answered the following…

It is because I believe in what the bible says.

I asked again…

What is your surety that the Bible is truly the word of God and you can trust what you can believe from this book?

You responded

[The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things. Why do you ask?[/COLOR]

You suggested another thread and it appears that you choose not to explain why it is reasonable to believe what I stated as you proposed.

I answered your question Cop.

The 100% accuracy of it’s prophecy’s. If the prophecy’s of past events came true, I can trust it’s veracity for future events. If it proves true in prophecy, I believe that it is the word of truth in all things.

I understand you have rethought your position. This is understandable. You suggested another thread and it appears that you are not going to explain. Thus the thread dies.

Explain what?

I will argue from silence that you have realized that you cannot produce sufficient argument to prove with 100% surety based on your proposition that the Bible is truly the word of God based on Prophesy as you proposed.

So you don’t want to know about prophecies, You want to argue?

I suppose if I were you I would not tackle this proposition either. I see it as a losing cause. Who wants to be embarrased by a proposition that will fail. It is best not to argue this point for you. It may cause you to rethink your position as it concerns Mary. It weakens all your arguments as it concerns reason and what you believe about Mary and strengthens the beliefs and thoughts that Catholics hold for Mary. Thank you.

So, what I hear you saying here is that the prophecies that were prophecied for times before the present day are not 100% accurate and cannot be used as verity for the rest of the bible. Is that about right? In other words you believe there is error in bible prophecies.

And you didn’t want me to answer this question

Tell me about these prophecies that are 100% accurate.

at all. You simply wanted to argue that my reason for believing in the veracity of the bible was faulty because of those errors.

 

[JamestheOlder]

Okay, Richard, let’s tackle this from another angle:

Just list one to ten prophecies in just the New Testament of the Bible that prove 100% true. For myself, uneducated Catholic and Bible scholar that I may be, I find none that are verifiable or otherwise proven.

Please commence: