Reasons for differences between the Quran & the Old Testament

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Sixtus,

Thank you for speaking the truth. May you be rewarded for your honesty.

If jesus is really the son of God then i will be going to hell and all non christians. That is what the implications are .

thanks

salam
 
Well…the main reason is the the Koran was written by ONE MAN who was not completely literate:rolleyes:
That could have something to do with it.
WP
 
Salaam Angelos;
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Angelos:
Read and accept that Your Almighty Allah is no diffferent than a man that “finds” certain things! Your Omniscient Allah becomes aware of certain things after a long time? He discovers like men? The Quran is pure human imagination:

Zul-qarnain finds things in the world:

18: 86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people[89] Then followed he (another) way.

18: 90 Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

18: 93 Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word.

Now read how Mohammed’s Allah is manlike:

93: 3-8 Thy Guardian-Lord hath not forsaken thee, nor is He displeased. And verily the Hereafter will be better for thee than the present. And soon will thy Guardian-Lord give thee (that wherewith) thou shalt be well-pleased. Did He not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter (and care)? And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance. ] And He found thee in need, and made thee independent. 😃

More, your beloved messenger seems to suffer from short memory since your Quran commands him to remember Allah:

29: 45 Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt.

7: 205 And do thou bring thy Lord to remembrance in thy (very) soul, with humility and in reverence, without loudness in words, in the mornings and evenings; and be not thou of those who are unheedful.
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The Arabic word “Wajada” (to find) is used to describe a status or an impression as well as used to say that something is found.

In verse 93: 3-8, Allah (SWT) is talking about the status of His Prophet. He found him orphaned, He found him wandering (without guidance) and He found him in need. I visited Angelos and I found (wajad’tuhu) sitting, writing back to me and I found him very happy:D

Likewise in 18:86; Zul-Quarnain “found” the sun setting in a murky spring. He reached a sea shore and could not go any further, He had the **impression **by looking at the sun that it was setting in the water.

In 29: 45 and 7: 205, the remembrance (Thikr) here is not about forgetting and then remembering. Thikr is a kind of prayer or celebration. When people are sitting in the mosque and talking about religious matters, we say they are in Thikr circle that is remembrance circle, because they are citing the name of Allah (SWT) or just praising Allah (SWT).

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph_Alison said:
Salaam Angelos;

The Arabic word “Wajada” (to find) is used to describe a status or an impression as well as used to say that something is found.

In verse 93: 3-8, Allah (SWT) is talking about the status of His Prophet. He found him orphaned, He found him wandering (without guidance) and He found him in need. I visited Angelos and I found (wajad’tuhu) sitting, writing back to me and I found him very happy:D

Likewise in 18:86; Zul-Quarnain “found” the sun setting in a murky spring. He reached a sea shore and could not go any further, He had the **impression **by looking at the sun that it was setting in the water.

Salaam.
Joseph.
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This means that Allah left His throne and visited His holy messenger to see his status? What I wonder is why the Quran claims that some time passed until Allah became aware of His messenger’s status? Since He is the one that knows something even before it happens, why is it necessary for Him to wait before coming to action? What you criticized in the Old Testament is very similar to the usage in the Quran. The Old Testament uses the word “see”, “remember” etc. to describe ELOHIM as coming to His people’s aid when they begin to suffer.

We read in the Quran:
021: 076 Nuh, when he cried (to Us) aforetime: We **listened to **his (prayer) and delivered him and his family from great distress.

Was Allah not always with Nuh? Did he not know he suffered? Could He not read Nuh’s mind and heart even before he prayed? Of course, He did! The Old testament talks about God from the human perspective. Israelites thought that God had forgotten His covenant with them: this was the only rational explanation for their suffering in the hand of the Egyptians. When God came to save them (He made himself manifest!), He said He remembered His covenant with them by using a metaphoric language that they could understand in accordance with their human mentality. The Bible is FOR men! Thus, it is rather natural to see God using human language to express Himself! 👍

Besides, you did not have to present your comment on the verse describing the sun setting in a murky spring.(The Quran does not refer to the sea) Although the same verb “find” is used in three verses depicting Zul-qarnain’s journey around the world, you say that only the first refers to an impression without a connection to reality. Do you mean Zul-qarnain had the impression that some people lived in the east and west of the world whereas no one was there? :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks for your post 🙂 I am very glad to find you visiting the forum so often and writing friendly messages to me 😉

Salaam
 
Salaam Angelos;
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Angelos:
We read in the Quran:
021: 076 Nuh, when he cried (to Us) aforetime: We **listened to **his (prayer) and delivered him and his family from great distress.

Was Allah not always with Nuh? Did he not know he suffered? Could He not read Nuh’s mind and heart even before he prayed?
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The word listened has been used to translate the Arabic word “Astajabna” which is better translated as “We answered".
“Listened to” is also a good translation because when someone asks something from you and you answer his request, it can also be said that you listened to his request.
We also say: don’t listen to him, meaning don’t do what he is asking for, or take into account what he is suggesting etc. That’s what happened with Noah: He cried to Allah (SWT), who listened to him (i.e. answered him) by delivering him and his family from distress. The word “listened to” in the verse you quoted has the meaning of answered to.
Besides, you did not have to present your comment on the verse describing the sun setting in a murky spring.(The Quran does not refer to the sea) Although the same verb “find” is used in three verses depicting Zul-qarnain’s journey around the world, you say that only the first refers to an impression without a connection to reality. Do you mean Zul-qarnain had the impression that some people lived in the east and west of the world whereas no one was there? :rolleyes:
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I wrote a detailed post about this sometimes ago, but I could not find it, it was probably lost after the maintenance done to CA forums months ago. I will search for it in my computer, if not; I will try to re-write it again.
I am very glad to find you visiting the forum so often and writing friendly messages to me 😉
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No as often as you said. Today is Friday and is time off. I try to interact with the good people of these forums as much as I can.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Salaam Sixtus;
Sixtus said:
I agree Allah [God] is the greatest.

I am on record as saying that all the Moslems I have ever known personally have all been men of goodwill. They have and I stand by that. But I would ask one question. I ask you to suspend your view just for a moment, to read what I have written and to think about the implications of what I have said. Just think about it that is all I ask.

Moslems recognise Jesus as a prophet, even a great prophet. That pleases us Christians. But, ask yourself, just supposen the Christian Christ REALY IS the Son of God.

Now there is no middle ground either we are 100% wrong or we are 100% right. Just think if we are right. What would the implications be for not only islam but the rest of the world?

Peace
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Just a quick question: on what basis Jesus is taken as Son of God?

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
meedo said:
Sixtus,

Thank you for speaking the truth. May you be rewarded for your honesty.

If jesus is really the son of God then i will be going to hell and all non christians. That is what the implications are .

thanks

salam
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If we don’t accept Islam and Muhammad, we and all other unbelievers will be going to hell. That is what the implications are!:rolleyes:
Salam!

Vickie
 
Salaam inJESUS;
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inJESUS:
i still want to know what are the words of a rabbi doing in Quran
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And what are the words of a Rabbi (if it is one who wrote Exodus) doing in the Bible which is beieved to be the word of God?

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph_Alison said:
Salaam inJESUS;

And what are the words of a Rabbi (if it is one who wrote Exodus) doing in the Bible which is beieved to be the word of God?

Salaam.
Joseph.
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the one who wrote Exodus is a prophet. The one from whom Muhammad quoted is a rabbi giving an interpretation.

and we drecreed to Bani Israel that whoever kills a soul ecc is not found in Torah ( as understood by Muslims).

“We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, “The voice of thy brother’s bloods crieth” (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race”.
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 4:10, an ingenious Rabbi invented the supposition that all Abel’s offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications. Clearly Muhammad had no knowledge of the source of the theory set out in the Mishnah but, in hearing it related, simply set out the Rabbi’s suppositions as the eternal decree of God!

Muhammad had heard these teachings from the Jews, and repeated them later as he recited “revelation”.

Then God sent down a raven, which dug the earth to show him how to bury the naked corpse of his brother. – Sura 5:31.

We find a striking parallel between the Quran and a Jewish book of myths and fables. (The “Pirke Rabbi Eliezer”, according to the Encyclopaedia Judaica, is a pseudepigraphic work, attributed to Rabbi Eliezer b. Hyrcanus [first century], but written most probably in the 8th century. It was thought to be earlier than the Qur’an for a long time and some Christian books still reflect this assumption. The Qur’an can obviously not (directly) quote from it, since the Qur’an is older than Pirke. However, Pirke is not a work of new material, written from scratch at that later time but mainly a collection of old traditions many of which are also found in the Talmud and midrashic sources (before Muhammad). As such it is a valuable witness to the stories and legends that are the heritage of the Jewish rabbis and sages. It is a testimony to the kind of stories that were popular in these centuries among the Jews. Pirke is a midrashic “commentary” in the sense of providing allegories to illustrate specific points or principles found in the Torah or Talmud. This is different from what we understand today under a strictly exegetical commentary.) In Pirke Rabbi Eliezer we find this story:

Adam and his companion sat weeping and mourning for him (Abel) and did not know what to do with him as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion was dead, took its body, scratched in the earth, and hid it before their eyes; then said Adam, “I shall do as this raven has done”, and at once he took Abel’s corpse, dug in the earth and hid it. [Geiger, Judaism and Islam, p. 80, as quoted in Gilchrist, Muhammad and the Religion of Islam, p. 205, 206].].
The similarity is obvious. The only difference is that the Qur’an says Cain did the burying, the Pirke says Adam did the burying.
 
Learn something new everyday. The teaching about Cain and Able is a pretty well known one in Judaism. I had not idea that appeared in Quran. That’s fascinating. But the commentary you quote is not actually the Mishna. It is commentary on the Mishna.

The quote you gave was part of a traditional warning that was given to witnesses in capital cases, in order to impress upon them the importance of their testimony and its (literally) world shattering consequences. It is not actually the Mishna of Sanhedrin 4:5, but Sanhedrin 4:5 is the justification for the quote. In any event, it was rabbinc commentary, it was set down in writing by at latest 200 CE and it could easily have been heard by Mohammed. It was today’s version of “Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?” jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/talmud_&_mishna.html
 
My confusion stems from the citation. Generally, my understanding of Talmud is that it is cited by page only. i.e, 4a or 4b (“b” being the other side of the page). But I’ve found several citations to Sanhedrin 4:5. I am assuming that this is not “The Mishna” but another teaching. Which would explain the different citation. But that only strengthen’s your argument since it is clearly a rabbinical teaching and not the direct word of God, as many Jews would say the “Mishna” was.

(How’s that for confusing).

Well, anyway, the important thing is that I was able to figure out an apparent discrepancy, even if it came at the cost of my revealing to the world that I don’t know everything about Judaism.

alert the media.
 
BTW, the sole Musim defense of this that I have seen is the allegation that the Mishna says whoever destroyes an “Israelite” life… and the Koran says human life.

I’m not sure how solid an argument anyone outside of Islam would find this, putting aside for the moment that I don’t believe their interpertation is correct.
 
Since the basis of the quote we’re discussiong is based on the teaching that Adam was created alone to show that the killing of a person kills off a whole world. And Adam wasn’t an Israelite.
 
It is obvious Muhammad copied from the Mishna since he copied Sanhedrin 4.5b in this verse:

5:32 Shakir For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

Notice the ‘children of Israel’ part - that surely points to the Mishnah.
 
Valke2 said:
My confusion stems from the citation. Generally, my understanding of Talmud is that it is cited by page only. i.e, 4a or 4b (“b” being the other side of the page). But I’ve found several citations to Sanhedrin 4:5. I am assuming that this is not “The Mishna” but another teaching. Which would explain the different citation. But that only strengthen’s your argument since it is clearly a rabbinical teaching and not the direct word of God,

as many Jews would say the “Mishna” was.

.

that’s because Muhammad took nothing from God 😉
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Hi people 🙂

It is by no means a coincidence that the story of Adam’s sons was inserted into the Quran in the late Medina period. Although the Islamic scripture has recurrent references to Adam’s story in both Mecca and Medina periods, nothing is known about Adam’s sons until the promulgation of the certain Islamic precepts in the fifth Sura named “Madinah”.

It is clear that the writers of the Quran did not make use of several biblical stories - and Jewish commentaries as well as fables! -unless they regarded them as applicable to the political agenda.

Peace to all seeking the truth to embrace it!
 
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