Reasons for dropping 7 books from the canon?

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I have heard the explanation that Luther and Calvin put the Deutero-canonical books aside (as sacred scripture, that is; I think these books were still included, at first, in Protestant bibles, though in a seperate section) in part because of conflicts with what they believed to be Christian faith. Also I think that there was the question of whether or not the 7 books could be traced back to Hebrew texts. (I have read that Hebrew portions of Tobit and Judith have been discovered in the Qumran caves, dating possibly to the second century BC.) Can anyone can give me more information about why most Protestants adopted the sixty-six book canon?
Also, I’ve heard that Luther wanted to eliminate the book of Revelation at one point. As easy as it is to make the antichrist and Babylon (or the whore thereof) stand for the Papacy, I’m a little impressed that he might have been contemplating such a move; his intentions must not have been all that bad. 😛
 
The books Protestants reject were originally rejected by Jews after the Resurrection. These books were included in the Scriptures our Lord used.
 
I have heard the explanation that Luther and Calvin put the Deutero-canonical books aside (as sacred scripture, that is; I think these books were still included, at first, in Protestant bibles, though in a seperate section) in part because of conflicts with what they believed to be Christian faith. Also I think that there was the question of whether or not the 7 books could be traced back to Hebrew texts. (I have read that Hebrew portions of Tobit and Judith have been discovered in the Qumran caves, dating possibly to the second century BC.) Can anyone can give me more information about why most Protestants adopted the sixty-six book canon?
Also, I’ve heard that Luther wanted to eliminate the book of Revelation at one point. As easy as it is to make the antichrist and Babylon (or the whore thereof) stand for the Papacy, I’m a little impressed that he might have been contemplating such a move; his intentions must not have been all that bad. 😛
From what I learned on some threads…

Luther placed the DCs in a separate section of his Bible, without page numbers…he also wanted to re-order the NT books according to the oldest…wanted to or questioned some books…Hebrews, James, Revalation and (I think) Jude.

The original 1611 KJV had the DC books.

The DC books were removed sometime in the 1820s or so, because a publisher wanted to save money on printing costs and paper…I think it was the British Bible Society…and somebody posted that they had issued a statement regretting this action (need to be confirmed-I had not researched it).
 
I have heard the explanation that Luther and Calvin put the Deutero-canonical books aside (as sacred scripture, that is; I think these books were still included, at first, in Protestant bibles, though in a seperate section) in part because of conflicts with what they believed to be Christian faith. Also I think that there was the question of whether or not the 7 books could be traced back to Hebrew texts. (I have read that Hebrew portions of Tobit and Judith have been discovered in the Qumran caves, dating possibly to the second century BC.) Can anyone can give me more information about why most Protestants adopted the sixty-six book canon?
Also, I’ve heard that Luther wanted to eliminate the book of Revelation at one point. As easy as it is to make the antichrist and Babylon (or the whore thereof) stand for the Papacy, I’m a little impressed that he might have been contemplating such a move; his intentions must not have been all that bad. 😛
*Slightly off topic:
*If I remember correctly, there was also Hebrew portions of Ecclesiasticus discovered from the Qumran caves.
 
Slightly off topic:
If I remember correctly, there was also Hebrew portions of Ecclesiasticus discovered from the Qumran caves.
Yes, along with an overlooked portion of the Psalms, I think. (I am not positive about Judith).
 
The books Protestants reject were originally rejected by Jews after the Resurrection. These books were included in the Scriptures our Lord used.
Very good explanation. The Catholic Bible uses the Septuagint composition of the Old Testament by Jewish leaders in about 200 B.C. The Old Testament used in the KJV was established in approx 95 A.D. to eliminate the Christian use of the Old Testament as justification for the Christian Church. Since the KJV was intended to replace the Christian (Catholic) Bible in use for many centuries, it would stand to reason the later 95 A.D. version of the Old Testament would be adopted. Possibly, in this way they could distinguish themselves from Catholcism just as trhe Jewish leaders did in 95 A.D.
 
The books Protestants reject were originally rejected by Jews after the Resurrection. These books were included in the Scriptures our Lord used.
Maybe. Maybe not. We have no existing copies or lists of the contents of the LXX at the time of Christ. The earliest copies we do have are two hundred years later and the books differ. So do you believe they were set and then two hundred years later they decided to change some things? Or do you believe, as I believe most people who look into such things believe, that the LXX was in flux and remained that way. After all, the Orthodox use the LXX and they have MORE books. It is also true that some NT quotes, not as many as the LXX, favor the MT and some quotes favor…neither
 
I went around and around on this issue with some Protestants on another forum. They would cite this or that ECF as evidence to support their canon (which itself often contradicted their canon), but I could not get them to articulate why this or that ECF was authoritative over and above any other ECF. Conceding such an authority to any identifiable person or body would have left them answering why they only accepted those person(s) Biblical canon but no other doctrines. So at the end of the day, I was left to conclude they really had no reason to defend the 66-book canon other than it was given them via their tradition.
 
I have heard the explanation that Luther and Calvin put the Deutero-canonical books aside (as sacred scripture, that is; I think these books were still included, at first, in Protestant bibles, though in a seperate section) in part because of conflicts with what they believed to be Christian faith.
I think you could say at least in the case of Luther it had more to do with his perceived theological value of the particular books. In Luther’s biblical theology, the Bible is only valuable insofar as it “bears Christ” and he had a kind of ranking system for the biblical material–in other words, (per Luther) some parts of the Bible are more important than others. In his opinion, the Deuterocanonical books were on the very low rung of that ladder.
Also I think that there was the question of whether or not the 7 books could be traced back to Hebrew texts.
Yes, this was a frustration for Jerome as well. Since Luther’s goal was to prepare a translation of the Bible from the original languages he ran into difficulties because he had no access to Hebrew texts for the Deuterocanonicals. But (like Jerome) he translated them anyway based on the Greek texts that were available to him. I’m not sure whether he was or was not aware that certain books (for example 2 Maccabees) likely never had a Hebrew original to begin with.
(I have read that Hebrew portions of Tobit and Judith have been discovered in the Qumran caves, dating possibly to the second century BC.)
Fragments of Sirach and Tobit in Hebrew were discovered at Qumran. A fragment of Baruch was discovered, however it’s in Greek. No Judith.
Can anyone can give me more information about why most Protestants adopted the sixty-six book canon?
As others have noted, over time the deuterocanonicals were dropped from editions of the Bible and the protocanonical version became the standard canonical tradition among Evangelicals in the U.S. Versions appealing to mainline Protestants (the NRSV for example) now typically include the deuterocanonicals and I would say are viewed much as Luther viewed them–valuable to read, but perhaps not the most useful for learning about Christ. As I’ve pointed out on other threads, mainline Protestants who follow the Revised Common Lectionary actually hear a larger proportion of the Deuterocanonicals on Sunday morning than do Catholics. So I’m not sure about your “most Protestants” part of your assertion; one would have to survey Protestantism worldwide and come up with some statistics I guess.

Historically, each Christian group has felt free to adopt their own canon of Scripture, which is why the Evangelical canon differs somewhat from Mainline Protestant, which differs from Catholic, which differs from Greek Orthodox, which differs from Coptic Orthodox, which differs from Armenian Orthodox, etc. etc. You get the idea.

Going back to the Roman Catholic Lectionary, as an outsider it seems very odd that some Catholics make a big fuss about the canon, but then conversely never proclaim some of them as Scripture in the context of the daily and Sunday Mass (e.g., the Book of Judith, since you mentioned it.)
Also, I’ve heard that Luther wanted to eliminate the book of Revelation at one point. As easy as it is to make the antichrist and Babylon (or the whore thereof) stand for the Papacy, I’m a little impressed that he might have been contemplating such a move; his intentions must not have been all that bad. 😛
This and similar assertions are often bandied about here at CAF, but have no historical merit. (They often appear in the form: “Luther wanted to remove X book but they wouldn’t let him.”) As if Luther would have ever kowtowed to pressure from some mysterious “they” 🙂

The truth of the matter is that Luther didn’t have much use for certain books and was not shy about expression his opinion. But he never “tried” to remove them–that’s pure calumny. He found Revelation extremely difficult to understand and said as much. Interestingly though, Luther also commissioned Lucas Cranach to do woodcuts to illustrate the Book of Revelation in the first two editions of his New Testament, so Luther must have given it some weight.
 
The Old Testament used in the KJV was established in approx 95 A.D. to eliminate the Christian use of the Old Testament as justification for the Christian Church.
As far as I know, there is no evidence whatsoever that supports this assertion.
 
I have heard the explanation that Luther and Calvin put the Deutero-canonical books aside (as sacred scripture, that is; I think these books were still included, at first, in Protestant bibles, though in a seperate section) in part because of conflicts with what they believed to be Christian faith. Also I think that there was the question of whether or not the 7 books could be traced back to Hebrew texts. (I have read that Hebrew portions of Tobit and Judith have been discovered in the Qumran caves, dating possibly to the second century BC.) Can anyone can give me more information about why most Protestants adopted the sixty-six book canon?
Also, I’ve heard that Luther wanted to eliminate the book of Revelation at one point. As easy as it is to make the antichrist and Babylon (or the whore thereof) stand for the Papacy, I’m a little impressed that he might have been contemplating such a move; his intentions must not have been all that bad. 😛
All King James Bibles published before 1666 included the Apocrypha.[18] In 1826,[19] the British and Foreign Bible Society decided that no BFBS funds were to pay for printing any Apocryphal books anywhere. Since then most modern editions of the Bible and reprintings of the King James Bible omit the Apocrypha section. In the 18th century, the Apocrypha section was omitted from the Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims version. In the 1979 revision of the Vulgate, the section was dropped. Modern reprintings of the Clementine Vulgate commonly omit the Apocrypha section. Many reprintings of older versions of the Bible now omit the apocrypha and many newer translations and revisions have never included them at all.

The American Bible Society lifted restrictions on the publication of Bibles with the Apocrypha in 1964. The British and Foreign Bible Society followed in 1966.[20] The Stuttgart edition of the Vulgate (the printed edition, not most of the on-line editions), which is published by the UBS, contains the Clementine Apocrypha as well as the Epistle to the Laodiceans and Psalm 151

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
 
This and similar assertions are often bandied about here at CAF, but have no historical merit. (They often appear in the form: “Luther wanted to remove X book but they wouldn’t let him.”) As if Luther would have ever kowtowed to pressure from some mysterious “they” 🙂
Though some may not mention (or perhaps not know why) Luther’s sentiment on Revelation comes from his 1522 preface of the book in which he wrote: *"[T]o my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."*He likewise spoke quite ill of James in more than one place. I have heard that Luther retracted his Revelation comments in subsequent editions of his Bible by those who wish to defend his 1522 comments.
 
Though some may not mention (or perhaps not know why) Luther’s sentiment on Revelation comes from his 1522 preface of the book in which he wrote: "[T]o my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."He likewise spoke quite ill of James in more than one place. I have heard that Luther retracted his Revelation comments in subsequent editions of his Bible by those who wish to defend his 1522 comments.
And of course Luther wouldn’t be the first person to express doubts about Revelation (cf. judgments of Eusebius and Jerome).

But this is where I think things often go “off the rails” here at CAF on this topic. Note that I’m not saying that YOU’RE doing this, but I have seen the following problem frequently.

Luther’s judgments and critiques about the value of individual books of the Bible are personal ones–he tells people what he thinks and basically lets people judge for themselves. Of course anyone is free to disagree with that general principle in terms of biblical theology, but often comments such as the ones you’ve noted are wrongly taken by modern Catholics as proof that Luther was trying to “remove books” from the N.T. (but then was somehow thwarted by the mysterious “they” as I noted in my post above)–as if Luther had authority for Late Modern Protestants that was somehow analogous to a contemporary Catholic pope. Luther included Revelation and James in every Bible that he published.
 
And of course Luther wouldn’t be the first person to express doubts about Revelation (cf. judgments of Eusebius and Jerome).

But this is where I think things often go “off the rails” here at CAF on this topic. Note that I’m not saying that YOU’RE doing this, but I have seen the following problem frequently.
That’s fine - I’m all about being able to back up assertions. :o My only problem with bringing up varying opinions on ECFs (just as I did the other day when I spoke of Origen’s doubt of 2nd Peter :o), is that those persons recognized an authoritative body, whereas Luther would criticize Catholic authority on one hand and prop himself up on the other. His Open Letter on Translating contains some of the most bombastic polemics I’ve ever read for a historical figure. At the end of the day, I don’t think Luther offered any better explanation for his canon than anyone else who refuses to grant authority to a visible body.
 
That’s fine - I’m all about being able to back up assertions. :o My only problem with bringing up varying opinions on ECFs (just as I did the other day when I spoke of Origen’s doubt of 2nd Peter :o), is that those persons recognized an authoritative body, whereas Luther would criticize Catholic authority on one hand and prop himself up on the other. His Open Letter on Translating contains some of the most bombastic polemics I’ve ever read for a historical figure. At the end of the day, I don’t think Luther offered any better explanation for his canon than anyone else who refuses to grant authority to a visible body.
Yes, I don’t think one church body truly has any better historical claims to a “correct” canon than any other, especially when it comes to differences between Churches that have reliable apostolic roots. I think it’s more accurate to simply note that the canons developed differently in different settings–each has their own Tradition–and leave it at that.
 
Yes, I don’t think one church body truly has any better historical claims to a “correct” canon than any other, especially when it comes to differences between Churches that have reliable apostolic roots. I think it’s more accurate to simply note that the canons developed differently in different settings–each has their own Tradition–and leave it at that.
A good example of relativism which excludes an absolute truth regarding the inspired text. God does not let humans decide what is inspired and what is not. The same Holy Spirit who inspired the authors of Scirpture inspired the Church to acknowledge which writings would be canonical. To think otherwise is to accept a God of confusion and a Body of Christ that is following whatever it is that they believe to be inspired. We can now bring in the Book of Mormon, the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and any other text that claims itself to be inspired.

There is a closed canon of Scripture and this canon can only be acknowledged by the visible Church founded by Christ. Anything else is up for grabs.
 
Dave Noonan #15
Yes, I don’t think one church body truly has any better historical claims to a “correct” canon than any other, especially when it comes to differences between Churches that have reliable apostolic roots. I think it’s more accurate to simply note that the canons developed differently in different settings–each has their own Tradition–and leave it at that.
No. Christ built His Church on Peter, the rock, and gave Him alone supreme authority in His name.
teachccd
There is a closed canon of Scripture and this canon can only be acknowledged by the visible Church founded by Christ. Anything else is up for grabs.
Correct.
 
A good example of relativism which excludes an absolute truth regarding the inspired text. God does not let humans decide what is inspired and what is not. The same Holy Spirit who inspired the authors of Scirpture inspired the Church to acknowledge which writings would be canonical. To think otherwise is to accept a God of confusion and a Body of Christ that is following whatever it is that they believe to be inspired. We can now bring in the Book of Mormon, the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and any other text that claims itself to be inspired.

There is a closed canon of Scripture and this canon can only be acknowledged by the visible Church founded by Christ. Anything else is up for grabs.
Unfortunately, your claim doesn’t jibe with history or even the contemporary situation. The Church has always had a diverse biblical canon. Even within the Catholic Church itself, (Latinate versus Eastern Rites) there’s diversity in the biblical canon–both in content and theology–which has never been a cause of schism, nor even a real issue as far as I know. I’m sure you don’t think that diversity causes the Catholic Church to acknowledge and propagate a “God of confusion.”

By the way, the term “absolute truth” is simply nonsensical. Statements are either true or they aren’t; there aren’t some true things that are more true than other true things.
 
Yes, I don’t think one church body truly has any better historical claims to a “correct” canon than any other, especially when it comes to differences between Churches that have reliable apostolic roots. I think it’s more accurate to simply note that the canons developed differently in different settings–each has their own Tradition–and leave it at that.
Ok, but I wasn’t suggesting anything like that––I don’t think that is an adequate response to the reality of diverse canons. :o It just suggests let’s not argue about it, or it is as teachccd said––a relativist position.
 
Dave Noonan #18
The Church has always had a diverse biblical canon
Incorrect.
The Septuagint version of Scripture, from which Christ quoted, includes the Deuterocanonical books. The Septuagint, complete with the deuterocanononical books, was first embraced, not by the Council of Trent, but by Jesus of Nazareth and his Apostles.

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

No one else has any authority to define or change what Christ’s Church has taught infallibly.

Answer by Fr. John Trigilio on Sept 17, 2010 (EWTN):
The Catholic Bible has 46 books in the Old Testament, the Protestant Bible has 39 books in the O.T. Both have 27 books in the New Testament. Martin Luther removed 7 books from the O.T. when he wrote his German Bible. The first Bible translated from Hebrew & Greek by St. Jerome in 400 AD had all 46 OT + 27 NT as did the Latin Guttenburg Bible of the 15th c.
 
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