Reason behind extension of r. Hand /blessing by laity?

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FAB said:
I had done some reaserch on this before and had found that the main liturgical prayer of the people ends at the communion prayer, which occurs directly after the communion is over with a period of silence. I not certain now were I found the answer, it may have bee in the General instructions. This is why there are announcments after this point and why then there can be speakers such as missionary nuns.
It may be splitting hairs, but it is actually the preist is the one who is giving the blessing, the people are just asked to join him by extending hands. They are not actually saying the blessing , they are simply joining in prayer.
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However, you in your research, you may have either disregarded or not have read the authoritative documents of the Holy See.

This is not about splitting hairs. Ecclesia de Mysterio is very clear about who can do what when, where and how. The laity do not need to raise their hands if they are sure; they can join in their prayers interiorly.

I trust what the official from the CDWDS told us. After all, he is a part of the Congregation that has the rule-making authority here.
 
jwinch2 said:
My understanding from the OP was that the blessing was done at the end of Mass as in, after Mass was over but before people had been dismissed. If it is happening during Mass it would of course be improper.
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It was done before the actual end of Mass.(Before "the Mass is ended…"etc.)
 
benedictgal said:
However, you in your research, you may have either disregarded or not have read the authoritative documents of the Holy See.

This is not about splitting hairs. Ecclesia de Mysterio is very clear about who can do what when, where and how. The laity do not need to raise their hands if they are sure; they can join in their prayers interiorly.

I trust what the official from the CDWDS told us. After all, he is a part of the Congregation that has the rule-making authority here.
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Just to answer you in general,
Blessings given by the faithful are age old,
i.e.
May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be always at your back,
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
And the rains fall soft upon your fields.
And, until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.

This is a very old Irish blessing as you know. Those who gave it were not blurring the line of the Laity and the ministers.
There is no prohibition of personal piety for a lay person to extend hands in blessing. It is simply a form of laying on of hands which is also not prohibited.
There are many blessings that the laity are allowed to give, The Book of Blessings is full of them.
So the question comes down to a gesture used at the end of mass. Is it only reserved to the priest? Before you quote more, I’ve already read the answers from your various sources, I don’t believe it is, since the liturgy of the mass has ended.
But if it really becomes an issue and a document is issued stating specifically that the practice is prohibited, the solution is then to give such blessings after the dismal.
 
FAB said:
Just to answer you in general,
Blessings given by the faithful are age old,
i.e.
May the road rise up to meet you,
May the wind be always at your back,
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
And the rains fall soft upon your fields.
And, until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.

This is a very old Irish blessing as you know. Those who gave it were not blurring the line of the Laity and the ministers.
There is no prohibition of personal piety for a lay person to extend hands in blessing. It is simply a form of laying on of hands which is also not prohibited.
There are many blessings that the laity are allowed to give, The Book of Blessings is full of them.
So the question comes down to a gesture used at the end of mass. Is it only reserved to the priest? Before you quote more, I’ve already read the answers from your various sources, I don’t believe it is, since the liturgy of the mass has ended.
But if it really becomes an issue and a document is issued stating specifically that the practice is prohibited, the solution is then to give such blessings after the dismal.
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FAB, with all due respect, your line of reasoning continues to fail to take into account what the Holy See has written. You seem to be so adamant about over-emphasizing the laity and de-emphasizing the ministerial priesthood. This line of thought is not, as I see it, helpful.

It matters not to me that you disagree with me; however, when you start to disagree with the Holy See and take on an interpretation that is contrary to what the CDWDS and the Congregation for the Clergy has given, then, there are serious problems here.

We do not have the right to tinker with the Church’s official liturgical and ritual books. Furthermore, the laity are not necessarily "blessing"per se, but, they are praying for something or someone. That is why, even in the context of a Communion service, the lay leaders does not see “May the Lord bless you”; rather, the rubric says “May the Lord bless us.”

The position that you are advocating appears to be going against what two Roman discasteries have already stated. However, with all due respect, even if you were to have been at the conference that I had attended and heard it straight from the CDWDS official, I do not know that you would have taken him at his word. He did not speak from the top of his head; he knows the norms and the rubrics because he works for the very body that wrote them. But, that does not seem enough for you.
 
FAB said:
Silly analogy, you loose your augument when you go to the absurd.
The laity shares in the mission of the Church through baptism.
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Don’t blame the trapeze or the trampolines. We first strayed into the absurd when you wrote “thus if it is not prohibited, it can be done”. The assertion is patently ridiculous.

It is very nice that you don’t think the mission of the Church is confined to the clergy, but my request was that you explain the difference between the ministerial priesthood and the baptismal priesthood. Well?
 
FAB said:
I had done some reaserch on this before and had found that the main liturgical prayer of the people ends at the communion prayer, which occurs directly after the communion is over with a period of silence. I not certain now were I found the answer, it may have bee in the General instructions. This is why there are announcments after this point and why then there can be speakers such as missionary nuns.
It may be splitting hairs, but it is actually the preist is the one who is giving the blessing, the people are just asked to join him by extending hands. They are not actually saying the blessing , they are simply joining in prayer.
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Thanks for clarifying, FAB. As I said, I would rather follow what the priest indicates to do than to allow internet postings to affect my behavior at Mass. One person quotes from a document and it’s open to personal interpretation even if it applies or not in this circumstance.

We all mean well and want for reverence and order to prevail and increase. I will continue to pray: “Come, Holy Spirit” rather than “Come, Internet Posting.”
 
Stylites said:
Thanks for clarifying, FAB. As I said, I would rather follow what the priest indicates to do than to allow internet postings to affect my behavior at Mass. One person quotes from a document and it’s open to personal interpretation even if it applies or not in this circumstance.

We all mean well and want for reverence and order to prevail and increase. I will continue to pray: “Come, Holy Spirit” rather than “Come, Internet Posting.”
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So, you are willing to accept FAB’s interposing where he is not sure of himself, and reject the Vatican’s decision on the matter because the Vatican has chosen to post the decision on the internet.

Am I getting that right??

Benedictgal has provided information directly from the authoritative documents of the Church, and you dismiss what the Church has to say as not being in accord with the teachings of the Holy Spirit??

Or were you refering to FAB’s undocumented postings?
 
And, BTW, FAB is incorrect.

The Vatican’s own website lists the concluding rites to the Mass as being the Final Blessing and the Dismissal ( The Mass has ended, go in peace)

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20100422_sac-riti-conclusione_en.html

So who do you think has more authority to state exactly when the Mass is over, FAB or the Vatican?

Also, the Church publishes the Order of the Mass, which lists the Dismissal as finalizing the Mass

Here are the US bishops on the subject.

usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

(page 42)
 
benedictgal said:
FAB, with all due respect, your line of reasoning continues to fail to take into account what the Holy See has written. You seem to be so adamant about over-emphasizing the laity and de-emphasizing the ministerial priesthood. This line of thought is not, as I see it, helpful.

It matters not to me that you disagree with me; however, when you start to disagree with the Holy See and take on an interpretation that is contrary to what the CDWDS and the Congregation for the Clergy has given, then, there are serious problems here.

We do not have the right to tinker with the Church’s official liturgical and ritual books. Furthermore, the laity are not necessarily "blessing"per se, but, they are praying for something or someone. That is why, even in the context of a Communion service, the lay leaders does not see “May the Lord bless you”; rather, the rubric says “May the Lord bless us.”

The position that you are advocating appears to be going against what two Roman discasteries have already stated. However, with all due respect, even if you were to have been at the conference that I had attended and heard it straight from the CDWDS official, I do not know that you would have taken him at his word. He did not speak from the top of his head; he knows the norms and the rubrics because he works for the very body that wrote them. But, that does not seem enough for you.
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benedictgal: I understand the point that you are making and I don’t dispute it. But there are blessings which the Laity do give. The most common is at baptism in the welcoming rite when the parents and god parents are invited to sign the infant. That is a blessing.
even more common when someone sneezes and all around say bless you. Now that may be a silly example but parents have been blessing children for years, people take holy water and bless their homes and others and themselves, they bless their food before they eat it. So yes the laity blesses. So this is not what I believe the members of the CDWDS are concerned about.
The CDWDS concern is the form of blessings during the liturgy. There is a concern as I stated with blurring lines between the ordained and the laity. I am not dismissing what you say they say either. There is still a but, the practice started yeas ago of the priest asking the congregation to extend hands and join in the blessing. This past Sunday was for father’s day, we do it monthly and bless those having birthdays on the first Sunday, or mother’s day, graduates, teachers, catechist and the list continues. In each of these cases it is done after the announcements and before the final blessing and dismissal.
I will look into it further, I hope you will excuse that I would rather trust first hand research than second hand on a blog.
 
EasterJoy said:
Don’t blame the trapeze or the trampolines. We first strayed into the absurd when you wrote “thus if it is not prohibited, it can be done”. The assertion is patently ridiculous.

It is very nice that you don’t think the mission of the Church is confined to the clergy, but my request was that you explain the difference between the ministerial priesthood and the baptismal priesthood. Well?
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This link will give you some answer
catholickey.blogspot.com/2009/07/suffering-defines-baptismal-priesthood.html
 
FAB said:
benedictgal: I understand the point that you are making and I don’t dispute it. But there are blessings which the Laity do give. The most common is at baptism in the welcoming rite when the parents and god parents are invited to sign the infant. That is a blessing.
even more common when someone sneezes and all around say bless you. Now that may be a silly example but parents have been blessing children for years, people take holy water and bless their homes and others and themselves, they bless their food before they eat it. So yes the laity blesses. So this is not what I believe the members of the CDWDS are concerned about.
The CDWDS concern is the form of blessings during the liturgy. There is a concern as I stated with blurring lines between the ordained and the laity. I am not dismissing what you say they say either. There is still a but, the practice started yeas ago of the priest asking the congregation to extend hands and join in the blessing. This past Sunday was for father’s day, we do it monthly and bless those having birthdays on the first Sunday, or mother’s day, graduates, teachers, catechist and the list continues. In each of these cases it is done after the announcements and before the final blessing and dismissal.
I will look into it further, I hope you will excuse that I would rather trust first hand research than second hand on a blog.
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Actually, what I provided is information directly from the authoritative documents of the Holy See. This is not second-hand information. I have posted the sources. Lamentably, and, with all due respect, what you have provided is opinion. Furthermore, the bishop’s comment does not address the issue of who can do what when and how during the Mass. Thus, even your source does not make your point.

The faithful engaging in this practice are being misled into doing something that does not fall within their purview. Because this is done within the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is especially ilicit.
 
FAB said:
Thus if it is not prohibited, it can be done. Having the congregation extend ands during the blessing by the priest engages them in the call of baptism, preist, prophet and servant king.
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You have it backwards. If it isn’t specifically allowed, than it is prohibited. The Liturgy is not what you can’t do but what you can. There wouldn’t be a book big enough to prohibit what can’t be done. It is easier to say what may be done.
 
FAB said:
I had done some reaserch on this before and had found that the main liturgical prayer of the people ends at the communion prayer, which occurs directly after the communion is over with a period of silence. .
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I believe what you write is correct as far as it goes.
The Mass is divided into five parts.
I Introductory Rites
2. Liturgy of the Word
3. Liturgy of the Eucharist which as you note ends at the communion prayer but it doesn’t end Mass.
4. Communion Rite
5. Concluding Rite
All of this is a complete Mass…
FAB said:
I not certain now were I found the answer, it may have bee in the General instructions. This is why there are announcments after this point and why then there can be speakers such as missionary nuns. .
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It is only after the Concluding Rite that they may speak. I know that some priest allow them to speak before.
FAB said:
It may be splitting hairs, but it is actually the preist is the one who is giving the blessing, the people are just asked to join him by extending hands. They are not actually saying the blessing , they are simply joining in prayer.
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Most people would believe that they were partaking in giving the blessing. They are simply joining in prayer? Isn’t that prayer the blessing?
 
adrift said:
You have it backwards. If it isn’t specifically allowed, than it is prohibited. The Liturgy is not what you can’t do but what you can. There wouldn’t be a book big enough to prohibit what can’t be done. It is easier to say what may be done.
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Amen.
 
I think it’s interesting that in all blessings the laity are allowed to perform in the Book of Blessings (De Benedictionibus), they are required to do so with hands joined. The exceptions are 1) when a parent is allowed to trace the sign of the cross on his child’s/children’s foreheads(s) in the Order for the Blessing of Sons and Daughters, and 2) when a lay minister is allowed to trace the sign of the cross on the forehead of the sick in the Order for the Blessing of the Sick. In all other instances, though a priest or deacon may extend their hands for the blessing (or lay hands on the person in certain instances), a lay minister must say the prayer of blessing with hands joined.
 
Regarding the “anything not specifically prohibited is allowed” comment:

• Sacrosanctum Concilium art. 22.3 (1963)
o Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

• Canon 846.1 (1983)
o The liturgical books approved by the competent authority are to be faithfully observed in the celebration of the sacraments; therefore no one on personal authority may add, remove or change anything in them.

• Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1125 (1992)
o For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority of the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.

• General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 24 (2003
o Nevertheless, the priest must remember that he is the servant of the Sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.

• Redemptionis Sacramentum, nos. 31, 59 (2004)
o They ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.
o The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.
 
EasterJoy said:
OK, very nice, but again the answer begs the question.

Are you using Bishop Vasa as an example of a bishop who prefers that the laity assume the posture of the clergy when blessings are being conferred in a church? Is there another Bishop Vasa out there that I don’t know about? :confused:
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No, As the role of laity in the baptismal call of the priesthood.
 
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