Reborn in Christ

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savedbychrist

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Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” (John 3:3) We know that through the Sacrament of Baptism, we are reborn as sons of God. However, is Baptism the only time for one to be reborn?

I am still attending the RCIA and not yet baptised. I learnt about God in my elementary school and high school, but I did not really understand and follow Jesus. It was only until I am losing control of things in life and I submitted to God. It was at that time I truly knew Christ followed Christ and loved Christ. Was I then, reborn at that time? Or I was just awakened by God, but I am still not reborn until my future Baptism?
 
The good thief was not baptized that we know of, yet he was promised Paradise.
My opinion, correct me if wrong, is that God is not limited by rules and definitions. He looks at people’s hearts.

If you are following Christ, you are on the right path. There is a baptism of desire, which means if you die on the way to baptism, it still counts. Baptism is the best way to get started to heaven, but probably not the only way.

A priest would know the answer, perhaps, but I think you were reborn when you submitted to Christ.
 
savedbychrist said:
Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” (John 3:3) We know that through the Sacrament of Baptism, we are reborn as sons of God. However, is Baptism the only time for one to be reborn?

I am still attending the RCIA and not yet baptised. I learnt about God in my elementary school and high school, but I did not really understand and follow Jesus. It was only until I am losing control of things in life and I submitted to God. It was at that time I truly knew Christ followed Christ and loved Christ. Was I then, reborn at that time? Or I was just awakened by God, but I am still not reborn until my future Baptism?
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You can only be born twice, once from your mother’s womb and second when you are baptized as a Christian.
Non-Catholic Christians misuse the term born again because most of them are already baptized which means they were already born again.
 
thistle said:
You can only be born twice, once from your mother’s womb and second when you are baptized as a Christian.
Non-Catholic Christians misuse the term born again because most of them are already baptized which means they were already born again.
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But then, this would mean that all unbaptized people, regardless they believe or not, cannot see the kingdom of heaven; for Jesus has said, you cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless you are reborn. Although believers who die without the Sacramental Baptism will still be baptized by his/her desire at death, this still means that the reborn of baptism only occurs to them when they die. Despite they love God, trust God and follow God, are they still unable to see the kingdom of heaven for their whole life until death?
 
St Thomas Aquinas discusses this subject in his Summa Theologiae, Part III, Question 68, Article 2 and Article 3, and Question 69, Article 1 and Article 4 and Article 5. Note: Focus on what he says in the paragraphs that begin, “I answer that” and “Reply to Objection” in each article.

Basically, if I understand him correctly, if you desire baptism, explicitly or implicitly, as you now do, you are in some sense already ‘born again,’ what he refers to as being mentally incorporated into Christ. When you receive the sacrament of baptism, you will simply be ‘born again’ in a fuller sense, what he refers to as being corporally incorporated into Christ.
 
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savedbychrist said:
Although believers who die without the Sacramental Baptism will still be baptized by his/her desire at death, this still means that the reborn of baptism only occurs to them when they die. Despite they love God, trust God and follow God, are they still unable to see the kingdom of heaven for their whole life until death?
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Can you explain what you mean by this?

Why would a believer in Christ not be baptized, especially if they spend their whole life loving him?
 
thistle said:
Can you explain what you mean by this?

Why would a believer in Christ not be baptized, especially if they spend their whole life loving him?
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There are many examples:
Firstly, some dioceses require long RCIA process before Baptism is approved. This could take 78 weekly courses, normal catechumens need 1.5 years to finish. To catehcumens like me, it can be distressing that despite you experience how much Christ has changed you, you are still not reborn if "only baptism brings reborn)

Secondly, many do not realize the importance of Baptism, or have difficulties to get baptised (some regions, esp. in Africa and SE Asia where priest to believer ratio can be as high as 1:10000, and there are few parishs). They could have lived a devoted life to God, and according to the Beatitudes, the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Yet, they are still seen as not reborn and unable to see the kingdom of heaven, just because they have yet received the Sacrament.

The problem is not on how frequent this situation happens, but how should it be theologically. As long as it is a possible situation, it should be addressed.
 
savedbychrist said:
Firstly, some dioceses require long RCIA process before Baptism is approved. This could take 78 weekly courses, normal catechumens need 1.5 years to finish. To catehcumens like me, it can be distressing that despite you experience how much Christ has changed you, you are still not reborn if "only baptism brings reborn)

Secondly, many do not realize the importance of Baptism, or have difficulties to get baptised (some regions, esp. in Africa and SE Asia where priest to believer ratio can be as high as 1:10000, and there are few parishs). They could have lived a devoted life to God, and according to the Beatitudes, the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Yet, they are still seen as not reborn and unable to see the kingdom of heaven, just because they have yet received the Sacrament.

The problem is not on how frequent this situation happens, but how should it be theologically. As long as it is a possible situation, it should be addressed.
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I’ve never heard of an RCIA program taking that long but even if that were the case why would it be distressing. You can’t just walk in and expect baptism. RCIA is a program that allows you to get to know the Church and the priest gets to know if you are ready.

You are right that baptism is necessary for salvation but if a catechumen died before baptism they would fall under baptism of desire.

I don’t know about Africa but I don’t believe there are any problems being baptised Catholic in south east Asian countries due to low numbers of priests.
 
thistle said:
I’ve never heard of an RCIA program taking that long but even if that were the case why would it be distressing. You can’t just walk in and expect baptism. RCIA is a program that allows you to get to know the Church and the priest gets to know if you are ready.

You are right that baptism is necessary for salvation but if a catechumen died before baptism they would fall under baptism of desire.

I don’t know about Africa but I don’t believe there are any problems being baptised Catholic in south east Asian countries due to low numbers of priests.
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RCIA itself is not distressing, nor is Baptism approval after RCIA unreasonable. But saying that catechumens cannot see the kingdom of heaven no matter how much they experience Christ, is indeed confusing. Christ chose them and they accepted Christ. For we are saved by true faith that the works are in accordance to faith. Why then, is a catechumen with true faith not able to see the kingdom of heaven only until Baptism?

Whilst for SE Asia, many developing countries are indeed facing this problem. There is quite some persecutions to the Church in countries like India, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia, Myanmar and Brunei, and clergy shortage is not a new phenomenon. Even China is having this ratio of about 1:10000.
 
savedbychrist said:
Why then, is a catechumen with true faith not able to see the kingdom of heaven only until Baptism?
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CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
 
thistle said:
CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
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My point was on seeing the time they get to kingdom of heaven. Surely catechumens will still be saved even if they cannot make it to a sacramental baptism, but our faith concerns more than being saved at the moment of death. Christian faith is about love, because God is love. Those who love God would not desire any delay in being crucified and reborn with Christ, and renewed by the Holy Spirit.

These are out of the grace of God. It is only because God is gracious to us sinners, that He let us to be reborn as a new creation. The grace of God should not be bound by human decision on whether one is permitted for Baptism.
 
thistle said:
I don’t understand your point because you are agreeing with CCC 1259!
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My point is, catechumens only see the kingdom of God after their baptism, either by water, desire or blood. Is it then, impossible for them to see it before that? And why?
 
CCC 1259 did not say that the desire for baptism itself is a baptism. It said that the desire for baptism of a catechumen who died before their sacramental baptism can bring the effect of baptism.
 
If you passed away today, because you are in RCIA you would have the right to a Catholic Christian burial – yes you are a Christian. Baptism, however, is special. At the moment you are Baptized you are pure for the first time ever. Not even at your birth were you. And at this moment the Holy Spirit is made present in you. It has not been before this. This is special because it is through the Holy Spirit that we live and grow in our faith. Many people are Baptized but never use the power of the Spirit in them. But if they had not been baptized they couldn’t have that huge grace if they’d wanted to. You need to ask more of your RCIA to teach you about this. It will be everything to you in the future.
 
savedbychrist said:
Jesus said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” (John 3:3)
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Respectfully not to offend opinion only when pondering upon all His Spoken Word to fully come to comprehend this maybe in what is being said in this verse maybe…with the saying… being born from above?🤔

Told it takes place at Baptism? Being born from above , or born in Christ?
Pondering on His Spoken Word, do we need to question and re-examine this more? 🤔
🤔 Reborn in Christ… pondering on this …what does it mean…being born from above?
.🤔.Before Saul became St Paul he was …not baptized…but rather was chosen directly… by our Heavenly Father?..Then>>being born from above.>>>only then did Saul now become St Paul, became a Christian… a believer in Jesus. Being chosen from above… Saul now St Paul only then…now …knowing him…Saul now St Paul made an internal change first by>>changing his heart of stone >>> changing his thoughts>>>changing by repenting, confessing >>changing his ways in Life…Saul now St Paul…choose to end his persecution toward the>>>Apostles and followers of Jesus…because Saul now St Paul was chosen as… being born from above, maybe?
…Saul now St Paul, being chosen, filled with the Holy Spirit…being born from above,… changed his…Way of Life…choosing to serve the Lord, could this be true maybe? 🤔
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Above Saul ( St Paul) did not …know…God…Our Heavenly Father did he? If Saul ( St Paul) did …know …the true God…through…Jesus .teaching…like Apostles, Disciples came to …know… our Creator…His Spoken Word…maybe?
…Titled as… Children of God…1 John 3:29-4…word Jesus used often here repeated many times begins with …If you …know…is it not?
Important …to know …those who …know…they are righteous obey live by.?..

John 6:44 - 46 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: They shall all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me …
Could this mean as …being born from above?

Written … Let those who have ears hear …🤔.

Matthew 16:17 Blessed are you Simeon Peter you did not learn this from any human being. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but by my Father in heaven…
🤔 Could this mean or taken as …being born from above? To …know…him and the one who sent him?

🤔 Not what we choose, but he chooses whom he wills?
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord?
Matthew 22:14 Many are called but few are chosen?
Romans 9:15 He says to Moses I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy…
Along with John saying seems to all flow in context does it?🤔
I knew you before I placed you in your mothers womb…knew you…now he wants us to seek to… know…him?🤔

Peace interesting …being born from above…repent repent…confess ?🙂
 
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KLM789 said:
And at this moment the Holy Spirit is made present in you. It has not been before this.
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But the Bible says, “No one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:3) I believe many catechumens have believed that Jesus is Lord at the first place, that is why they desire to attend and be baptised. Aren’t they then, speaking by the Holy Spirit?
 
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