Reason for past wars religious or political dogma?

[JanSobieskiIII]

We could what if it ad infinitum lol There’s definitely many ways it could have played out. Long term though, the planned economy of National Socialism would have collapsed same as the socialist model of the USSR.

 

[niceatheist]

Wars are fought because of access to resources. Whatever the public reasons given are, God, King, Country, Volk, etc. are just marketing ploys to get people to support the effort.

I’d probably put it more broadly that wars are fundamentally about economics, but yes, other than that, the rest is just packaging to get able-bodied men to run off and slaughter and be slaughtered.

Look at the Crusades. Sure, there was some great desire to save Christianity in its birthplace, but the reality was that Anatolia and Palestine represented the most important trade corridor in the Old World; the meeting place of three continents, and whomever controlled could make a fortune off of the goods moving back and forth across the trade routes. So sure, let’s save Jerusalem and Bethlehem and those mildly schismatic Eastern Christians, oh yes, and let’s found Crusader kingdoms as well!

I honestly doubt there’s ever been a war, even a so-called religious war like the Thirty Years War, which really was about religion at all. Religion was simply a placemarker; a bit of good old-fashioned tribalism. That’s not to say there weren’t religious elements; you can’t deny that the Thirty Years War was the inevitable culmination of tensions between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire and surrounding areas, but those tensions were hardly limited to theological disagreements.

In fact, I’d go further and say the Reformation itself was fundamentally economic and political in nature; that a number of Central and Northern European princes had long bristled under what they viewed as the overbearing political power of Rome, and when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses on to the door of Wittenberg Castle, they found the opening that poor old Henry IV never had available to him, and kicked it open. “Why Rome has no business telling us who the bishops can be, and in fact, we reject the whole notion that Rome is even the true and proper Church at all! Thanks for all the churches and treasure!”

 

[edwest211]

Land and resources. Plus looting the country’s treasure, including art objects.

 

[niceatheist]

I don’t personally buy into the idea that Russia is too big to conquer.

The German’s certainly couldn’t do it in a two front war, but all of Russia’s supply trucks, raw materials, trains, etc. were being given to them by the US. Had we followed Patton’s advice and rearmed the Germans and knocked the Soviets out immediately following WWII I think we’d be looking at a much more peaceful world sans the cold war today.

Patton was a nut. A talented nut, but a nut nonetheless. The Soviet Union had a stranglehold on much of Eastern and Central Europe. The Germany Army was in tatters, and it would have taken some considerable effort to regroup what was left of it. And what do you imagine the citizens of Britain, the US, and the other Western Allies would have thought of the whole scheme.

As it was, there was some planning put into WWIII, and it was deemed too costly by far. Pushing through all those Soviet Divisions parked in Central Europe would have been an extraordinarily costly battle, and the Western Allies would have had maybe five or six months at the outside before they’d be grinding to a halt in the same winter conditions that had caused the Germans so much trouble. While it’s possible the Western Allies could have won, the cost of the war in lives and resources, not to mention the further devastation of Central and Eastern Europe, would have been monumental.

And then what? You occupy Russia and what? Hang all the Communists? Impose a new government (that worked so darn well for Germany in 1919-1933)? What would the end game even have been?

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

Ousting the communists and reinstating the royal family (whoever was left anyway) would have been my goal. But it’s one of those things that can be what if’d to death. It would have certainly been costly and unpopular.

 

[niceatheist]

Ousting the communists and reinstating the royal family (whoever was left anyway) would have been my goal. But it’s one of those things that can be what if’d to death. It would have certainly been costly and unpopular.

Nearly thirty years had passed since Nicholas II and his immediate family had been murdered, and let’s not pretend that the Romanovs were universally popular. Nicholas II’s incompetence, the intrigues and stupidity of the Court in the lead up and during the First World War had sullied their reputation. There’s a sort of romanticism about the Romanovs, and while I think Nicholas II, like Louis XVI before him, probably was not an ill-intentioned man, he was a mighty fool who seemed to have bought his own propaganda. Even the Germans had the good sense to sideline Wilhelm II, but sadly, in Russia, Absolutism still survived.

And a post-WWII war against Russia (let’s call it WWIII) would not have been like the European and Pacific Theaters of WWII. The Soviets were Allies even past the unconditional surrender of Germany, and while Churchill and Roosevelt (and later Truman) knew very well that that wouldn’t last, the kind of propaganda the Soviets could have produced that the Western Allies had betrayed them, that they had sought Germany’s subjugation simply to destroy beloved Russia (let’s remember, by the end of WWII, the Communists had dropped much of the Marxist-Leninist rhetoric in favor of the traditional Mother Russia motif, even enlisting the Russian Orthodox Church).

I suspect the Russian people would not have welcomed the Western Allies, nor seen putting some distaff descendant of Nicholas I (like Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich, technically head of the Romanov Dynasty by the end of WWII) on the throne, in a positive light.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

I don’t disagree with any of that, I’d have just like to see a 20th century not marred by the Cold War and the spread of communism.

 

[edwest211]

Interesting reply. General Patton was certainly not a nut. He recognized the Russian threat and was angry that Eastern Europe was handed over to the Soviets. An “Iron Curtain” fell over the Soviet Union. That meant little intelligence was getting out. The head of German Intelligence in the east surrendered to the Americans along with his documents and staff. Winston Churchill had asked his military leaders to draw up a plan regarding options should the Russians decide to move West. It was called “Operation Unthinkable.” The Germans lost World War II due to combined arms. There were plenty of men left over and it was suggested that the Waffen SS be reactivated. Tooling for the Gotha P.60, a twin-engined jet fighter, was on hand.

Given the end of supplies from the West, our ally of convenience would have had a tough go. B-29s were available and a small number of P-80 jet fighters had been deployed to Italy and England right before the end of World War II. Increased V-1 and V-2 production would have added another factor to the mix.

Setting up a Western line of defense and destroying Russian tank and aircraft factories would have squeezed the Russians. The goal would have been to take Moscow. Just like the Japanese, somehow we took over the country, before the Russians did, and wrote them a Constitution. And aside from a small self-defense force, rendered them ineffective as a military power. That would have been the case in Russia.

 

[niceatheist]

Interesting reply. General Patton was certainly not a nut. He recognized the Russian threat and was angry that Eastern Europe was handed over to the Soviets.

Okay, let’s call him “idiosyncratic”. And it wasn’t as if he was the lone voice against the Soviets. Churchill and Roosevelt knew very well what Europe would look like at the end of WWII.

An “Iron Curtain” fell over the Soviet Union. That meant little intelligence was getting out. The head of German Intelligence in the east surrendered to the Americans along with his documents and staff. Winston Churchill had asked his military leaders to draw up a plan regarding options should the Russians decide to move West. It was called “Operation Unthinkable.” The Germans lost World War II due to combined arms. There were plenty of men left over and it was suggested that the Waffen SS be reactivated. Tooling for the Gotha P.60, a twin-engined jet fighter, was on hand.

That was fundamentally a defensive plan, and any actual plans for an offensive war against the Soviets were shelved.

Certainly the remnants of the Nazi Government thought the Western Allies might turn on the Soviets. Admiral Donetz and his short-lived Flensburg Government almost seemed to expect the Americans and British would cut a deal and reconstitute all the German divisions they could to bolster Allied forces in Europe, but the Allieds, Western and Soviet, were united in forcing absolute capitulation and unconditional surrender on Germany, and Donetz ended up in shackles, not commanding some newly allied Germany Army against the Communists.

Given the end of supplies from the West, our ally of convenience would have had a tough go. B-29s were available and a small number of P-80 jet fighters had been deployed to Italy and England right before the end of World War II. Increased V-1 and V-2 production would have added another factor to the mix.

And where were these to be manufactured? Much of Germany’s industry was pulverized, or at least cut off. Supply lines were smashed, so there wasn’t going to be any lightening strike attack on all those Soviet divisions.

Setting up a Western line of defense and destroying Russian tank and aircraft factories would have squeezed the Russians. The goal would have been to take Moscow. Just like the Japanese, somehow we took over the country, before the Russians did, and wrote them a Constitution. And aside from a small self-defense force, rendered them ineffective as a military power. That would have been the case in Russia.

I’m not arguing that ultimately the Allies wouldn’t have been victorious, I’m arguing that the victory would have been extraordinarily expensive in lives and resources, would have further devastated large portions of Central and Eastern Europe, would not likely have lead to the same situation that the Allies accomplished in Germany and Japan; a subjugated and demoralized population. And they would have had at best five months to do it all before they would have had to deal with the Russian Winter.

 

[edwest211]

Just like we did for England, the United States would have sent over whatever was needed and in quick order. The supplies and ammunition for invading Japan were still sitting on Okinawa, along with aircraft. The Russians would have been hit from two directions. The US was already producing copies of the V-1 for the planned invasion of Japan (engines by Ford Motor and airframes by Willis Overland). The US Army captured enough equipment for the assembly of 100 V-2s, including the original German vehicles for fueling and launching. The V-2 required only a small, level piece of ground for launching. That is why the RAF had a devil of a time locating launch sites, especially in wooded areas. The Pershing tank saw limited use during WW II and carried a 90mm gun. It would have outmatched the Soviet T-34.

Both England and France would provide airfields and facilities. Admiral Doenitz and the surrender would remain in place. The German Wehrmacht would come under Allied control and be our new Ally of convenience. Most people don’t know that Bolshevism was regarded as Germany’s biggest threat. One in three men fighting on the Eastern Front were not native Germans. Even the Waffen SS began to accept non-German volunteers. Given the chance, most Germans and others, surrendered to the Americans and British. A limited number of German fighters were being given nose-mounted radars by the end of the war. The FuG 240 “Berlin” radar operated at 9 to 10 cm. A prototype of the second-generation, faster German Me-262 had been built but was reported destroyed during an Allied bombing raid. The German type XXIII U-Boat was in service.

 

[niceatheist]

An invasion through Eastern Siberia? Are you serious?

 

[edwest211]

Air superiority. Russian radars were pathetic.