Reason for Creation

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I simply do not see how you can’t desire what you don’t lack.

God obviously acts in Creation and in miracles, in fact we believe He answers our prayers!

He Wills the salvation of souls, correct?

God is the source of all love and Goodness.
It is natural of love to share this love to others. He is fulfilled in this, a Trinity of Persons who love. But, simply because He is fulfilled without it, doesn’t mean He doesn’t want to love others, even if doing not so would not cause any lack.

We are human beings. You need food to survive. If you lack food, you will die.
But, I can desire the salvation of such and such without being not fulfilled by such not happening, as much as I want it to.
 
Life is by design The GOD Test

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21
[7] every one who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."

[21] the people whom I formed for myself
that they might declare my praise.

MIGHT Our choice despite being GOD’S desire that all be saved [1 Tim. 2:3-4]
 
The problem here is, in order to keep his status as a being with no potential, everything that could be created by God either must have eternal existence with God or be eternally impossible to be created. You cannot have it both ways, either everything God is capable of doing has always been done or God has potential. Which do you prefer? Then of course we must ask, if God has created, why cant he uncreate? God lacking any potential would necessarily have to have created and uncreated simultaneously as a part of his eternal nature. Are we even here?!! Thoughts?
You misunderstand what it means for God to be fully actualized. It doesn’t mean he can not act. He is pure act. For something to have potentiality it means that it must have something outside itself actualize that potential in order for it to be actualized. However, the first Cause can not have something outside itself be the cause of itself and still be the first Cause. Therefore it must be fully actualized already. It has no potentiality because it is already fully actualized. Which means it is able to actualize everything else. Without it nothing else could be.
 
I also believe He could if so desired destroy. One of the anathematized teachings said to be of Jan Hus was that God could not destroy.
 
Perhaps I do misunderstand. In order that you further my understanding could you please define your terms for me.
What does it mean to be “pure act”?
Your second sentence is somewhat vague…can you clarify the following?
For something to have potentiality it means that it must have something outside itself actualize that potential in order for it to be actualized.
What definition of potential are you using? It is my understanding that potential is having a quality or ability which may be possibly actualized in distinguishing a beings before actualization from after actualization of that quality or ability. It may include something actualized outside of ones being due to ones potential ability or inside ones being due to ones acquired or discarded qualities. It should not matter if ones potential is actualized from outside influence or inside ability. The result is the same. A change in being. This last part is verbally dense. Can you clarify your meaning any further?
Why does something have to be outside oneself to initiate ones potential? What exactly do you mean by outside oneself? Can you give an example. “…the first cause cannot have something outside itself be the cause of itself…” ok so before all “other” things there is only God. He has no cause he simply is, agreed? " Therefore it must be fully actualized already." What must be fully actualized already? Any potential God might have? “It has no potentiality because it is already fully actualized.” I think your talking about God already being actualized in all his potential? Then since God is eternally fully actualized in his potential everything else is too? Can you compare and contrast the differences for me between this last that you stated and my statement below…
everything that could be created by God either must have eternal existence with God or be eternally impossible to be created. … either everything God is capable of doing has always been done or God has potential. Which do you prefer? Then of course we must ask, if God has created, why cant he uncreate?
As you state…either God from eternity is fully actualized all that can be actualized and thus has no potential or he hasn’t and consequently has potential to create something that hasn’t been actualized in eternity with reference to himself.
Either creation has always been a part of Gods nature or it hasn’t and God has potential. The moment God actualizes something outside himself he has simultaneously produced the potential to do so. There can be no ex nihilo within God since God by definition is complete within himself and there can be no ex nihilo outside of God without God having potential since this would entail an act distinguishable by before and after the cause and effect.
God be with you always.
 
I can only tell you that we are not God and so in our imperfection and limited understanding we indeed may be able to desire what we do not lack…in some fashion. We actually should not compare and contrast on an equal footing our human being with Gods. I think this is a mistake made by everyone from time to time. No matter how much we wish to believe God on some level is relatable to humanity, Jesus not withstanding, it just isn’t possible. God himself told us in holy scripture, his ways are not ours, he his completely “other” than us, but alas, we trip and traipse over our abilities of comprehension and bend over backwards in order to somehow put God in a box we can relate to.
 
If he can create…why not destroy? Is there some argument that says this cant be so? One might ask…can love destroy? If Gods being IS love and love cannot destroy then there may be a case to make.
 
He can.
The anathematized statement was that He cannot.
As in, saying He cannot destroy is wrong.
 
So you’ve said…now, can you give your reasoning behind your assertion?
Do you agree Love can destroy? What makes you think so? Did those who anathematized the assertion that God cannot destroy put forth an argument for such anathematization?
 
God is love; love is outwardly directed.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, God, Chapter 75
[1] Thereby it can be shown, however, that in willing Himself God also wills other things.

[2] For to whom it belongs to win the end principally, to him it belongs to will the things that are ordered to the end for the sake of the end. Now, God Himself is the ultimate end of things, as appears somewhat from what has been said. Hence, because He wills Himself to be, He likewise wills other things, which are ordered to Him as to the end.

[3] Again, everyone desires the perfection of that which is willed and loved by him for its own sake. For the things that we love for their own sake we want to be most perfect, and always to become better and be multiplied as much as possible. But God wills and loves His essence for its own sake. Now, the divine essence cannot be increased or multiplied in itself, as is manifest from what has been said; it can be multiplied solely according to its likeness, which is participated by many. God, therefore, wills the multitude of things in willing and loving His own essence and perfection.

[4] Moreover, whoever loves something in itself and for its own sake consequently loves all the things in which it is found: for example, he who loves sweetness for itself must love all sweet things. But God wills and loves His own being in itself and for its own sake, as shown above. Every other being, however, is by way of likeness a certain participation of His being, as appears somewhat from what has been said. It remains, then, that God, in that He wills and loves Himself, wills and loves other things.

[5] Furthermore, in willing Himself God wills all that is in Him. But all things in a certain manner pre-exist in Him through their proper models, as was shown above. God, therefore, in willing Himself likewise wills other things.

[6] Then, again, the more perfect the power of a being, by so much does its causality extend to more, and more remote, things, as was said above. But the causality of the end consists in this, that other things are desired for its sake. The more perfect an end, therefore, and the more willed, by so much does the will of one willing the end extend to more things for the sake of that end. But the divine essence is most perfect as goodness and as end. It will, therefore, supremely diffuse its causality to many, so that many things may be willed for its sake; and especially so by God, Who wills the divine essence perfectly according to its power.

[7] Moreover, will accompanies intellect. But by His intellect God principally understands Himself, and He understands other things in Himself. In the same way, therefore, He principally wills Himself, and wills all other things in willing Himself.

[8] This is confirmed by the authority of Sacred Scripture. For it is said in Wisdom (11:25): “For You love all things that are, and hate none of the things which You have made.”
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles1.htm#75
 
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Because God is omnipotent.

That doesn’t mean He WOULD destroy, or would want to destroy, simply that He can if He so desired it.

I don’t recall any particular reasoning given.
 
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Good point. Lets remember though that being omnipotent ironically doesn’t mean being able to do anything, only those things which are possible for anything to do.
C.S. Lewis attempts to clarify this:
“His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power.”
So you see, this still begs the question…Is, because God IS love, it intrinsically impossible for love to destroy? Which brings us back to asking if all that can be actualized has been in God then how can God destroy since this entails a change of the state of a being and requires potential in a God with no potential, internal nor external to itself?
 
How is it that you believe everything that is actual is good? Isn’t sin actual? Evil? How do you define the good? I assume by referencing God. How do you define the bad? By referencing the same? Yet scripture tells us that God sustains (actualizes) the bad with the good. If a being can actualize the bad with the good it does not follow that that being cannot NOT create. This would merely in your view be actualizing the bad which God does according to scripture. You just as well say that in order to define God being the essence of goodness itself he would have to do something bad for comparison, like…not create? Otherwise to say God is good would be absolutely meaningless.
 
Well, of course.
However, to say something can be done is different from saying it ever would be done, or even if it is within the Nature of God.
And if we take a broad understanding of destroy, then it becomes obvious.
God can destroy nations in Judgement, can destroy pride, etc.

Say, for instance, destruction of something would serve as a just punishment for something.
 
I think you’ll find that God does very much ‘want’ a good many things.

A God who doesn’t want to see mankind returned home, to see them understand the weight of sin and so much more besides, would have never sent his son so long ago, to highlight that fact.

It may just be me but over complexity to the point of redundancy is far too prevalent at times.

To the laymen. To the mere mortal. To the humble baker.

Does God want you to return to where it all began. Before sin and change. Yes of course.

That God ‘wants’ they may say is a ‘humanisation’. Yes indeed it is. But we stand in his image forevermore and that counts for more, than many think or say.
God bless you ErraticFaith and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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I believe You are correct ErraticFaith.

I also believe, God working on to make the Whole Human race Perfect and He will wipe every tear from EVERYONE’S eyes.
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain.

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Those whom God calls to eternal life: (The timing is God’s and He calls EVERYONE.)

a. BY THE GRACE OF GOD EVERYONE makes the right choice.

b. BY THE GRACE OF GOD EVERYONE keep their right choice.

c. BY THE GRACE OF GOD EVERYONE called RECEIVES God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and die in the state of grace, there is NO exception in ALL Christian history.
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I believe with all my heart, God offers Eternal Life to EVERYONE and God calls EVERYONE to Eternal Life and gives EVERYONE His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance in the way known only to Him.
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Continue
 
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Continuation
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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As many as were ordained to eternal life all RECEIVED God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.), which is an ETERNAL PROTECTION of their Salvation/Everlasting Life, without this protection, everyone called to Eternal Life would end up in hell.DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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Continue
 
Continuation
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification. – COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
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As God is almighty, for to His almighty power wouldn’t make any difference that He is surpassing ALL power of a few people’s intellect and will and He gives only to a few people ALL the graces necessary for their salvation or He is surpassing ALL power of everyone’s intellect and will and He gives to the entire human race ALL the graces necessary for their salvation.
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In either way, God’s process of salvation is exactly the same, only the numbers of the saved are different, a few people or the entire human race.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:

"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
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As we see above, for God to save a few people or to save the entire human race is done EXACTLY the same way.
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Continue
 
Continuation
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ON THE CROSS CHRIST WIPED OUT/NULLIFIED THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD

1 John 2:2; He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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All sins WIPED OUT/NULLIFIED, (I believe) EVERYONE SHOULD BE EQUALLY called (at God’s timing) to Eternal Life and to Justified.
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CCC 154; Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. …
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IN THE WAY DESCRIBED ABOVE AND IN 155, (at God’s timing) EVERYONE COOPERATES WITH GOD’S GRACE
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CCC 155; In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will MOVED by God through grace."
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will WITHOUT forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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God’s Justice is satisfied on the cross, as one sin CANNOT BE PUNISHED TWICE (not even in corrupt human standard), God’s Justice and Love DEMANDS to give equally everyone His grace of Call** (CCCS 1996-1998) to eternal life. + His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; Phil.2:13; De Veritatis 22:9; etc.)
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GOD’S JUSTICE, HIS LOVE AND HIS CARE OF DUTY OF HIS CREATION DEMANDS TO RESTORE EVERYTHING, INCLUDES TO SAVE EVERYONE.
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Acts 3:21; .
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to RESTORE EVERYTHING, as he PROMISED long ago through his holy prophets. – Rom.8:19-21; Eph.1:9-11; Col.1:20; etc.
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Eph.1:9-11; He made known to us the mystery of his will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ,
  1. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to ALL THINGS in heaven and on earth in Christ.
  2. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
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Someone may ask:
What about Christ’s promise that only a few people saved?
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The answer is in the book of Jonah:
Probably the Ninevites were the most wicked people in the whole world, their wickedness went up to God.

God promised to the Ninevites, throw all of them to hell, yet God demonstrated His “rehearsal” of His Universal Salvation on the people of Nineveh.
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God bless you ErraticFaith and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin
 
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I believe either we have differing understandings of the term actual or your mistaken. I believe sin is actual. It was actualized with Adam and Eves transgression from what God defines as the Good. Scripture tells us sin did not enter into the world until they took action and in this way it became actualized. God actualized the potential in man to actually sin, or to make actual sin in Gods creation. So to say God didn’t create sin or evil is to split hairs and look for loopholes in order to dismiss God from any connection what so ever to Evil or mans sin. God is God, originator and sustainer of all. He needs no excuses, nor explanations to justify his particular form of creation. It is what it is. Do you not realize that to create and to not create are both actualizations of a reality due to God. They are indistinguishable in potential for actualization. A lack of a Good thing is Evil only in the actualization of the thing which isn’t Good by comparison. The Good actualizes the Evil by defining it in not being present. There is no void in God, there is no void outside of God. Its absolutely meaningless to say here is Gods boundaries and over there is where God ceases to be and the void begins. When we say Evil is an absence of the Good we can’t mean that where Evil is there is nothing, not even the Good for where is God not? What we must mean is that where evil is actualized it is because it falls outside of What God defines as the Good. Evil is where Good is not actualized but something else is. You have to realize God goes beyond what he has defined as Good for us. Adam and Eve sinned because they transgressed laws established for them which do not apply to God itself.
 
I’m sorry but no matter how you slice this pie nor introduce theological loopholes scripture tells us God defines the Good from the evil. Not only that he specifically says he creates darkness. He defines the light as the Good and separated the two in the beginning. You cant separate something from something else that don’t exist. What defines the Good is arbitrary to God but specific to man. Read Isaiah 45:7. Reread Job…inaction is action. God allowed evil to befall a righteous man. He was incited to ruin Job without reason…Gods words not mine, see Job 2:3. This tells us either God was incapable of preventing Jobs miseries or our conception of evil does not apply to God. Notice in Job how God actually tells Satan that he may do these things to Job but Satan talks to God as if it is God himself doing these things and in the verse above God clearly takes ownership of what befell upon Job. What we would define as the evil action of Satan is redefined in God. Read Job 2:10. Job says to his wife…“Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” Clearly the trouble he is talking about is not good yet Job considers both the good and the trouble to be authored by God. How then can you still say God is neither directly nor indirectly responsible for any evil? You mistakenly equate the evil that men do with the actions of God by insisting upon a universal application of the term to both. This is your theological loophole. What men do is evil, what God does…is simply what God does.
How is it that you think man could do anything of his own accord if God did not sustain our decisions? God is the author of our free will. Free will necessarily creates the potential for sin, ergo God in creating our free will created our potential…even for sin. It may make you feel comfortable in believing God is some Old father figure who completely relates to his children on a one to one basis with total and complete comprehensible love and this goes both ways but its simply not realistic.
 
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