Reason for being a Christian

[mikekle]

I was thinking about something earlier that is bugging me a little bit, I can call myself a christian because I go to mass, believe in and pray to God, and try to abide by his laws, but since I am a person who has not ‘felt’ Gods presence at all in my life, like other people do, I dont really know him like many can claim.

I know many people say they ‘love’ God, but Im not sure I can say that, I dont really know him, I am appreciative at the things he has done for me and all, but that would be more along the lines of respect for your creator type of thing and/or realizing there is something much larger than me in this world.

Does anyone think its possible some christians are only christian because they do not want to go to hell when they die, and therefore follow all the bibles rules, go to mass, TRY to do the things they are supposed to in life, etc ONLY to avoid an eternity of suffering…would it be wrong to be this way?

I hope Im getting what my question is, across ok…

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment.Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

 

[Betuchan]

Perhaps your devotion is just as equal but in a different way as someone who says they “love” God. In the sense that despite not feeling anything or having any signs you still show devotion to him and his reward. How much harder is it to respect and follow a parent and their rules when you can’t see or have a two way conversation with a parent. I think God’s rules can be hard and to not love him in that sense and yet still follow every one of them seems like a different yet just as important devotion on your behalf. God may not have revealed himself in that sense to you yet as well but perhaps that will come later (that love that you speak of).

 

[littlestsouls2]

God desires one thing from His creatures: love. Imperfect contrition/love can suffice for salvation (if we make use of Confession), but it is not the ideal.

“In the first place it should be known that if anyone is seeking God, the Beloved is seeking that person much more.”

• St. John of the Cross

Our Lady grants signal graces to those who pray her Rosary every day with devotion. Keep an eye out

 

[Micosil]

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment.Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

This precisely is the difference between perfect contrition, and imperfect contrition (attrition). In perfect contrition, you follow moral precepts because you love God, and what is God? God is love, as Sacred Scripture tells us; you’re doing good for goodness’ sake, you’re in harmony with the very source of all goodness.

In attrition or imperfect contrition, you do good to avoid punishment. While in some cases this is enough (for example, it is enough to validly receive absolution in the sacrament of Reconciliation), for other cases it is not.

Perfect contrition removes the guilt and eternal punishment due to mortal sin, even before the sinner has received absolution in the sacrament of penance, if the person has a firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_contrition

So while imperfect contrition is enough to be validly absolved, it is not enough to be forgiven before the priest actually absolves you, provided you have full intention to get to a priest as soon as possible.

 

[SJacob7]

I think the first question should be, what is the definition of ‘being a Christian’ before we can ask the reason for being a Christian. Christian came from the word Christ, and I don’t see Jesus mentioned once in the above responses.

Can anyone give me the definition of what being a Christian is? There are certainly a lot of people calling themselves one! Thanks!

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Mikekle: I have been a Catholic all my life which is now a considerable amount of time, in fact , fairly close to being out of time, if you get my drift. I’ve been in all the scenarios of belief that a person can imagine. I grew up following God’s laws to avoid eternal damnation, received the sacraments, including Penance (as we called it back then) but did not “know” God in any real sense of the word. I even turned my back on God and His Church for an extended period of many years. My faith never left me however, and in my worst moments, God was there for me, even though I thought not at the time. For some reason, inexplicable to me, the Holy Spirit reached out and grabbed me about 15 years ago in a way that I can only describe as an incredible burning desire to know God, a thirst that overpowered me, experiencing a love so overwhelming I could scarcely fulfill all my other duties of caring for family, working for a living, etc. I set my alarm to get up an hour early to read Scripture, not that I wanted to; I was compelled. I would drive past my church on the way home from work and turn in to go visit with Jesus in Adoration, not that I wanted to in an intellectual way, however I was compelled by love. I know this: God is always with us and in love with us, like a parent with a child He will never leave us. We can be oblivious at times and even be what we view as completely out of sight of the Beloved, but He is always so close and calling to us. Pray, read, study and visit the Blessed Sacrament. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will do it, in the perfect time.

 

[sticknstring73]

I’ve been thinking of this myself. Sometimes as a result I feel like a fraud. But I am not sure if that is my own pride talking, damning myself. Trusting in the Lord and His will is hard stuff. It seems that the more simple a persons outlook on this the easier it is. If it means that they won’t do something because of the consequences then so be it. I’m not sure if their half-faith isn’t adequate. It’s just where they are.

 

[MT1926]

I was thinking about something earlier that is bugging me a little bit, I can call myself a christian because I go to mass, believe in and pray to God, and try to abide by his laws, but since I am a person who has not ‘felt’ Gods presence at all in my life, like other people do, I dont really know him like many can claim.

Just want to make a couple observations of my own life in the hopes you can pull something out of it. I have “felt” Gods presence in my life many times, I saw him working through me, in me and for me. I was able to call myself a Christian, but at the same time I would say I didn’t really know him. So point one is even though I felt God’s presence it wasn’t an eye opening experience for me. I was on the same level you are here.

I know many people say they ‘love’ God, but Im not sure I can say that, I dont really know him, I am appreciative at the things he has done for me and all, but that would be more along the lines of respect for your creator type of thing and/or realizing there is something much larger than me in this world.

Does anyone think its possible some christians are only christian because they do not want to go to hell when they die, and therefore follow all the bibles rules, go to mass, TRY to do the things they are supposed to in life, etc ONLY to avoid an eternity of suffering…would it be wrong to be this way?

Yep that was who I was. The rule follower. It is not for me to judge if this is right or wrong. But knowing what I know now I was missing the big picture. Not sure if you have a family or not but think about it this way. How much would you love being with your family if you never spend time with them? (Not saying you do or don’t). But for me I learned it was quality of time not quantity of time. Never been an avid reader so the Bible was always rough for me, would fall asleep every other page. I’m also a high strung multi-tasker so give me one project and it will take me a month to finish. Give me 4 projects and I’ll get them all done in a week. So keeping focused in adoration was always difficult for me as well. What brought me closest to God was listening to CAL and audio books while I was doing the mindless worldly things that I couldn’t get off my mind while trying to pray. I don’t listen to the radio anymore, if I am in the car CAL podcasts are always on. If I am working on the farm the headphones are in. I barely had to change my daily routine and was able to add about 3 to 4 hours a day learning God’s word. It has brought me closer to God and made me a better Catholic.

God Bless

PS Now that I know where and how to look, I feel his presence in my life daily.

 

[Micosil]

I think the first question should be, what is the definition of ‘being a Christian’ before we can ask the reason for being a Christian. Christian came from the word Christ, and I don’t see Jesus mentioned once in the above responses.

Can anyone give me the definition of what being a Christian is? There are certainly a lot of people calling themselves one! Thanks!

The thing is, and this is why I didn’t address precisely what it means to be a Christian, that there’s a distinction depending on what tradition you come from. My understanding is that in Protestant theology, it is justification by faith which makes one a Christian. As Jimmy Akin says,

… many in the Protestant community hold that some who profess to be Christians are, in fact, not Christians at all.

This is based on the idea that only people with justifying faith are authentic Christians and all others are false Christians.

This is of course, not what the Catholic Church believes. Mr. Akin continues,

This is not Catholic theology, according to which all of the baptized are Christian. Pope Francis, coming from a country with a Catholic ethos, thus assumes that people know that it is baptism that makes you actually a Christian.

So, if you ask me, as I am a Catholic catechumen, it is a valid baptism in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit which makes one a Christian.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Mikekle,
I don’t know if this makes you feel any better, but did you know that Mother Teresa didn’t always feel Christ’s presence in her life? She was arguably one of the godliest people who lived in the past century.

foxnews.com/story/2007/08/24/mother-teresa-did-not-feel-christ-presence-for-last-half-her-life-letters.html

While I agree that we should *want *to do what is right and not just do things to avoid punishment, it is better to keep doing right regardless whether our feelings are there or not. Feelings come and go. However, if you ask God to reveal Himself and become more personal to you, I bet He will.

Revelation 3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me”.

I agree with those who suggest spending more time reading scripture, perhaps using a nice Catholic devotional you can get at your local bookstore. God reveals Himself to us in many ways, but scripture is one of the main ways.

Perhaps schedule a visit with your priest to discuss things with him, if you feel comfortable doing that. If it’s available where you live, you might want to listen to EWTN radio or watch EWTN TV station if you have access to one. Lots of inspirational programs there. Father Larry Richards is a personal favorite of mine. I think you can look him up on Youtube also. He appears to me to be someone who has a strong personal relationship with Christ.

All the best to you. Thanks for being honest and forthright. We all struggle at times, even Mother Teresa did. If she could, it shouldn’t make the rest of us feel so bad when we do.

 

[mikekle]

Hi Mikekle,
I don’t know if this makes you feel any better, but did you know that Mother Teresa didn’t always feel Christ’s presence in her life? She was arguably one of the godliest people who lived in the past century.

Revelation 3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me”.

Yes, I learned that about M. Teresa on a thread here awhile back. I get so frustrated when I hear other people talking about how great their feelings and experiences were regarding God.

I have been in very bad spots a few times and got down on my knees begging God to ‘come eat with me’, but…nothing happens, its always the same. Im not giving up though, these posts have been helpful, thank you to all.

 

[Bradski]

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment. Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

No. The person would not have the same value. And you knew that without asking. But I’m not sure it applies to you (assuming that you are suggesting that you are ‘good’ because you believe you need to be so).

The way I see it is that people can be very good or they can be very bad. We all fall on the line somewhere between those two extremes (and quite often we will drift up and down that line depending on any number of circumstances). What you can therefore say is: ‘That man is a Christian AND he is a good man’. You cannot say: ‘That man is a Christian THEREFORE he is a good man’.

If being a Christian gives you comfort in a cold world, then it is a good thing. If being a Christian reflects the way you believe you should live your life, then it’s a good thing (although I personally don’t think it’s a requirement). If it’s the only reason you don’t do wrong, then you are just trying to avoid punishment.

 

[MT1926]

I get so frustrated when I hear other people talking about how great their feelings and experiences were regarding God.

Don’t confuse feelings with faith. They are not the same thing. Quite often I find these people that "feel their faith " are the ones that tend to fall away the easiest, once the feelings subside. I guess in my mind by relying on a feeling to say you have faith, you are making God do all the work. You are saying I want to have faith why won’t you do the work and give me a feeling or a sign. To me faith is my job it is about how I live my life, how I chose to see God working through me. Every time I do a random act of kindness, everytime I put others before myself I see God working through me, this is what builds my faith.

 

[clem456]

I was thinking about something earlier that is bugging me a little bit, I can call myself a christian because I go to mass, believe in and pray to God, and try to abide by his laws, but since I am a person who has not ‘felt’ Gods presence at all in my life, like other people do, I dont really know him like many can claim.

I know many people say they ‘love’ God, but Im not sure I can say that, I dont really know him, I am appreciative at the things he has done for me and all, but that would be more along the lines of respect for your creator type of thing and/or realizing there is something much larger than me in this world.

Does anyone think its possible some christians are only christian because they do not want to go to hell when they die, and therefore follow all the bibles rules, go to mass, TRY to do the things they are supposed to in life, etc ONLY to avoid an eternity of suffering…would it be wrong to be this way?

I hope Im getting what my question is, across ok…

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment.Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

I think you know this already but for the sake of discussion and terminology…

Our “value” is not based on our virtue. Our value is as a human person, as a child of God, created by God, in the eyes of God, according to his image (imago dei). We have intrinsic value as human persons that cannot be taken away or earned by good behavior. That value is based on relationship (aka love), not merit.

We can accept or reject our value and relationship with God, and so then we merit a relative experience of our own human value.
For ex…
A person who lives according to the minimum of the law, simply avoiding negative consequences for his own sake, has a minimumm experience of this relationship. He is focuse on himself and fulfilling a contract to his advantage.
A person who lives and makes decisions out of love has a more full experience of relationship. He lives in God’s covenant, which is God’s gift of himself.
It makes perfect sense. If we live out of concern for others, we experience them more fully. We experience the person, not the merely the results and merits of actions. Although that is good also, it is simply not the ultimate good. Relationship with God is the ultimate good.

This is the awesome gift of the Incarnation. God gives his very self to us in Jesus Christ. We don’t merely get a reward for good behavior, we receive a person.
*Christ fulfills the law with his love. *

That’s all wonderful, but I am like you, and I normally make self-interested decisions to avoid pain, suffering, and the punishment I fear, rather than out of love for God and others.
So, I have had wildly varying experiences of God’s loving presence over the years. lt can be frustrating, but when life becomes “dry”, I try to simply follow along the way, as you are describing above. Doing what is right, avoiding evil.

The only answer to experiencing God’s love it seems is to persevere in prayer.
Prayer is God’s gift of himself. God prays within us before we even lift our eyes to him. He is already there.
Experiencing him is not something I can demand. The experience of his self is his own gift.

He is usually found in places where we are not looking or accepting him. We think like human beings. We want sight, sound, feelings, powerful experiences that leave no doubt of his presence. But God is God.
He is in the incomprehensible silence, darkness, in the void beyond senses. He is not in the usual places we look.
I also find him only to the degree that I pour myself out for others (frightening, since I am a selfish and irritable person).

 

[In_His_Grace]

I was thinking about something earlier that is bugging me a little bit, I can call myself a christian because I go to mass, believe in and pray to God, and try to abide by his laws, but since I am a person who has not ‘felt’ Gods presence at all in my life, like other people do, I dont really know him like many can claim.

I know many people say they ‘love’ God, but Im not sure I can say that, I dont really know him, I am appreciative at the things he has done for me and all, but that would be more along the lines of respect for your creator type of thing and/or realizing there is something much larger than me in this world.

Does anyone think its possible some christians are only christian because they do not want to go to hell when they die, and therefore follow all the bibles rules, go to mass, TRY to do the things they are supposed to in life, etc ONLY to avoid an eternity of suffering…would it be wrong to be this way?

I hope Im getting what my question is, across ok…

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment.Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

I know exactly how you “feel” mikekle. I find myself where you are at often and in my sixty years here on this earth I have learned not to always trust my “feelings”. ALWAYS trust Jesus.

“Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God–
Naught else is worth believing.

Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.

I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!” (author unknown)

In His Grace

 

[In_His_Grace]

d/p

 

[In_His_Grace]

I was thinking about something earlier that is bugging me a little bit, I can call myself a christian because I go to mass, believe in and pray to God, and try to abide by his laws, but since I am a person who has not ‘felt’ Gods presence at all in my life, like other people do, I dont really know him like many can claim.

I know many people say they ‘love’ God, but Im not sure I can say that, I dont really know him, I am appreciative at the things he has done for me and all, but that would be more along the lines of respect for your creator type of thing and/or realizing there is something much larger than me in this world.

Does anyone think its possible some christians are only christian because they do not want to go to hell when they die, and therefore follow all the bibles rules, go to mass, TRY to do the things they are supposed to in life, etc ONLY to avoid an eternity of suffering…would it be wrong to be this way?

I hope Im getting what my question is, across ok…

A similar question would be, ( I know its a strange one, but its the only scenario I could think of that would fit)…if a person really liked to steal cars but they abstained from doing it, ONLY because they were scared of the consequences, but in their mind, they would do it in a heartbeat if there were no negative consequences, just being good for the sake of avoiding punishment.Would this person have the same ‘value’ as the person who knows its wrong to steal cars and does it not only to avoid jail, but because in their mind, they do not want to cause anyone else harm or do wrong?

I know exactly how you “feel” mikekle. I find myself where you are at often and in my sixty years here on this earth I have learned not to always trust my “feelings”. ALWAYS trust Jesus.

*“Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God–
Naught else is worth believing.

Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.

I’ll trust in God’s unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!” (author unknown)*

In His Grace

 

[mikekle]

No. The person would not have the same value. And you knew that without asking. But I’m not sure it applies to you (assuming that you are suggesting that you are ‘good’ because you believe you need to be so).

.

The person choosing not to steal cars only because of the threat of jail is still choosing to obey the law though, so they are abstaining from their sinful desires even though their mind would like to, same with sinning, we have sinful natures, we would all ‘like’ to sin, thats why sin is so tempting and pleasurable, its more difficult to abstain.

I can call myself a good person, I do not harm anyone, I help others when I get the chance, I generally like most people, I am not the type of person who could even do harm to another, its not in me, but with other sins, lusting, substance use, etc. I could very easily indulge in these if I just let myself go, but Im not sure in my mind, if Im thinking these things are wrong because my faith and beliefs tell me they are wrong, or if Im just abstaining because I dont want to risk being punished, and by punished, I mean, in this life, thru arrest/ jail and the next life with God and judgement.

 

[clem456]

The person choosing not to steal cars only because of the threat of jail is still choosing to obey the law though, so they are abstaining from their sinful desires even though their mind would like to, same with sinning, we have sinful natures, we would all ‘like’ to sin, thats why sin is so tempting and pleasurable, its more difficult to abstain.

I can call myself a good person, I do not harm anyone, I help others when I get the chance, I generally like most people, I am not the type of person who could even do harm to another, its not in me, but with other sins, lusting, substance use, etc. I could very easily indulge in these if I just let myself go, but Im not sure in my mind, if Im thinking these things are wrong because my faith and beliefs tell me they are wrong, or if Im just abstaining because I dont want to risk being punished, and by punished, I mean, in this life, thru arrest/ jail and the next life with God and judgement.

Human beings are sometimes not very good at self evaluating.
We deceive ourselves. We are subjective in our judgments. We subject our value as human beings to our own flawed perceptions and understandings. It is a rare person who knows himself thoroughly and honestly. Our vision is not as good as God’s.

Our value as “human being” is objective. It is not subject to perception, whim, personal failure, success, sin, politics, laws. So we have value as unique and equal persons.
From there we live our lives with various degrees of virtue and purity of motivation.

If you are worried about your merits in purity of motivation, the more you practice the virtues the more pure your motivations become.
In my experience, it takes getting knocked down to see that I am a work in progress, to see that I am motivated selfishly. And so we move forward.

 

[dloved]

Just want to make a couple observations of my own life in the hopes you can pull something out of it. I have “felt” Gods presence in my life many times, I saw him working through me, in me and for me. I was able to call myself a Christian, but at the same time I would say I didn’t really know him. So point one is even though I felt God’s presence it wasn’t an eye opening experience for me. I was on the same level you are here.

Yep that was who I was. The rule follower. It is not for me to judge if this is right or wrong. But knowing what I know now I was missing the big picture. Not sure if you have a family or not but think about it this way. How much would you love being with your family if you never spend time with them? (Not saying you do or don’t). But for me I learned it was quality of time not quantity of time. Never been an avid reader so the Bible was always rough for me, would fall asleep every other page. I’m also a high strung multi-tasker so give me one project and it will take me a month to finish. Give me 4 projects and I’ll get them all done in a week. So keeping focused in adoration was always difficult for me as well. What brought me closest to God was listening to CAL and audio books while I was doing the mindless worldly things that I couldn’t get off my mind while trying to pray. I don’t listen to the radio anymore, if I am in the car CAL podcasts are always on. If I am working on the farm the headphones are in. I barely had to change my daily routine and was able to add about 3 to 4 hours a day learning God’s word. It has brought me closer to God and made me a better Catholic.

God Bless

PS Now that I know where and how to look, I feel his presence in my life daily.

who is CAL? I want to learn how to recognize His Presence and hear His Voice. I feel so confused and lost.