Reasons not to be Catholic?

[namaste8715]

I think it often does boil down to an authority problem. Mankind still suffers from the same hubris he did in the garden of Eden. He thinks that he can determine for himself what is best for him without the commandment of God.

I have been mulling over this post since last night:

I agree with you, but I suspect for very different reasons.

No well catechized Catholic will ever tell you that anyone is “damned to hell”. This is against the Teachings of the Apostles that are infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Someone may tell you that the road to hell is paved with our desires to please ourselves, but at the same time, that one should be in fervent prayer for you that you get on a different road.

Of course we have different reasons - that is why you are Catholic and I am not. Sorry about the ‘damned to Hell’ comment… Perhaps Sarcasm is the 11th commandment for Episcopalians (also sarcastic). I thought the road to Hell is paved with good intentions… so maybe I’m screwed either way.

The Bible was produced by the Catholic Church. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. When one takes a literary work and removes it from the context in which it was written one loses the ability to understand the meaning properly. It is like reading Shakespeare with no histoirical context.

The first time I read Shakespeare, I had no historical context, and enjoyed it anyway (I was probably 9 or 10 when I read Julius Caesar, and I was hooked.

Catholics believe that Scripture is part of the revelation by God of Himself to mankind. No human creature has a “right” to God’s revelation. On the contrary, if we all got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit. He has revealed Himself to us because of his love, and by grace, we can receive His disclosrue of Himself. This is to be done with humility adn obedience, not an emphasis on our “rights”, which we only have through His Mercy and the blood of His son.

**I believe we all have a right to understand the Bible on our own terms. It’s really OK if we disagree on this. **

Great!

**Back at ya buddy. **

I mean, great that you are here with your disagreement. Let’s start a new thread for every one!

A comforting platitude that is a function of the culture of relativism in which we live. We have all been contaminated by it to one degree or another. I used to think this too.

The Catholic Church does not fobid marriage to anyone.

Holy Orders are also not a “right” but a privilege and a gift. Does the clay say unto the Potter, why hast thou made me thus?

**I also believe it’s the clay’s right to ask the Potter what he was thinking when he was sculpted into a creation. I personally think priests should be allowed to be married and still be priests. Again, it’s really OK to differ here. It’s one of the reasons I’m not a Catholic and you are. **

In the end I think it boils down to whether we see ourselves as creatures, obligated to serve our Creator,or if we believe that we should be served.

I believe I should serve my Creator, and that I DO serve my creator, but I also believe that my church should serve me just as much as I serve IT.

For most people, the desire for religious experience is one which will best suit themselves.

I am pretty certain that namaste is talking about the variations of personality, and personal preferences for entertainment, music styles, etc. Whether the worship is contempletive or loud and boisterious, etc.

I used to think this way, and left the faith for a long time, seeking an ecclesial community that would meet my emotional needs. I often would say that I was not being “fed” in the CC,

Did God command that things should be done a certain way, or not? If He has designed worship according to what He beleives we need, who are we to change it?

**We are humans! It’s a glorious thing! We can change things. Free will! I, by the way, don’t like boisterous music or loud worship. **

I look back on the worship that was proscribed for Israel, and the only time I see anyone saying they wanted to redesign it to suit themselves was met by the earth opening and swallowing up the rebellious.

No, I take that back, some of the rebellious were put to the knife.

**
That would be where the damning to Hell comes in to play, I guess…**

This, then, is an improvement, LIT. It means that you have made your decision to abandon the faith of your baptism based on actual facts of what the Church teaches, however, misguided, it is not a decision made based upon lies you have been told about what Catholics believe (like that they should not read their bibles).

Just remember, LIT, that all of Christ’s baptized faithful are one in communion with Him.

Peace to all of you!

 

[PRmerger]

Just for clarification, my issue is not praying “for” others, it’s praying “through” others. We’re dealing with an omnipotent being, and I just simply don’t see the point when asking God for something…God Himself can handle it.

It is a gift that God has given us to be able to pray for others; God gives us the dignity of actually causing good, by our offering up a prayer/work/sacrifice for the sake of another’s intention. ** It is a supreme privilege we’ve been given as Christians to be able to change the course of someone’s destiny by our actions/prayers/sacrifices**. Just like our physical efforts produce food on our table for our families–God does not simply magically make the food appear on our plates–our spiritual efforts also produce fruit in the world.

Blaise Pascal addressed this as the “dignity of causality”. “If you say that we should not pray because God already knows our needs, then you must say that we should not farm or eat or read for the same reason. God lets us really cause events and really lets us make a difference not only by physical work but also by spiritual work.”

 

[PRmerger]

With that said, I do recognize the communal aspects of communal prayer activity.

So then it seems that your objection is not to asking others to pray for us, but to something else regarding the Catholic teaching on praying to saints?

Is it that you don’t believe they can hear us?

Or do you construe it as idolatry?

 

[hn160]

I think it often does boil down to an authority problem. Mankind still suffers from the same hubris he did in the garden of Eden. He thinks that he can determine for himself what is best for him without the commandment of God.

I have been mulling over this post since last night:

I agree with you, but I suspect for very different reasons.

No well catechized Catholic will ever tell you that anyone is “damned to hell”. This is against the Teachings of the Apostles that are infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Someone may tell you that the road to hell is paved with our desires to please ourselves, but at the same time, that one should be in fervent prayer for you that you get on a different road.

The Bible was produced by the Catholic Church. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. When one takes a literary work and removes it from the context in which it was written one loses the ability to understand the meaning properly. It is like reading Shakespeare with no histoirical context.

Catholics believe that Scripture is part of the revelation by God of Himself to mankind. No human creature has a “right” to God’s revelation. On the contrary, if we all got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit. He has revealed Himself to us because of his love, and by grace, we can receive His disclosrue of Himself. This is to be done with humility adn obedience, not an emphasis on our “rights”, which we only have through His Mercy and the blood of His son.

Great!

I mean, great that you are here with your disagreement. Let’s start a new thread for every one!

A comforting platitude that is a function of the culture of relativism in which we live. We have all been contaminated by it to one degree or another. I used to think this too.

The Catholic Church does not fobid marriage to anyone.

Holy Orders are also not a “right” but a privilege and a gift. Does the clay say unto the Potter, why hast thou made me thus?

In the end I think it boils down to whether we see ourselves as creatures, obligated to serve our Creator,or if we believe that we should be served.

For most people, the desire for religious experience is one which will best suit themselves.

I am pretty certain that namaste is talking about the variations of personality, and personal preferences for entertainment, music styles, etc. Whether the worship is contempletive or loud and boisterious, etc.

I used to think this way, and left the faith for a long time, seeking an ecclesial community that would meet my emotional needs. I often would say that I was not being “fed” in the CC,

Did God command that things should be done a certain way, or not? If He has designed worship according to what He beleives we need, who are we to change it?

I look back on the worship that was proscribed for Israel, and the only time I see anyone saying they wanted to redesign it to suit themselves was met by the earth opening and swallowing up the rebellious.

No, I take that back, some of the rebellious were put to the knife.

This, then, is an improvement, LIT. It means that you have made your decision to abandon the faith of your baptism based on actual facts of what the Church teaches, however, misguided, it is not a decision made based upon lies you have been told about what Catholics believe (like that they should not read their bibles).

Just curious, What would it hurt if Catholic priests would be allowed to marry? It would certainly help the priest shortage. Are not Orthodox priests allowed to marry.

 

[PRmerger]

Just curious, What would it hurt if Catholic priests would be allowed to marry? It would certainly help the priest shortage. Are not Orthodox priests allowed to marry.

This is interesting, hn. Do you have statistics that show that vocations to the Orthodox priesthood are greater than those of the Catholic priesthood? That is, there is no shortage of Orthodox priests???

 

[Warrior1979]

Is it that you don’t believe they can hear us?

I believe it to be an unnecessary distraction. Why not pray to God directly?

Or do you construe it as idolatry?

No, because it doesn’t involve worship.

 

[hn160]

This is interesting, hn. Do you have statistics that show that vocations to the Orthodox priesthood are greater than those of the Catholic priesthood? That is, there is no shortage of Orthodox priests???

Not really, but maybe some Orthodox could answer that. I know that the LC-MS doesn’t have a shortage of men for pastors, we don’t ordain women.

 

[PRmerger]

Not really, but maybe some Orthodox could answer that.

Then it seems that your comment about married priests solving the priest shortage was shortsighted perhaps?

I know that the LC-MS doesn’t have a shortage of men for pastors, we don’t ordain women.

Could you please cite a source for this, hn? How do you know that there’s no shortage of men for the Lutheran pastorship?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just curious, What would it hurt if Catholic priests would be allowed to marry? It would certainly help the priest shortage. Are not Orthodox priests allowed to marry.

A. It’s a discipline. That means that it could change, if the Holy Spirit (who directed the original guidance to this discipline in the FIRST place) chose.
B. What priest shortage? Vocations are up, even in the U.S., and in places like Africa where once the U.S. and Europe sent priests, now THEY are returning the favor and sending priests to those places. . .
C. I have heard Orthodox priests may be married before they profess, but not after. IOW, if you’re an Orthodox priest with a wife, and your wife dies some time later. . .you stay a widower. You do NOT marry again.

Point isn’t who it ‘hurts’ exactly. It is a discipline of the Holy Spirit so obviously we either trust that HE knows what He is doing. . .or we don’t. I prefer to trust Him myself.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe it to be an unnecessary distraction. Why not pray to God directly?

Again, Warrior, it is the same thing as asking a friend to pray for your mom who’s undergoing surgery.

You stated you wouldn’t do that. That’s certainly your right.

But the Scriptures proclaim that this is one way the NT Church prayed.

The Church is not an either/or entity, but a both/and. One does not pray to God or to saints. One can do both. It is our supreme privilege to be able to do this.

Just like your being here posting on the CAFs. Someone might ask, “Why is Warrior not praying to God right now?”

I might respond to this individual, “In each and every act that Warrior is doing, in that it is oriented towards God, he is indeed praying. Thus, his posts are a prayer.”

Similarly, each and every prayer we make to a saint, in that it is oriented towards God, we are indeed praying to God as well.

 

[hn160]

A. It’s a discipline. That means that it could change, if the Holy Spirit (who directed the original guidance to this discipline in the FIRST place) chose.
B. What priest shortage? Vocations are up, even in the U.S., and in places like Africa where once the U.S. and Europe sent priests, now THEY are returning the favor and sending priests to those places. . .
C. I have heard Orthodox priests may be married before they profess, but not after. IOW, if you’re an Orthodox priest with a wife, and your wife dies some time later. . .you stay a widower. You do NOT marry again.

Point isn’t who it ‘hurts’ exactly. It is a discipline of the Holy Spirit so obviously we either trust that HE knows what He is doing. . .or we don’t. I prefer to trust Him myself.

If there isn’t a priest shortage, then why are they closing churches in Pennsylvania and other places? Remember St. Peter was married.

 

[PRmerger]

Just remember, LIT, that all of Christ’s baptized faithful are one in communion with Him.

Peace to all of you!

namaste, could you please not nest your responses? Please see this thread in order to learn how to post so that others can respond to your comments conveniently.

Otherwise, when we attempt to comment on your post, the above is the only thing that shows up.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

If there isn’t a priest shortage, then why are they closing churches in Pennsylvania and other places? Remember St. Peter was married.

There is reason to believe that Peter was a widower by the time of Christ’s ministry.
And St. Paul was celibate.
oh… and Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Just remember, LIT, that all of Christ’s baptized faithful are one in communion with Him.

Logic tells us that this is not so.

Just look at this (nonexhaustive) list of all the different doctrines/teachings that exist in this one “communion.”

Communion is derived from com- “with, together” + unus “oneness, union.”

Clearly, this list below limns the sad nature of this non-union with Christ and His Church:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If there isn’t a priest shortage, then why are they closing churches in Pennsylvania and other places? Remember St. Peter was married.

Perhaps there aren’t enough of the LAITY? If you have two churches in town, one built for 1000 and one for 2000, and there aren’t even 50 Catholics who attend Mass on a regular basis, and one of the churches is getting old, costs a fortune to heat and insure, and would cost millions to renovate, why WOULDN’T you close the one of the two churches that would be less ‘productive’ to the actual laity?

So St. Peter was married. He also MIGHT have been a widower since his wife was not mentioned though his mother-in-law was. So what?

What part of “Discipline from the HOLY SPIRIT” is hard to understand? You’re acting as though the idea of celibate priesthood came out of nowhere (ignoring that Christ Himself never married and that Christ indeed spoke of celibate priests in Scripture) and that God meanwhile is weeping tears because His will is being thwarted by the big bad Catholics. . .

 

[LindaPinda]

I’ve wanted to jump in on conversations like this but always hesitate. I guess I think it’s because it’s pretty pointless. I do have to say that with the exception of the people on this forum, I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk about reading the Bible, let alone quote a Bible verse except the Peter the Pope verse in Matthew. I’ve never known a Catholic who believes that the Eucharist is transformed in some way to the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ. When I’ve tried to get them to clarify that for me they usually just say, “I don’t know, that’s just what they tell us”. I’ve heard that Catholics don’t worship Mary, the Saints and icons and what-not, but it’s not what I actually SEE in practice. I’ve SEEN people bowing down in front of a statue of Mary. I guess that’s just veneration. I don’t know the difference. I have a Bible, I read it daily and it all seems pretty clear to me (except maybe the book of Revelation) and I don’t have problems understanding it. I’ve read the Catholic Bible too, and don’t have any problems understanding that either. I’ve had Catholic friends tell me that they have to hurry up and go to confession before they go to the bar so that they can confess about the fornication they’ll be committing that night??? Seriously? I’ve had Catholic friends tell me they’re giving up Diet Coke for lent cause they like Mt. Dew better. I even knew a Catholic girl in college who protested at an abortion clinic the week after she had had an abortion there!
Now either I’ve had the WORST examples of Catholic friends on the planet, or there’s a whole lot of misconception within the church as well as outside of it. I’ve read the posts that bash the “fundies”, or “born agains” as if that’s something bad, or just plain Protestant and yet Pope John Paul told the audience in Denver that NOBODY would go to heaven unless they did what John 3:3 says. By the way, that verse says you must be born again.
Maybe the OP’s question should be “Reasons not to be Religious”. Perhaps that’s what Jesus was trying to address when he challenged the Pharisees and Sadducees. They certainly were “religious” but didn’t have the ability to see the truth even when He looked them in the eyes. I believe God wants relationship, not religion. He gave us His word to show us what and who He is. If He hadn’t desired a relationship with humans, why would He have bothered showing us how to get to know Him? He gave us His Son so that ALL could be saved. I don’t know, just thinking out loud. Not to start a fight, just more observation than anything. I’ll probably get booted for this.

Dear lazydaisy,
Yes, I’m afraid you have had the WORST example of Catholic friends possible. I am 45 years old, and have been Catholic all my life. I have not always lived out my faith as I should. And yes, there are plenty of folks who subscribe to the label of “Catholic”, though they perhaps should not. But the overwhelming majority of Catholics I have known are beautiful witnesses to life in faith. We read scripture daily, we understand transubstantiation (The bread and wine becoming the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ), we absolutely do not pray to statues, and we do not go to confession prior to committing sin.

I’ve heard the faith vs. religion argument so many times, my head could spin. We can split hairs, but in the end religion is “relationship with God”. Jesus, while pointing out flaws in the living out of the Jewish faith, continued to be a faithful Jew. He practiced His religion as an example to all of us. If He, who is God, could humble Himself to be a man of religion, then who are we to be “above” His example?

And by the way, yes, Pope John Paul II, did proclaim what we Catholics believe; that we must be born again to enter heaven. We believe we are born again through baptism.

There are members of every church on earth who do not live out the precepts of their own faiths. There is nothing more beautiful then experiencing the ones who do. It’s like breathing scripture itself, and nothing is more fulfilling. We should never judge any group of people by the ones who do as they should not. Look to the light, not the darkness if you want to see the truth.

Love,
~Linda

 

[LindaPinda]

Thank you. I was very aware of this, since it is a common issue with Protestants converts (not that I was/am one, but I’ve read the issues).

Just for clarification, my issue is not praying “for” others, it’s praying “through” others. We’re dealing with an omnipotent being, and I just simply don’t see the point when asking God for something…God Himself can handle it. With that said, I do recognize the communal aspects of communal prayer activity.

As far as praying “through” others goes…
Did God “need” go go through Mary to come among us? Did God “need” to work through mere humans to work miracles and bring about salvation history? No. But He chooses to.

Nor do we "have’ to pray through others to speak to God. Yet, we reflect His actions when we do.

Does that fact that God worked through other men to purify our hearts mean that He loves us any less? No. And neither do we love Him less if we ask those who have lived a heroic faith to guide our own.

Asking our friends to help us love God and understand His ways better is a virtuous practice. The example of the lives of saints has always and only strengthened my own faith and led me to love God more and more deeply.

The saints are God’s perfect instruments to teach us that while there are countless ways to express our faith and play our part in the life of faith, we must all still walk that same straight and narrow path.

Love,
~Linda

 

[LIT56RD]

Just remember, LIT, that all of Christ’s baptized faithful are one in communion with Him.

Peace to all of you!

Namaste;
Thanks, I needed that

LIT56RD

 

[LIT56RD]

Logic tells us that this is not so.

Just look at this (nonexhaustive) list of all the different doctrines/teachings that exist in this one “communion.”

Communion is derived from com- “with, together” + unus “oneness, union.”

Clearly, this list below limns the sad nature of this non-union with Christ and His Church:

• Abortion
• Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
• Baptism (sprinkling? Immersion? Infant? Adult? Sacrament? Ordinance? In Jesus’ name only? Using Trinitarian formula?)
• Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves?)
• Church leadership, or no leadership
• Death/Soul Sleep
• Did Jesus use wine or grape juice at the Last Supper
• Divorce
• Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
• Head coverings or no head coverings
• Health and wealth gospel
• Hell, or no hell
• Homosexuality
• Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
• Judge others, don’t judge others
• Lord’s day on Saturday or Sunday
• Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
• Once saved, always saved
• Ordination
• Predestination
• Rapture
• Sola scriptura/private interpretation
• The Eucharist (Communion)
• Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
• Trinity vs. Unitarianism
• What’s a sin, what is not a sin
• When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
• Women pastors, no women pastors

No insult or put down intended, but I am not really understanding what you are trying to point out with this list.

 

[Kenjifujima]

In the end, I think, fundamentally, we see ourselves as creatures bound to serve the Creator, or if we believe that we should be there. WOW US Items Tera Account