Reborn in Christ

[KLM789]

Yes, they are speaking in answer to the call of the Spirit for sure. There is an answer we give, and it is manifested in one’s acceptance of Baptism and at that time the Holy Spirit rests on us and is ready to open up the mysteries of faith which are necessary to live the apostolic life, to be a disciple of the Lord, and to understand the deeper meaning of that life. When at Pentacost the Holy Spirit arrived giving many gifts as we’ve read. These gifts are part of what is given and what make it possible for us to evangelize and bring others to Christ. Gifts of preaching, healing, teaching, etc. Once we’re baptized we can ask for these gifts, or we discover what we’ve been given. After Baptism when we pray, it is through this spirit. And didn’t Christ say, ask what you will and it shall be given. Baptism is powerful.

 

[Justin_Mary]

When was St. Paul “born from above”? Was it on the road to Damascus or when Ananias restored his sight, or when Ananias baptized him?

We are born the first time of our mother, when we are born of the flesh & we live for the flesh.

We are reborn when we are born of the spirit & live for the spirit. I think, & I’m no theologian, we are born again when we desire to be baptised…

I understand the Church teaches the Holy Spirit is conferred at baptism & I believe it. But…

When was Peter born again? Was it when he decided to follow Jesus? When he was baptised by John? When God revealed who Jesus is to him?

 

[thistle]

This is true. I also think (but cannot prove) that the three kings at Jesus’ birth received the baptism of desire.

Scripture neither mentions “kings” nor even the number “three”! It simply says wise men.

 

[Dan_Defender]

It has been traditionally assumed so from the three gifts that they offered. Or consider it my opinion, not debating that with you!

 

[savedbychrist]

This is why I am uncertain on whether it is only at the action of being baptised, that we are reborn. Surely Baptism has a significant importance, or else Jesus would not have told the Apostles to preach the Gospel to all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It is only about whether Baptism is equivalent to the time of reborn.

 

[thistle]

It is only about whether Baptism is equivalent to the time of reborn.

Yes it is. Baptism is when you are reborn in Christ.

 

[MT1926]

When was St. Paul “born from above”? Was it on the road to Damascus or when Ananias restored his sight, or when Ananias baptized him?

I would say that it was when he was baptized.

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.”…
17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.

The way I read Acts 9 we can determine that Paul was not born again on the road from Damascus because verse 17 tells us it did not happen yet.

Also, when I read verse 12 it tells us that "Anani′as would come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” No mention of being “born again” or the Holy Spirit in relation to the laying on of hands.

Reading back down to 17 Anani’as lays hands on Paul and tells him “that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” This speaks of a future event that has yet to occur. Now in verse 18 it only mentions Paul regaining his sight but no mention of him, as of yet being filled with the Holy Spirit. Then it says he rose and was baptized. I would argue, because of Jesus words in John 3, we can come to the conclusion that this is the exact moment St. Paul was “born from above”.

We are reborn when we are born of the spirit & live for the spirit. I think, & I’m no theologian, we are born again when we desire to be baptised…

Now don’t get me wrong here I do believe what the Church teaches about Baptism of desire. However, going back to Acts 9. Verse 11 tells us that Saul is praying, I’m sure you would agree he is praying to Jesus. We are also told that he was given a vision from Jesus. I would think a man who was knocked from a horse by Jesus, whom he obviously knew about, a man who was struck blind and then neither ate nor drank but prayed to Jesus for 3 days, obviously desired to know Jesus more (desired to be born again in baptism). Yet Acts tells us this did not occur at the time of what I would call his “desire”.

Just my thoughts.

Let me know if there is something you don’t agree with, I’ve never really thought about your question until now and would love to discuss this more.

God Bless

 

[VeryBlessed]

To the OP, I will say that I can at times feel some confusion between what the church states in its documents, and then of course, what I observe in people in the real world. I love everything the church teaches and in no way do I want to undermine or disagree with it. But at the same time, I have seen the Holy Spirit powerfully at work in and through people, Protestant and Catholic, who have not yet received some or all of the sacraments. I am able to be at peace with this apparent conflict, by understanding that church teachings are pointing us to the normative way of beginning in Christ and continuing in Christ, but neither do they tie God’s hands. I do not think that the church is saying that the Holy Spirit absolutely will not work in a persons life, unless and until they receive the sacraments.

The issue you raise seems a bit like a false dichotomy. Be aware that many who oppose the church, will set up these false dichotomies to make the church look ridiculous or wrong. I’ve been in many kinds of protestant churches, many of them so good, and yet I am convinced that the fullness of the Christian faith is in the Catholic Church. I’m glad you’re in RCIA, and I know the Holy Spirit is working in you now, even if your reception of the sacraments is some months away.

 

[rinnie]

I totally believe this. But let me explain the RCC teaching in my words. If I am wrong my RCC friends will correct me haha. Long story short as I can. According to the church baptism is done to rid of original sin wipes it away reborn. now Jesus said in order to enter all must be baptised in the Trinity. Now with that said this is ordinary means all we know how to do it. Jesus says do it we do. But just because we know ord.means does not mean God is limited to them. Christ can use extra ordinary means bap of desire as you said. He can do anytime he wants. But if it’s available here and you can get it do it. But think if it’s not real important here to you why in the next. My personal opinion if you want God here why would you reject him in heaven. Vice versa why reject him here and then want him in heaven. But my point is there are places you cannot receive baptism and God knows a heart

 

[rose321]

understand the Church teaches the Holy Spirit is conferred at baptism & I believe it. But…

Respectfully opinion only …when we repent? repent repent? Do so with a pure intentions, purity of heart and written also…
Jesus teaches us…let your yes be yes and your no be no, right?

:thinking:When we reach the age of maturity to…know… right from wrong?

:thinking:Written all throughout OT and NT…return to me and I will return to you?

John was known as a Baptizer, calling out …repent repent repent …to whom?

Those of age of maturity to …know …right from wrong? Adults?
Written within His Spoken Word… I choose whom I will and I show mercy to whom I show mercy.

Written was there not just 112 in the room on Pentecost day who received the gift of the Holy Spirit, giving knowledge and understanding the gifts needed… to go out and spread the good news?

…We do not choose …but our Heavenly Father only… chooses when he chooses… an… to whom he chooses …would this be true?

:thinking:Written… Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord…?

:thinking:Written…Many are called but few shall enter…?

:thinking:Written Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…not what we read …but what we hear maybe?

Our Heavenly Father right in the beginning of time …Spoke…Spoken…to those whom and all his chosen right?
Our Heavenly Father did not …write long letters first… to his Prophet?, Moses? Abraham? King David? Elizabeth? Blessed Mother? Zechariah ( John B father) did he, list can go on on can it not that in what is written…He Spoke …Spoken to them directly…did he not?

Jesus teaches us did he not?..Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…?

Peace
Written is it not?..God said: Silence before me?

 

[rose321]

I would say that it was when he was baptized.

Respectfully opinion only in what is written…God Spoke…brought St Paul to his knees, before he was baptized for he was not a follower of Jesus and was on the road to Damascus to persecute the Apostles, disciples…Saul Saul why are you persecuting me?

Question
Does it take place first within us?
Then a symbolic ritual takes place publicly announcing it?

Example King David?

Then reading Saul who is now St Paul within his own writings, he gives his confession…confesses what he had done and what God had done for him also…did he not? But first…
:thinking:St Paul -Repented… confessed, did he?
:thinking:St Paul- Renewed…changed his harden heart, his thoughts?
St Paul -Restored… to wholeness, and changed his way of life?
St Paul Returned…Return to Me, Truth and I will return to you?
:thinking:St Paul- Repented, Renewed, Restore and Returned… within
himself first? Truly sorry…
St Paul let his yes be yes and his no be no…Free Will given to all…God forces no one right to love him?
…thus God choose, St Paul in serving the him did he?
St Paul made an… internal change was needed… within …his …own heart, soul and mind…first was needed?
Written… A.house divided cannot stand?
Make one self whole within…did he? Love me with your whole heart soul and mind?
James whole Epistle reads like a homily speaking about making ourselves whole within does it?
James 1: -5 …James :3:13-18, James 2:8-10

Peaceray:

 

[MT1926]

when we repent? repent repent? Do so with a pure intentions, purity of heart and written also…

Keep in mind though that repent does not mean confess. It means to turn away from sin. One can repent and turn away from sin before they commit the sin. They don’t need to reach an age of reason and know for themselves what is wrong before they repent.

Jesus teaches us…let your yes be yes and your no be no, right?

This is teaching about swearing private oaths not Baptism.

When we reach the age of maturity to…know… right from wrong?
Those of age of maturity to …know …right from wrong? Adults?

Jesus never teaches we must reach an age of maturity before being Baptized.

Written all throughout OT and NT…return to me and I will return to you?

I think this would apply well to confession.

John was known as a Baptizer, calling out …repent repent repent …to whom?

To all of us. However, John’s Baptism was for repentance not the same as Jesus Baptism.

I choose whom I will and I show mercy to whom I show mercy.

Here St. Paul is explaining how God’s election of Israel in the past is perfectly consistent with Israel’s widespread rejection of the Gospel. Not really related to being born again.

We do not choose …but our Heavenly Father only… chooses when he chooses… an… to whom he chooses …would this be true?

Yes we believe that even our desire to be Baptized comes from a supernatural push which we call actual grace. But this “push” would occur before we are born again.

Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord…?

Many are called but few shall enter…?

Yes but these verses apply to born again believers as well.

Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…not what we read …but what we hear maybe?

Jesus teaches us did he not?..Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…?

AMEN! and Jesus left us a Church so we can hear the Church teaching that Baptism is the ordinary means in which we are born again.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Repented… confessed, did he?

Repentance and confession are not the same thing. First one repents this leads them to confession and at the end of our confession we promise to keep on repenting.

Renewed…changed his harden heart, his thoughts?

Sure seems that way. But Jesus never teaches unless one changes his hardened heart and thoughts one can not be born again. Which is the topic of this thread.

St Paul let his yes be yes and his no be no…Free Will given to all…God forces no one right to love him?

Like I said Jesus is teaching about oaths here not Baptism.

St Paul made an… internal change was needed… within …his …own heart, soul and mind…first was needed?

Sure but how does that change the fact that he was born again in Baptism?

Written… A.house divided cannot stand?

Agreed but have no clue how this applies to Baptism.

James whole Epistle reads like a homily speaking about making ourselves whole within does it?
James 1: -5 …James :3:13-18, James 2:8-10

Yes but keep in mind James starts the beginning of his letter with

2 Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.

He was writing to Baptized born again believers here.

God Bless

 

[rose321]

MT1926 Respectfully thank you for your kind reply greatly admire one for that thank you again!!

In Ancient times had the Feast of Atonement…done once a year all gathered in the presence of the Lord even in Jesus time and continues still this day in another faith and belief does it not?..yearly Feast of atonement…repenting and confessing their transgressions, directly to …God and in making their atonement to…right?

Within His Spoken Word…repent repent so so so many times… :thinking:Return to me and I will return to you, would this be true?
Why pray to our Heavenly Father…if he is not able to hear our prayers?

:thinking:Written…How many times must I forgive my brother 7 x77 ? times?
:thinking:Written, Confess your sins to one another…?
Is it not far more humbling when we publicly ask forgiveness to those who offended…doing…so making us not wanting to ever do that again?

With Saul…it was not a priest who aided in Saul’s conversion nor was it a priest who forgave Saul who is now St Paul for his sins was it? But who?

It was not a priest who heard or whom Saul repented to, confessing his own transgressions was it, but directly to the Father right?

Example Repent confess…speak the truth… One did not lie to ones priest, but one lied to his neighbor…go ask forgiveness, repent, confess what one did , I lied…to ones neighbor the one we directly offended right, is greatly humbling right and ask for mercy, forgiveness right?

Written…Forgive one another as I have forgiven you? Not just speaking to priest is he?
Written Confess your sins to one another…? Not just speaking to priest is he?

A confessional is one thing…a confession…does not need to be done in what we call a confessional…is a place we go to?
Confessions are done in court?
We can repent of our wrong doings, and confess such among ourselves?
I must confess I ate that last cookie?

It was not a priest whom St Paul directly repented to was it, but directly himself to our Heavenly Father right?

Choosing to leave the rest end here…

Just ones own opinion…right or wrong…stand to be corrected…Agree James was writing to many other churches, their Leaders in teaching in the Word and… to be taught to those within the congregation of faith…and to be heard by those… not within in the faith.to be heard?
…And many whether within the faith or not in faith. Even today being in the faith …we can all learn from James Epistle… even thou being in the faith, not being perfect…we attain a… deeper knowledge and understanding of His Spoken Word and strive to apply such in our own daily lives right?

Jesus Apostles, St Paul James were not just serving and calling out the faithful but also those not of the faith why we have the Gospels, Epistles still even thou being of the faith…we all continue to learn from right?

Peace… right?

 

[MT1926]

continues still this day in another faith and belief does it not

Sure but still doesn’t apply here. Jesus fulfilled the law. St. Paul tells us not to let anyone judge us because of a festival or feast.

Return to me and I will return to you, would this be true?

Already answered this one.

Why pray to our Heavenly Father…if he is not able to hear our prayers?

No one is saying he can’t hear our prayers. Why did you ask this? In what way do you think this applies to the topic we are discussing?

How many times must I forgive my brother 7 x77 ? times?

Confession and Baptism are two different sacraments

Confess your sins to one another…?

Yes. Your point for stating this?

It was not a priest who heard or whom Saul repented …

We don’t know the scriptures don’t tell us.

to ones neighbor the one we directly offended right, is greatly humbling right and ask for mercy, forgiveness right?

We are off the topic of Baptism. Not sure why you are honing in on confession?

Confessions are done in court?

These are your opinions. Not Church teachings. Not sure why you are bringing a secular court into the discussion.

We can repent of our wrong doings, and confess such among ourselves?

Sure you can but where does Jesus tell us that we have the ability to forgive sins for God?

You are taking your opinions to far. Just because I forgive you for harming me doesn’t mean you are off scott free with God. You still need to confess your sin to God. He gave us the Sacrament of Confession so that we can know we are forgiven instead of just telling ourselves sure God forgives me.

It was not a priest whom St Paul directly repented …

You already asked this.

not within in the faith.to be heard?
…And many whether within the faith or not in faith.

Don’t agree. James was writing to those already in the Church. He was not writing a pamphlet to be handed out on street corners for the unbelievers to read on there own. You yourself already said…

Let your ears hear what the Spirit says…not what we read …but what we hear

Jesus Apostles, St Paul James were not just serving and calling out the faithful but also those not of the faith why we have the Gospels, Epistles still even thou being of the faith…we all continue to learn from right

Yes and no. Sure we can learn but the Apostles never intended for us to understand on our own. They intended for us to be taught.

God Bless

 

[Justin_Mary]

However, John’s Baptism was for repentance not the same as Jesus Baptism.

Good point. So then when were the 12 baptized? Jesus never baptized anyone in the Gospels. The 12 didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Pentacost.

& Cornelius & his house received the Spirit which convinced Peter to baptize them. They received the Spirit & then was baptized… IIRC

 

[MT1926]

Good point. So then when were the 12 baptized? Jesus never baptized anyone in the Gospels.

True the scriptures never come right out and tell us but that doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t Baptize the 12.

The 12 didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Pentacost.

Actually they first recieved the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the upper room when Jesus breathed on them.

& Cornelius & his house received the Spirit which convinced Peter to baptize them. They received the Spirit & then was baptized… IIRC

Personally, I think this was to prove to St. Peter that the Gentiles were worthy of Baptism not to prove to us that we didn’t need Baptism.

It might be easier to just point you to a good article to read…

Give THIS a read and we can discuss it.

I like it because it explains some differences that you seem to be point to…

This position is one that confuses three separate spiritual states: 1) That of a baptized Christian in the state of grace (who is sacramentally and canonically a Christian, “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27); 2) That of a Christian who is “born-again” (“regenerated”). That is, a Christian who has undergone a kind of “conversion.” Or a “metanoia” experience, as the Greek Fathers called it, which involves a knowledge of and commitment to Jesus as one’s Lord and personal Savior (Gal. 2:20). It is a state which Pope John Paul II said is lacking in many “sacramentalized” Christians; and 3) That of a charismatic Christian who has received the baptism in the Spirit as an experience separate from, and usually subsequent to, a “conversion” experience (Titus 3:4-5).

God Bless

 

[rose321]

St. Paul tells us not to let anyone judge us because of a festival or feast.

Respectfully opinion only seeking understanding
Agree St Paul states such, but what does Jesus tell us also?

What does Jesus teach us

1 John 4:1-6 Test all spirits beloved do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they re from God for many false prophets have gone out…

Matthew 7:16-20 Beware of false prophet who come to you in sheep clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves you will determine by their fruits…
Matthew Chapter 23…what is Jesus himself doing in this chapter, judging? condemning? standing up for truth? seeking righteousness? defending protecting his people? Would the Apostles be observing? Hearing? Learning from? Test all Spirits? Jesus knew them by their fruits, right or wrong?..

St Paul is speaking about feast days

Galatians 4:10 There forth let no one judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a festival a new moon or a Sabbath…

Confess your sins to one another…?

Does Jesus not give all the power to forgive sins?

You are taking your opinions to far. Just because I forgive you for harming me doesn’t mean you are off scott free with God. You still need to confess your sin to God.

Agree thanks you with ones example…Jesus gave us The Lord’s Prayer…
Within The Lord’s Prayer…
First we ask our Heavenly Father to forgive us for our trespasses, offenses against him…then we continue to ask, confess to him in

Second Letting our Heavenly Father know… has we also have forgiven the trespasses offenses done against us…by others… Having the hope we are forgiven…Our Heavenly Father hears our prayers right if done with pure intentions and trusting in his word…Return to Me and I will return to you?

Don’t agree. James was writing to those already in the Church

:slightly_smiling_face:Agree, thank you kindly
Point making is this…go back 2,000 years in Jesus time…James is writing to the …leaders or Elders of the church…in teaching them…giving directions, instructions on the Spoken Word…to teach those who are gathering on their weekly worship…remembering…not like today in those times…was it?.
…Both believers and non believers are gathering together…wanting to hear…St Paul had this issue in what I am speaking about…for James was still alive…What do we do with the gentles coming to our Synagogues on Sabbaths to hear and wanting to enter the fold, right? Why they had this big meeting in Jerusalem St Paul rights on this in His Epistles…Temple is not yet destroyed…when James is writing…they gathered in homes, synagogues?
St Paul is still alive…he himself speaks of this
when he goes teaching within homes, within synagogues, right?

Was St Paul reborn in Christ and by the power of whom?
And can anyone be reborn in Christ without being taught by man?
.Peace:rose:

 

[rose321]

MT1926 Thank you enjoy our discussion…can see I am seeking understanding and questioning much right now… all good thou…

Respectfully when it comes to James epistle sent to Elders Leaders of the Faith no different… but far better today…organized…we also have many who come to our church on Sunday, we can have now believers, other denominations, those who have no faith come to our masses to hear for they are seeking out truths, or others who believe and are seeking personally…or some just told them if not even a believer…go to one of our Masses… …or some are seeking and wanting a place to call home…or seeking out deeper understanding to…answers … Or they come just wanting to know and examine us…if what is being said about us…is true…Beautiful congregation that is most welcoming… … Like I hope they are hearing being told, go and experience, one of their masses…and hearing our Church doors are always open, whether one does not believe…come and experience, witness and share in.one of our weekly Sunday Masses…then they will know for themselves>>>>>

…We have the most… Beautiful Masses in giving Praise and Glory to Our Heavenly Father…and whether they belong to a different denomination or not a believer…ray :hoping they will return again and hear our… Teaching homilies.
:slightly_smiling_face Oh, Hear our Beautiful …Ave Mare being song and be reborn in Christ!! :heartpulse

 

[MT1926]

1 John 4:1-6

Yes but keep in mind that we read this in the context of all of 1 John. Verse 6 is key to understanding what is being said here…

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

Who is the “US” that John speaks of? Look back to…

1 John 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.

The “US” is the successors of the Apostles. Not just anyone who is “born again” and owns a Bible.

Matthew 7:16-20

Here Jesus is speaking about False prophets who appear harmless, yet their ministry breeds error, division and immorality. Personally for me I believe Jesus is warning us here about preachers, we have today who continually preach lies about others, even though they have had the real teaching explained to them over and over again. I would also include those preachers causing family division by preaching divorce and remarriage is OK as well as same sex unions.

Matthew Chapter 23

Yes but keep in mind Jesus is condemning their actions not their teachings. He is not condemning their authority.

Does Jesus not give all the power to forgive sins?

We can forgive someone who sins against us but we cannot forgive someone who sins against God.

If I do something to hurt you I not only hurt you but I hurt Jesus as well. Think about Saul on the road to Dimascus.

Acts 9:1 Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord… 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Saul was persecuting Christians and by doing so Jesus tells him that he was persecuting him.

Therefore it is not enough to ask you for forgiveness I also need to ask for God’s forgiveness to have my sin forgiven. Which is why we go to confession, to have our sins forgiven through the priest.

Jesus gave us The Lord’s Prayer…
Within The Lord’s Prayer…
First we ask our Heavenly Father to forgive us for our trespasses

Yes Jesus gave us a prayer to as for forgiveness. But keep in mind that the Bible also tells us…

1 John 5:16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

So by all means pray the Lord’s prayer for you venial sins. However, we are taught here that we are not to pray (The Lord’s Pray) for mortal sin. That is why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Confession.

continued…