Reasons not to be Catholic?

[Gabriel_of_12]

lazydaisy67;7884650]I’ve wanted to jump in on conversations like this but always hesitate. I guess I think it’s because it’s pretty pointless. I do have to say that with the exception of the people on this forum, I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk about reading the Bible, let alone quote a Bible verse except the Peter the Pope verse in Matthew.

Hello lazydaisy, I just wanted you to know your post did not go unnoticed or is never taken as pointless. You have a common misconception of our Catholic faith, which is 2000years in practice. For many centuries continuing today, our Catholic faith has come to us be “hearing and hearing the Word of God”, especially for the first1600 years most laity could not read. Thus the scriptures are not just read and taught in liturgy but are lived out.

Have you ever talked to one of our bishops, priests, deacons or religious about the bible? To be sure these are set apart from the laity both in scripture knowledge and teaching. Catholics today are able to attach the written scripture to our oral Apostolic Sacred Traditions revealed in scripture from our biblical doctrinal faith. It would appear memorizing book and verse does not supersede the practice of the biblical principles being practiced in the Catholic faith.

You are aware that the Catholic Church canonized the bible books as inspired of God? and that Protestantism removed 7 canonized bible books and relabeled them as not inspired of God. By what authority this has been done? Is the question a Catholic would ask protestants of their bible books.

I’ve never known a Catholic who believes that the Eucharist is transformed in some way to the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ. When I’ve tried to get them to clarify that for me they usually just say, “I don’t know, that’s just what they tell us”. I’ve heard that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the Saints and icons and what-not, but it’s not what I actually SEE in practice. I’ve SEEN people bowing down in front of a statue of Mary. I guess that’s just veneration. I don’t know the difference.

This is another common objection to Catholicism. Do you have photos of past loved ones or living loved ones hanging on the walls of your home? Do you worship them? I hope not? You see our Catholic Saints are living they are not dead, they remain in the body of Christ, because Christ lives. When these saints lived they did not have cameras or video, so they created images of them in art or statues. “Pictures paint a thousand words”.

The veneration you might see is not paid to the statue, but to heaven when the Saints and Angels are in the presence of God. Would you venerate (pay honor or respect) to the president of the U.S, a Royal king or queen of a country, a supreme Court judge? There is no difference here.

The posture being presented by the Catholic is always venerable before our King of King and Lord of Lords in the company with His Saints and Angels. Here are 3 biblical verses that support the Catholic doctrine in the “communion of Saints”.

**Romans 14:8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, 3 and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
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For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. **

Luke 20:34 Jesus said to them, “The children of this age marry and remarry;
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**but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection **of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36
They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise. 9
37
That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called ‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
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and **he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” **

1Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
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who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;lazydaisy;

I have a Bible, I read it daily and it all seems pretty clear to me (except maybe the book of Revelation) and I don’t have problems understanding it. I’ve read the Catholic Bible too, and don’t have any problems understanding that either.

The 2000 year old Christian interpretation of Revelations as being the liturgy in heaven practiced in the liturgy of the Catholic mass, reveals kneeling, standing, worship, singing, reading, which are physical postures revealed in our Catholic liturgy and prayers. Learning this would remove any fear of veneration of saints while being in the presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity on earth as it is in heaven. Grasping the heavenly liturgy revealed in Revelations, unveils the posture of Catholics and worship in Spirit and Truth before the throne of God.

I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night??? Seriously? I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there!

Jesus words come to pass in your observation in His kingdom. When the weeds are allowed to grow along with the wheat (see Matthew 13:24…) If you want to make a comparison chart of Catholic living the walk and talking the talk, you only have to begin today and go back to the first century in the lives of our Popes, priests, bishops, deacons, religious including female saints. Many of these went to their martyrdom rejoicing, while being persecuted and tortured. As Catholic laity we try to live the model of these Christians and at many times fail. But we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I’ve read the posts that bash the “fundies”, or “born agains” as if that’s something bad, or just plain Protestant and yet Pope John Paul told the audience in Denver that NOBODY would go to heaven unless they did what John 3:3 says. By the way, that verse says you must be born again.

Correction Jesus used the word “Anothen” which has a double meaning from the Aramaic which Jesus spoke to mean “born from above” or “born again”. Nicodemus the unbeliever chose to take the meaning “born again” in the natural sense of being reborn from his mother’s womb. Jesus concludes with “Baptism” = “born from above” by water and spirit. When Catholics use this term “born again” it is always referencing “baptism” of water and spirit as Jesus defined in John 3:3-5.

Maybe the OP’s question should be “Reasons not to be Religious”. Perhaps that’s what Jesus was trying to address when he challenged the Pharisees and Sadducees.

From a Catholic perspective, Jesus did not come to abolish the law and prophets but to fulfill them. Jesus was taking the Old covenant and renewing in Himself. Jesus calls us to be “perfect” as He is perfect. Jesus gave us commandments and sacraments so that religiously we can attain this perfection in Jesus life, which He gives His body in the sacramental economy, when God is all and in all. The last supper is a religious practice instituted Jesus Christ himself, are we to disobey God? There is much more to be said here about the Apostles handing down their Sacred Traditions and practices in the body of Christ His Catholic Church.

I believe God wants relationship, not religion. He gave us His word to show us what and who He is. If He hadn’t desired a relationship with humans, why would He have bothered showing us how to get to know Him? He gave us His Son so that ALL could be saved. I don’t know, just thinking out loud. Not to start a fight, just more observation than anything. I’ll probably get booted for this.

I don’t believe your comments are out of order here; One cannot have a more personal relationship with Jesus, when one is in Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity presence. One cannot have a more personal relationship with Jesus, when God the Spirit lives within our hearts and minds in the graces and mercy administered from Jesus sacramental life within Catholics. One cannot have a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ when Jesus promises to us who follow his commandments and give testimony to his teachings, Jesus will always be with us, and will never leave or forsake us. This is revealed in sacred scripture which is revealed alive and living in the practice of the Apostolic sacred Traditions handed down to us since the resurrection.

If you know of a more personal relationship than his body, blood, soul and divinity true presence before his body in His Church, then by all means please share here?

Peace be with you

 

[JonNC]

I think understand. So the teachings of the LC-MS Lutheran church best match your beliefs of what Jesus taught? Correct me if I am wrong, but what it seems to come down to, for you, is not what any one church teaches but rather, whether or not the teachings of any one church properly conform to your expectations of what Jesus taught, which ultimately makes you, as opposed to any one church, the final authority for settling and determining doctrinal matters of faith, and I ask with the utmost respect?

Hi Joe,
Wouldn’t you say, at least to a degree, that this is why you chose to leave Lutheranism for the Catholic Church? You saw what you believed and now espouse in the Catholic Church the one true Church in terms of doctrine and founding (by how you define “Church”).

As you know, my main complaint about the Catholic Church is ecclesiastical, especially the power and primacy of the Pope, and I base that on what I see as the historical understanding his role. That may not be as big a thing as soteriology, but for me to be Catholic, wouldn’t you expect me to be fully Catholic before I swim?

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Joe,
Wouldn’t you say, at least to a degree, that this is why you chose to leave Lutheranism for the Catholic Church? You saw what you believed and now espouse in the Catholic Church the one true Church in terms of doctrine and founding (by how you define “Church”).

As you know, my main complaint about the Catholic Church is ecclesiastical, especially the power and primacy of the Pope, and I base that on what I see as the historical understanding his role. That may not be as big a thing as soteriology, but for me to be Catholic, wouldn’t you expect me to be fully Catholic before I swim?

Jon

I think, Jon, what would be required of you would be obedience. Once you have used faith and reason to discern where Christ’s Body is, then you give the assent of faith to His teachings.

Those who declare, “Jesus wouldn’t* *” in contrast to the teachings of Christ as proclaimed by the CC are creating a false Jesus in their own image and likeness, rather than conforming their image to Christ’s.

 

[Warrior1979]

This is another common objection to Catholicism. Do you have photos of past loved ones or living loved ones hanging on the walls of your home? Do you worship them? I hope not? You see our Catholic Saints are living they are not dead, they remain in the body of Christ, because Christ lives. When these saints lived they did not have cameras or video, so they created images of them in art or statues. “Pictures paint a thousand words”.

The veneration you might see is not paid to the statue, but to heaven when the Saints and Angels are in the presence of God. Would you venerate (pay honor or respect) to the president of the U.S, a Royal king or queen of a country, a supreme Court judge? There is no difference here.

The posture being presented by the Catholic is always venerable before our King of King and Lord of Lords in the company with His Saints and Angels. Here are 3 biblical verses that support the Catholic doctrine in the “communion of Saints”.

I don’t think anyone has a problem with veneration. The problem comes in when taking it to the next level: praying to saints. I personally see no reason to do so; praying directly to God suffices.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t think anyone has a problem with veneration. The problem comes in when taking it to the next level: praying to saints. I personally see no reason to do so; praying directly to God suffices.

For one Catholics do not pray to the saints from a false pretense as if they are separated from God, and alone are gods. I don’t follow your logic here.

When the rich man prayed to Abraham for assistance, and asked for a favor from the poor man to dip his finger and give him a taste of water, was the rich man worshipping Abraham? asking the saints in heaven to pray for us, you call it praying to a saint? What you don’t realize is that when a Catholic prays before heaven, and while he/she is there in prayer, are at liberty to ask a heavenly saint or angel for assistance in prayer from humility, reverence and charity before God’s throne room.

Do you pay reverence to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords presence in His throne room, while the blessed Virgin Mary, the Kings Mother, along with his friends the saints and angels? Do you kneel before the name of Jesus on earth as the bible teaches, when every knee shall bow in heaven, on earth and under the earth before the name of Jesus?

The problem I have with your principle is that it has no biblical basis; For one no one can go before God and live;

No one can go before the Father except through Jesus (see John 14:6).

When you pray to God do you have Jesus body, blood soul and divinity in your presence? Because Jesus resurrected with his flesh, he is not a ghost or spirit.

The biblical principle of intercessory prayer by the (saints) holy ones on earth and the (saints) in heaven, the holy ones in light is a 2000 year old Apostolic Catholic practice and there is no difference of me asking you to pray for me. The holy ones in light are not dead, they are more alive in Christ than you and me.

Here is St. Paul, 1Colossians 1: Colossians 1:3 We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,** when we pray for you**, 4 for we have heard of **your faith in Christ Jesus and the love that you have for all the holy ones 5 because of the hope reserved for you in heaven…9 Therefore, from the day we heard this, we do not cease praying for you **and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding
12 giving thanks to the Father, **who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light. **
13 He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, 27 to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.

I may be mistake here, but you may be confusing the liturgical prayer of the Church with personal devotion to ones saint. Do you know the biblical practices between when God’s people worship along with the saints and angels in prayer, and one in communion with the Saints?

Can you be more specific on what you mean to define that “praying to the saints” is not biblical.

 

[friendster324]

I do have to say that with the exception of the people on this forum, I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk about reading the Bible, let alone quote a Bible verse except the Peter the Pope verse in Matthew. I’ve never known a Catholic who believes that the Eucharist is transformed in some way to the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ. When I’ve tried to get them to clarify that for me they usually just say, “I don’t know, that’s just what they tell us”. I’ve heard that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the Saints and icons and what-not, but it’s not what I actually SEE in practice. I’ve SEEN people bowing down in front of a statue of Mary. I guess that’s just veneration. I don’t know the difference. I have a Bible, I read it daily and it all seems pretty clear to me (except maybe the book of Revelation) and I don’t have problems understanding it. I’ve read the Catholic Bible too, and don’t have any problems understanding that either. I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night??? Seriously? I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there!
Now either I’ve had the WORST examples of Catholic friends on the planet, or there’s a whole lot of misconception within the church as well as outside of it.

I, too, don’t do a lot of replying on this forum because normally someone beats me to posting my thoughts about stuff. But seeing as nobody has in regards to your post, I figured I’d come out of hiding.

To the point, I think most faithful Catholics would agree with your sentiments on the disconnect between what the church teaches and how some of its followers live their lives. It is a big problem in some areas. It’s one of the reasons I am pursuing a career in Catholic education. I also think it is an issue that a lot of people in leadership positions in the Church are trying to address. But the thing to note is that the validity of the Church should not be sought in its followers. We are all sinners. No one can follow the teachings of Jesus perfectly. The problems you see are not problems with the teachings necessarily but problems with how they are being taught.

 

[PRmerger]

I personally see no reason to do so; praying directly to God suffices.

Fair enough.

I’m wondering, though, if you’ve ever asked someone to pray for you or a loved one? Perhaps your mom was undergoing surgery? Or your spouse was flying in inclement weather?

If so, why didn’t you just pray directly to God–does it not suffice?

 

[hn160]

I think understand. So the teachings of the LC-MS Lutheran church best match your beliefs of what Jesus taught? Correct me if I am wrong, but what it seems to come down to, for you, is not what any one church teaches but rather, whether or not the teachings of any one church properly conform to your expectations of what Jesus taught, which ultimately makes you, as opposed to any one church, the final authority for settling and determining doctrinal matters of faith, and I ask with the utmost respect?

I have been busy watching hockey.
why convert if you do not accept the seven Sacraments of the RCC. I accept three that the Lutheran Church has: Confession and Absolution, Baptism and the Eucharist.
Lutheran definition of a Sacrament is: 1. instituted by God; 2. in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element; 3. and by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sin earned by Christ.
If something isn’t in Scripture and not commanded by God, then it shouldn’t be done except for good order in the Church. As far as tradition goes, some church fathers said one thing and others said the opposite.
I am not anti-Catholic, I have allot of respect for Pope Benedict for his knowledge of Luther.

 

[PRmerger]

I have been busy watching hockey.
why convert if you do not accept the seven Sacraments of the RCC. I accept three that the Lutheran Church has: Confession and Absolution, Baptism and the Eucharist.
Lutheran definition of a Sacrament is: 1. instituted by God; 2. in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element; 3. and by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sin earned by Christ.
If something isn’t in Scripture and not commanded by God, then it shouldn’t be done except for good order in the Church. As far as tradition goes, some church fathers said one thing and others said the opposite.
I am not anti-Catholic, I have allot of respect for Pope Benedict for his knowledge of Luther.

Is marriage not considered a sacrament in the Lutheran Church?

 

[PRmerger]

IAs far as tradition goes, some church fathers said one thing and others said the opposite.

I think you are not understanding the what Catholics believe is Sacred Tradition. It has less to do with “some church fathers” and more to do with the teaching of the Apostles preserved by the power of the Holy Spirit for His Body, the Church.

 

[hn160]

Is marriage not considered a sacrament in the Lutheran Church?

No, because it does not convey the forgiveness of sins.

 

[PRmerger]

No, because it does not convey the forgiveness of sins.

What Bible verse proclaims that a sacrament must “convey the forgiveness of sins”?

This is a concept I’d not heard before. Interesting.

 

[pablope]

I don’t think anyone has a problem with veneration. The problem comes in when taking it to the next level: praying to saints. I personally see no reason to do so; praying directly to God suffices.

Then, explain, why did God tell Job’s friends to go through Job…

Job 42:

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And it came to pass after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.
8
Now, therefore, take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up a holocaust for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you; for his prayer I will accept, not to punish you severely. For you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job.”
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Then Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite, went and did as the LORD had commanded them. And the LORD accepted the intercession of Job.
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Also, the LORD restored the prosperity of Job, after he had prayed for his friends; the LORD even gave to Job twice as much as he had before.

 

[GraceSofia]

I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night??? Seriously?

Um, no. Confession is for after the sin is committed. You cannot “confess” a sin that you might do in the future. No priest would hear such a confession.

I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there!
Now either I’ve had the WORST examples of Catholic friends on the planet, or there’s a whole lot of misconception within the church as well as outside of it. I’ve read the posts that bash the “fundies”, or “born agains” as if that’s something bad, or just plain Protestant and yet Pope John Paul told the audience in Denver that NOBODY would go to heaven unless they did what John 3:3 says. By the way, that verse says you must be born again.

Are Catholics Born Again?
Yes, Catholics are born again.

 

[Warrior1979]

Can you be more specific on what you mean to define that “praying to the saints” is not biblical.

FWIW, I don’t equate “praying to the saints” with worship.

Fair enough.

I’m wondering, though, if you’ve ever asked someone to pray for you or a loved one? Perhaps your mom was undergoing surgery? Or your spouse was flying in inclement weather?

No. If they wish to pray on their own, they are certainly free to do so.

If so, why didn’t you just pray directly to God–does it not suffice?

God is Almighty and Omnipotent. Praying to God suffices.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

God is Almighty and Omnipotent. Praying to God suffices.

I don’t think, any Catholic would argue a simple statement “praying to God suffices”.

What the saints have in common with our prayers to God both liturgical and private devotions deals with communion with God.

Defining the biblical revelation that the Church is the body of Christ, and many members, and if one member hurts we all hurt (this is when we ask our saints to pray for us, just as Paul practiced), when one member is bless’d we all rejoice, just as the angels rejoice over one sinner who repents.

If your “praying to God suffices” in isolation? It would appear you remove yourself outside of the body of Christ.

For the family of God is in heaven and on earth, here is scripture revelations of this family communion. Notice Pauls posture when he prays before God with the heavenly family of God and on earth.

EPHESIANS 3: 14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,

18 **may have strength to comprehend with all the holy ones **what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

This scripture summarizes the Catholic faith as being many members concerned for one another;

1 Corinthians 12: 25 **so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. 26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. **

EPHESIANS 4: 4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 1: 18** He is the head of the body, the church.** 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, **making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven. **24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of **Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, **

The reason we pray to God in heaven with His saints present with him, is because Catholics believe the bible to be true and practice here;

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Peace be with you

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;7887836]I think, Jon, what would be required of you would be obedience. Once you have used faith and reason to discern where Christ’s Body is, then you give the assent of faith to His teachings.

Oh, I have no doubt, my friend, that Christ’s body is present where I am, just as He is where you are.

Those who declare, “Jesus wouldn’t* *” in contrast to the teachings of Christ as proclaimed by the CC are creating a false Jesus in their own image and likeness, rather than conforming their image to Christ’s.

Of course, you believe with all honesty that Christ’s teachings are truly proclaimed in the CC. And I believe that, in large part, it is. I also believe His teachings are rightly proclaimed in the Lutheran Church.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

No. If they wish to pray on their own, they are certainly free to do so.

This is certainly your choice, Warrior. St. Paul asked others to pray for him. Don’t know why it’s good enough for Paul, but not for you.

To not avail yourself of the powerful prayers of “warriors” who would be willing to pray your wife into recovery or your daughter into Notre Dame is, in a word, a shame. :sad_yes:

God has given us, as Blaise Pascal proffers, the dignity of causality, in providing efficacy to our prayers for others.

Scripture, of course, attests to this, in that the prayers of a righteous man avails him much.

In fact, to not ask others to pray for you is going against the commands of Scripture.

God is Almighty and Omnipotent. Praying to God suffices.

As with most Catholic things, it’s not either/or but both/and. God alone suffices, of course. But the communion of saints does not detract from God alone. Indeed, it perfects it.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, I have no doubt, my friend, that Christ’s body is present where I am, just as He is where you are.

What do you mean by this, Jon? That you feel his spirit in your church services?

Of course, you believe with all honesty that Christ’s teachings are truly proclaimed in the CC. And I believe that, in large part, it is.

But I submit to you, Jon, that if the Lutheran Church is not proclaiming anything that you find unpalatable, then you are in the wrong church.