Reasons not to be Catholic?

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Hey Bettan89, how are you doing?
I’ve seen a lot of sites on the Internet arguing why one should not become a Catholic. But then I’ve never seen what they think you should be instead. To me it seems like if the Catholic church is not the Church founded by Christ, then the Truth has not been preserved in any church. Because historically, the Catholic church is the first church, and everyone else have broken up from this one, at least that’s my knowledge. So if I seek to find The Church and The Truth, and I for some reason have found the Catholic church not to be the One, then whitch church should I go to??
You make a very good point. However, I doubt you will get a direct answer to the question: which church should I go to? Scripture does suggest that Jesus did in fact provide for the continuing transmission of the doctrinal truth? In the history of protestant apologetics, great emphasis is placed on the supposed “errors” of Catholicism to buttress the practice of Sola scriptura, but the one question almost never asked is: where is the reformed church (practicing sola scriptura) - where doctrinal truth continues to be disseminated? :confused: Protestant apologist insists that Sola Scriptura is an article of faith and by its own criteria, articles of faith, such as SS must be established by divine revelation, just as the 27 books of the New Testament were established by divine revelation via the Catholic church, forever guided by the Holy spirit, which of course is not the case regarding the practice of Sola scriptura. The Catholic position has always been that Jesus did in fact give explicit instructions concerning the transmission of the Christian faith, as can be readily seen in sacred scripture, and therefore we are not left to inferences, deductions, and private judgment/interpretation of each and every sola scriptura proponent,as each and every sola scriptura proponent is moved by the Holy Spirit. It seems fairly simple: Scripture tells us that Jesus gave us His Church, and promised to be with His church forever, guiding His church into all truth until the end of time. Find that historical church and you will have found the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth. 👍
 
Hey Jon, hope you had a great Easter brother! 🙂
JonNC;7791893]Welcome to CAF. As a Lutheran, you know that we understand the Church to be the congregation of believers, where the word is preached and the sacraments are administered.
Also, I think the Orthodox here will say that the CC broke away from the one true Church.
Therefore, to answer your question, as a Lutheran, I would say prayerfully consider where the Holy Spirit leads you to be. That might well be the Catholic Church, and if it is, then I believe you will be blessed in word and sacrament there.
Jon, if the Church universal, is the congregation of believers, regardless of denomination, where the word is preached then shouldn’t the sacraments, as well. be administered in the church universal, comprised of the congregation of believers, regardless of denomination?

If the Sacraments are not embraced by one particular church, are the members of that one particular church considered members of another church that does in fact embrace the Sacraments? I mean, are the members of these 2 separate churches considered the united congregation of believers even though one church sees no need for the Sacraments while another church does see a need for the Sacraments? :confused:
 
I don’t believe any religion/denomination is the “true” one.
So there are many divided churches where truth can be found, or, are you suggesting that truth, regarding certain things, eg the Eucharist, is unknowable?
 
Hi Rawb…🙂
So why am I not Catholic any longer? Because I found Christ’s True Church, a modern, historical, spiritual, rational, sin-loathing yet compassionate Church, preserved by the Holy Spirit from any innovation for 2,000 Years. May we all have a blessed Pascha.
I am happy for you. 🙂 The beautiful thing is the fact that the holy Eucharist can be found in both the CC and the EOC. I was just wondering: If the CC is not a modern, historical church preserved by the Holy Spirit from any innovation for 2,000 Years, and was not founded by Jesus Christ, then who founded the CC and when? That would certainly help me make the same move you made to the EOC! :confused: I too, as a former protestant, considered the EOC…
 
Logically the only reason why I would stop attending my current fellowship and start attending another one would be if I were to believe the new one is superior to the existing one. That I think would be the case for anybody who changes one organization for another one.

If I believed that God selects one and only one Christian organization to “bear the Truth” (thereby excluding all other organizations), then of course I would want to be a part of the organization that God favours.

I have absolutely zero reasons to believe that this is actually what God is doing.

This type of question (why aren’t you us) pops up frequently on these forums. If I think about it, I find this type of question a little “off-putting” because I don’t know why one would ask this question outside of the assumption that one’s “us” is superior to the other’s “not us”.
So your answer to post #1 is: It doesn’t matter which church one belongs to for no one church is superior to another, doctrinally speaking, and no one church can claim to teach truth regarding the teachings of Jesus, when conflicts arise regarding any one truth, in the various churches?
 
Logically the only reason why I would stop attending my current fellowship and start attending another one would be if I were to believe the new one is superior to the existing one. That I think would be the case for anybody who changes one organization for another one.
Yes, I agree.
If I believed that God selects one and only one Christian organization to “bear the Truth” (thereby excluding all other organizations), then of course I would want to be a part of the organization that God favours.
I suppose we would all feel this way. However, this is not the model that Jesus presented. On the contrary, He said “I will build my Church”. The Church founded by Christ is not a human organization,but a divine one. Your statement here sounds as if humans started all kinds of organizations, and you present the possibity that God could “favor one”. This view is not consistent with the Scriptures.
I have absolutely zero reasons to believe that this is actually what God is doing.
Yes, it is truly a strawman. Why make it up? I wonder if that comes under 'vain imaginings"?
This type of question (why aren’t you us) pops up frequently on these forums. If I think about it, I find this type of question a little “off-putting” because I don’t know why one would ask this question outside of the assumption that one’s “us” is superior to the other’s “not us”.
My reading of the OP reflects a very sincere individual who is seeking the Truth.

I can understand, with your deficient view of the Church, why it would seem like a superiority contest. However, Jesus only founded One Church, and all who are in Him are members of it. We are also thereby members of one another. THere is no room for superiority and inferiority, as even the Apostle teaches that the weaker parts are to be treated with greater respect.

Obviously, there is a great plurality of faith and practice, and many of them are in direct opposition to each other. We cant all be right. YOu are convinced that where you are is the best place for you. That is what the OP is trying to find also.
 
I suggest: “Reasons to be Christian”

I think we need to graciously accept that we have some different beliefs, united however by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Of course, you think Protestants are misinformed about somethings, and I respect your belief; that’s why you are Catholic. And I believe Roman Catholics are misinformed about somethings, Nobody should be offended about that; if I thought the Catholic Church was right about everything, I would of course convert to Catholicism.

The holy catholic church of Christ is under all out assault in this secular, pagan world. We should be united in essentials with our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we can’t agree about everything.
 
I suggest: “Reasons to be Christian”

I think we need to graciously accept that we have some different beliefs, united however by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Of course, you think Protestants are misinformed about somethings, and I respect your belief; that’s why you are Catholic. And I believe Roman Catholics are misinformed about somethings, Nobody should be offended about that; if I thought the Catholic Church was right about everything, I would of course convert to Catholicism.

The holy catholic church of Christ is under all out assault in this secular, pagan world. We should be united in essentials with our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we can’t agree about everything.
I agree. Who gets to decide what the “essentials” are, and what if we can’t agree? 😃
 
So your answer to post #1 is: It doesn’t matter which church one belongs to for no one church is superior to another, doctrinally speaking, and no one church can claim to teach truth regarding the teachings of Jesus, when conflicts arise regarding any one truth, in the various churches?
Umm…please explain from the wording of the my original post as to how it must be interpreted in this way. Otherwise I --really do not appreciate-- you putting words in my mouth and claiming to speak for me.
 
There are many reasons I stepped away from being Catholic. I am not trying to be offensive, but merely clearly post an honest answer to the thread.

The Pope claims the place and names that belong to God alone (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, III para. 18).

God, the Father: He claims he is “The Holy Father”. This is the unique name of God the Father.

John 17:11 “And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” — ‘Thine own name!’ It is God’s name alone - it cannot belong to anyone else.

Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

God, the Son: He claims he is “The Head of the Church”. This title belongs to Christ alone.

Colossians 1:18 “And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

God, the Holy Spirit: He claims he is “The Vicar of Christ”. This is the office of the Holy Spirit alone.

John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
The Pope even takes the very name of God. The New York Catechism calls the Pope, “the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God Himself on earth.” THE TRINITY OF GOD IS USURPED.

The Bible states, “There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Timothy 2:5,6).

Rome claims that in her masses she can repeat the sacrifice of the cross and change the wafer and wine into the very body and very blood of Christ. She claims that she perpetuates the sacrifice of the cross (Eucharisticum Mysterium, Intro. C, 1). Again, “In the sacrifice of the Mass our Lord is immolated” [killed as a victim] (Ibid, C, 2).

Christ cried on the cross, “It is finished” John 19:30.

Hebrews 9:25,26 “Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Hebrews 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Rome has elevated Mary to the place of mediation. John Paul II states that “in Mary is effected the reconciliation of God with humanity” (On Reconciliation and Penance. St. Paul Editions, p. 139).

It is idolatrous and an insult to our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Church of Rome cannot establish her false claims that she alone is the preserver of God’s Word and the maintainer of the Truths of the same. Rome is far from being a believer in the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice.

Her rejection of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice has been brought about by the many additions she has made to Holy Scripture.

The command and warning of God is crystal clear that the Bible must not be added to.

Deuteronomy 4:2 “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”

Deuteronomy 12:32 “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”

Proverbs 30:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

Jeremiah 23:28 “He that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.”

Revelation 22:18 “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.”

Now the Church of Rome has been found out to be a liar and has had added to it the plagues of the Apocalypse – as God stated in Proverbs 30:6 and Revelation 22:18 – by adding to God’s Word.

Rome adds to God’s Word by adding more books to the Canonical Scriptures, known as the Apocryphal Books. These books were never received by the Jewish Church (Romans 3:2); they were never quoted by Christ; they were rejected by the Christian Fathers; and they are self-evidently not inspired. The writer apologises for defects (2 Maccabees 15:39) and one seemingly commands suicide. They are no part of Holy Scripture; yet, they were added into the Canon by the Church of Rome to make up Rome’s Bible.

Rome also adds to the Bible apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions. Oral tradition evolved into written tradition and the unreliability of oral tradition is exposed in John 21:22,23.

Rome also adds that the interpretation of Scripture must have the “unanimous consent of the fathers”. Alas the fathers were far from being unanimous. They contradicted themselves and rarely consented. In fact, strange to relate Gregory the Great Bishop of Rome stated that the Bishop who claimed to be the Universal Bishop is the forerunner of the Antichrist (Gregory Reqisto. Epist. 1.b. v11. Ind. Is epis 33 ed Benet Domisitos).
Christ warned against tradition and stated, “Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:3,6,9).
 
John Paul II states “It would be foolish and presumptuous … to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament” of penance (On Reconciliation and Penance p.115).

He further insists that the individual confession to a priest to receive absolution from him “constitutes the only ordinary way in which the faithful who are conscious of serious sin are reconciled to God” (Ibid, p.132).

The Bible shows us that the way to true remission of sins is clearly contrary to that of the way of Popes, earthly priests, absolutions, and penances:

Ezra 10:11 “Make confession unto the Lord God.”

Psalm 32:5 “I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.”

Matthew 11:28 “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

The Lord Jesus never put any earthly priest or Pope between Himself and the sinner.

Rome has put her curse on the Bible way of salvation. “If any man says that it is by the righteousness of Christ itself that men are formally justified – let him be accursed” (Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 10).

“Sins must be expiated. This must be done in this earth through the sorrows, miseries, and trials of this life and above all through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments of purifying punishments” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina, I para. 2).

Rome thereby removes all assurances a sinner may hope to receive of their eternal salvation. However, the Bible paints for us a very different picture in which “the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives.”

1 Corinthians 1:30 “Jesus Christ is made unto us … righteousness.”

Romans 5:18 “By the obedience of one (Our Lord Himself) shall many be made righteous.”

1 John 1:7 “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Purgatory is not found in the Bible. There is no future wrath for justified sinners.

Romans 5:9 “Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

You can be saved now and have full assurance of faith in the certainty that you know you have eternal life. You require no priest but Christ alone (Hebrews 4:15). You require no sacrifice but Christ alone (1 John 1:7). You require no mediator but Christ alone (1 Timothy 2:5).

The Pope’s “bad news” points you to Purgatory – a non-existent place! The Lord Jesus Christ’s good news (or gospel) points you to Paradise by simple faith in Himself. Good news indeed!

Remember what Peter said in Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

There are many other reasons as well, Jesus telling us to call no man “Father”, yet they are all called that, eliminating the 2nd Commandment for their idol worship, pope worship, Mary worship, saint worship, host worship…Peter himself preached against the papacy in 1 Pet 5:3, which teaches the opposite of what the pope is,… again, not trying to offend, just speaking the truth of why I an not catholic anymore.
 
Yes, it is truly a strawman. Why make it up? I wonder if that comes under 'vain imaginings"?
I am not sure what you are saying.

The bottom line question in my mind is always “What is God doing today, what is He doing in my life”.

So when the Catholic proposes that "Today there is one and only one Christian organization (theirs) that:
(1) God is giving special graces to (in particular the grace never to be incorrect on matters of doctrine (when leader of organization speaks ex cathedra)
(2) There is no salvation outside of this particular organization.

.the bottom line question in my mind is “well is this really what God is doing today”.
 
(2) There is no salvation outside of this particular organization.
There are Catholics that believe this… but I don’t think (though I could be wrong) that the Catholic Church teaches/believes this.

Also, as someone who’s learning and intending to convert I will say that those who I’ve told who object to it and try to give me reasons why I shouldn’t convert tell me things they THINK Catholicism teaches without really knowing what it does teach. The biggest one being “they worship Mary and the saints” from everything that I’ve learned when we address Mary or the Saints we are asking them to pray for us to accompany our own prayers to God. What’s wrong with asking for more prayers?
 
There are Catholics that believe this… but I don’t think (though I could be wrong) that the Catholic Church teaches/believes this.

Also, as someone who’s learning and intending to convert I will say that those who I’ve told who object to it and try to give me reasons why I shouldn’t convert tell me things they THINK Catholicism teaches without really knowing what it does teach. The biggest one being “they worship Mary and the saints” from everything that I’ve learned when we address Mary or the Saints we are asking them to pray for us to accompany our own prayers to God. What’s wrong with asking for more prayers?
This is Catholic dogma. Pardon my Latin but it is something like “Extra ecclesia nulla salus”.

The issue (that Catholics disagree) is how this is to be interpreted, broadly or narrowly. Vatican II suggests a broad interpretation, but it does not negate it. And there are Catholics that claim Vatican II does not mean what it --appears-- (to me anyway) to mean.
 
This is Catholic dogma. Pardon my Latin but it is something like “Extra ecclesia nulla salus”.

The issue (that Catholics disagree) is how this is to be interpreted, broadly or narrowly. Vatican II suggests a broad interpretation, but it does not negate it. And there are Catholics that claim Vatican II does not mean what it --appears-- (to me anyway) to mean.
Either way the CC maintains that she is the one true Church-the one Christ established and the one He continues to sustain with the correct teaching of the Gospel. There’s nothing wrong…with being right. 🙂 We can all cooperate where we agree but not compromise where essentials come into question.
 
I suggest: “Reasons to be Christian”

I think we need to graciously accept that we have some different beliefs, united however by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Of course, you think Protestants are misinformed about somethings, and I respect your belief; that’s why you are Catholic. And I believe Roman Catholics are misinformed about somethings, Nobody should be offended about that; if I thought the Catholic Church was right about everything, I would of course convert to Catholicism.

The holy catholic church of Christ is under all out assault in this secular, pagan world. We should be united in essentials with our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we can’t agree about everything.
Amen
 
So there are many divided churches where truth can be found, or, are you suggesting that truth, regarding certain things, eg the Eucharist, is unknowable?
Actually neither. Truth is knowable, however there are few issues. In short:

Truth (Ultimate Reality, Divinity) is Infinite.
Man is, most definitely finite.

The finite can never fully understand the Infinite, but we can grasp parts of it.

What each religion/denomination is doing is that they focus on whatever part of Divinity they have grasped. I would say this, however. Of the Christian denominations, I’d say that Catholicism (Roman and Eastern) has “it” “most right”.

But the Hindus, Buddhist, Taoists, Pagans, Christians, Muslims, Animists, etc, are all seeing Truth as they understand it, from whatever perspective their history, culture, geography, etc allows.
 
I’ve seen a lot of sites on the Internet arguing why one should not become a Catholic. But then I’ve never seen what they think you should be instead. To me it seems like if the Catholic church is not the Church founded by Christ, then the Truth has not been preserved in any church. Because historically, the Catholic church is the first church, and everyone else have broken up from this one, at least that’s my knowledge. So if I seek to find The Church and The Truth, and I for some reason have found the Catholic church not to be the One, then whitch church should I go to??

Therefore I wonder if anyone who is not a Catholic or anyone who has converted from the Catholic church to another church could tell me which church you believe is the true one? Because I strongly want to believe that Christ has preserved His Truth along history, and if the Catholic church bears the Truth, then I see no reasons why one should not belong to it.

A lot of people make their choice of church based on which church best suits their beliefs and interests. But IF their is a Truth, then does it really matter what I think? I would rather obey to the Truth of the Lord than seeking the church with the best priest, songs or people.
for me, I was catholic and there are many reasons why I left.

The church I belong too now is led by a pastor who is married (by the way also former catholic ) and is very passionate about following our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Lord has opened my eyes to many things I did not see while being catholic.

for 1, look at my “why cant priests marry” thread

If I have dreams of pastoring a church, It could not be a catholic church for the reason that the church requires an oath of celibacy to be given by their single priests … an oath I would not be willing to give.

Peter was married. whether or not before he became a follower of Christ is irrelevant. Marriage did not prevent him from being a great leader of the church.
 
I guess Jesus wasted his time teaching apostles and dying on the cross then.
Or, the early followers of Jesus were attempting to put meaning to a horrible, senseless death at the hands of the religious and political power structures of the day. 🙂
 
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