Rebuilding Decency in America

[edwest2]

Part One

To my brothers and sisters in Christ.

What will we do about a culture where sex and profanity permeates everything? Even some cartoons present sick, perverted and profoundly dysfunctional characters, supposedly, for “entertainment.”

If we believe in human dignity then we believe in human decency. Sadly, our entertainment has been corrupted by people who paid a lot of lawyers a lot of money to get judges to degrade human dignity. And it’s not limited to the electronic media.

One example is the number of strip clubs out there. Those young women (and some men) are wives, mothers, daughters and sisters. The owners of these establishments are turning women into “sex objects.” Do you think that’s a good thing? They are hoping that young men will go in and spend their money and become addicted, not just to booze and the girls but to immorality. Ask any police officer, once a few windows get broken in a neighborhood, pretty soon, everybody thinks it’s OK to break more. Then the drug dealers and the prostitutes move in, and ‘decent’ people move out.

Are you decent? Do you want to be? I’ve noticed these sorts of places are usually on the border of the good neighborhoods and the bad neighborhoods. They are brightly lit and sure, anyone can go in, if you’re of age. But why should you?

It’s legal, you might think. Does that make it right? Do these girls actually want to do this? Or would they rather have their dignity and modesty?

That is the core of the problem – indecency has been legalized, but for God, these things reduce young women to objects, degrades them as human beings and harms their spirit. The world replies: Hey. What’s the big deal?

God tells us to love one another. To love our neighbor as we love ourselves. If we value the human dignity of the young women we know, why do we want other young women to degrade themselves? This is wrong and we should say something about it.

Write to your Congressman, Senator and even the President. Pray and ask God for guidance so that we can tell them that part of the population of this country is engaged in degrading themselves. That part of the people in this country are not getting the respect they deserve, not just as women but as human beings.

If you struggle with this in your life, pray to God for help. Repent, turn away. Tell others in your community that this is not right and why. The world hopes our protests will disappear. That we will sit quietly by as others do things that are “legal” but which harm the dignity of our sisters and daughters. Let us also help to save them spiritually as well. Pray for them.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Starwynd]

It’s called rebellion. People have a tendence yo to rebel against authority so people can find their own way of expressing themselves. Some people just have an aversion to being told how to behave, even more so by people who pull the “Do as I say not as I do” junk, in what could be seen as oppression of freedom of happiness.

 

[Ruthie]

That’s a vast over-simplification, Starwynd. Do you know how vast the industry of “sex work” is? Do you know how much is at stake for these men whose wealth depends on it?

It used to be that **no **girl wanted to grow up to be a stripper. Certainly no girl wants to grow up to be a whore. Well, it’s no longer a long step from being a waitress at Hooters to being a stripper (oh, excuse me, “exotic dancer”). And once you take off your clothes and start making good money from lap dances, it’s not a long step from there to prostitution.

The slimeballs who live off this will fight tooth and nail to prevent a resurgence of standards of decency.

Right now, there’s not much for them to worry about, with the average college girl wearing clothes that would be just fine for a waitress at Hooters.

But if there was a real gap between what “nice girls” wear, and what “sex workers” (and those on the fringe, like Hooters) wear… those guys might start worrying.

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[Exalt]

The owners of these [strip club] establishments are turning women into “sex objects.” … Do these girls actually want to do this? Or would they rather have their dignity and modesty? … If we value the human dignity of the young women we know, why do we want other young women to degrade themselves? … Write to your Congressman, Senator and even the President. Pray and ask God for guidance so that we can tell them that part of the population of this country is engaged in degrading themselves**. **

#1) You assume that these women who work at strip clubs are degrading themselves. Furthermore, you suggest that they don’t want to be in the situation they’re in.

First of all, let me preface what I’m about to say with this: If any women in this country don’t want to be engaged in any kind of sexual or intimate activity (for any reason, including money), they absolutely need all the help we can give them. They should not be involved in such situations, and I would lend every word of encouragement to them.

That being said, there are countless opportunities in this country that don’t involve becoming a stripper (or something similar). I doubt very much that in the United States there exist a sizable population of women who are forced to become strippers, either through coercion or a lack of alternative jobs.

So, let me get on with the primary point of my response to you: I believe that many women are strippers don’t believe that their work is “degrading” in any way. After reading your post, I went and looked up a few blogs of women who are strippers just to see what they had to say. I found some profound words. I’d recommend hearing from what it’s like from their perspective.

I imagine that these women take charge of their own sexuality in a way that the vast majority of other people can’t or won’t. It takes a whole lot of guts to get on stage and take off your clothes in front of a bunch of people - I certainly don’t have that confidence. Most men and women don’t. I don’t see how it’s degrading for a woman, recognizing that she has a rare talent, freely chooses to pursue a career that could make her a decent paycheck. I don’t see how that’s degrading or wrong at all.

#2) We live in a free society. If these women freely choose to work in these establishments, why would we deny them that choice? Is it because you believe it is wrong? What about the men and women who don’t believe it is wrong?

 

[edwest2]

“free society”? What does that mean? With our freedom comes responsibility. The reasons we act responsibly are not just for our benefit but for the benefit of other people. When we act irresponsibly, it often not only hurts ourselves but people around us.

By allowing this sort of indecency, it degrades not only strippers but women in general. This takes away the idea that this sort of work is in any way worthwhile. It sets up a situation where some are respected and others are not respected. As I pointed out, a lot of lawyers being paid a lot of money made this happen. No one I know woke up one day and said, I think there should be strip clubs. But some people who were willing to degrade other people, hired lawyers, made up a story, and got their wish. The community protested. Don’t think for a moment that they did not. The people in charge hoped that their legality would entice men to visit them. But it was all built on the addiction model. I would not encourage anyone to become addicted to alcohol or to strip clubs.

All women deserve to be respected. All women need to be told that they are valuable because they are human beings. And respect for human beings means respect for human decency.

Too many in this country live under the false belief that there are rules when you are a kid but somehow, when you are an adult, those rules go away. I don’t want anyone seeing me go to a strip club. I don’t want to be a bad example to strangers. I want my fellow human beings to know that this is wrong because the women I know and even the women I don’t know, deserve to be treated with respect. It is disrespectful to women, all women, to see them undressed at a strip club.

As an artist, I saw nudes at my life drawing class. One day, me and my fellow students chased a perv down the hall after he snuck in to get a look. The model was very offended for being treated as “a sex object.”

Some things are right and some things are wrong – strip clubs degrade the human person, robbing them of their dignity.

God bless,
Ed

 

[hays1122]

Atheists and the ACLU are doing all they can to help America become a guilt free society.
No God, No sins, No problems.
I heard on the news today that the government is being sued because atheists don’t believe that the president should be sworn into office with any mention of God.
These are the people that claim foul language and nudity is part of our freedom of speech,freedom of expression.
Lets make sure they don’t nail the final nail in our religious freedom “coffin” with this latest attack.
They plan on burying the America that claims “IN God We Trust”.

 

[Exalt]

By allowing this sort of indecency, it degrades not only strippers but women in general. This takes away the idea that this sort of work is in any way worthwhile. It sets up a situation where some are respected and others are not respected… All women deserve to be respected. All women need to be told that they are valuable because they are human beings. And respect for human beings means respect for human decency.

I respect women who are strippers. Most of the people I know respect them as well. How exactly does exotic dancing degrade women in any way? Do you have the confidence to take your clothes off in front of others for money? I sure don’t. I admire the women who *do *have that confidence.

It is disrespectful to women, all women, to see them undressed at a strip club.

Why? I don’t understand *why *it’s disrespectful to the women who actually want to be seen taking their clothes off.

As an artist, I saw nudes at my life drawing class. One day, me and my fellow students chased a perv down the hall after he snuck in to get a look. The model was very offended for being treated as “a sex object.”

Obviously that’s different. The model didn’t want to be treated that way. As I clearly stated in my previous post:

“First of all, let me preface what I’m about to say with this: If any women in this country don’t want to be engaged in any kind of sexual or intimate activity (for any reason, including money), they absolutely need all the help we can give them. They should not be involved in such situations, and I would lend every word of encouragement to them.”

 

[Exalt]

I heard on the news today that the government is being sued because atheists don’t believe that the president should be sworn into office with any mention of God.

Right, because of the Constitution, remember? The oath of office is actually written in there, explicitly. There is no mention of God in there, and it’s rather clear what the intentions of the framers were on that matter. God was intentionally left out. The Freedom from Religion Foundation has excellent legal grounds for this.

 

[SteveGC]

Ed, good post. This problem is nothing new to faithful Christians. Nevertheless, it’s always good to have an exhortation to not sit idly by while others “strip” our society of God (pun intended). There is much we can do at our local levels. We just have to want to get involved. We have to understand that just because we don’t see others taking a stand, that we are justified in our inaction.

As for your dialogue with Exalt…

no offense to Exalt, but I would presume he/she is not Christian. Not that you have to be Christian to agree with your view, but faithful Christians certainly would agree, without argument. Assuming I’m right, you won’t get far explaining your case in secular terms. So…

Exalt, just to help you understand Ed…

Stripping IS, in fact, degrading…but not for the reasons you think.

It is degrading because the body is the temple of God. Everyone’s is. Yours. Mine. The stripper who loves stripping. It is degrading because it is a desecration of the body…which is to say, depriving it of it’s sacred character. In other words, stripping makes use of the body against the purposes for which it was intended/created. Stripping employs the body for the purpose of generating lust in another person (which is gravely immoral).

THAT is why it is degrading. It makes no difference if you “admire their confidence”. It makes no difference if they enjoy it themselves.

And you may say “well, that’s just my opinion about why it’s degrading…and I have my opinion about why it’s not”

But the essential difference there is that my opinion is not mine at all. It is revealed TRUTH. And Truth is not someTHING, it is someONE…Jesus Christ. Don’t believe it if you don’t want to…at your own peril.

My apologies for lack of charity in my tone…and certainly if I misjudged your faith. Not my intent…just my presumption.

God Bless

 

[Dale_M]

I want to commend Exalt for his courage. Defending erotic dancing at a Catholic site is not for the faint of heart, let alone defending strip clubs in a forum devoted to Moral Theology. I think striptease could easily be criticized on the basis of the natures of men and women, of which there are quite a bit of Church writing. (But I am no longer in that game.)

Write to your Congressman, Senator and even the President. Pray and ask God for guidance so that we can tell them that part of the population of this country is engaged in degrading themselves. That part of the people in this country are not getting the respect they deserve, not just as women but as human beings.

Ed, are you sure that the national level is the right spot for activism? The past successes against erotic dancing have been at the local level, with zoning laws (ex. NYC doesn’t allow strip clubs within half a mile of churches & schools), city ordinances (Erie, PA forbids public nudity) and even at the state level (Indiana forbids nude dancing).

In a Secular News thread I had mentioned that the federal courts have ruled that erotic dancing is protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. And its true. But I have also learned that the US Supreme Court has ruled in favor of restrictions on such clubs, see Erie v. Pap’s A.M. and Barnes v. Glen Theatre.

Since similar restrictions are likely to have to pass federal court challenges, perhaps it is best to work locally to pass restrictions which could later be put to the test. The successful measures could then be adopted by other cities and states. And then, perhaps, nationally.

 

[crowonsnow]

Ed,

You may be surprised to know that when I was in the service the officers’ club entertained lots of strippers. When lowlifes came in and couldn’t behave we showed them the door, same thing we’d have done without the strippers there.

I think that if one is of sufficient maturity, strippers are no big deal. They sit and drink at the bar with the other patrons when they’re not entertaining. They are people too.

One stripper we called Granny because she was a bit older than the others. But she was a great talker and could chew the fat with anyone.

 

[edwest2]

When we say ‘it’s no big deal,’ we become indifferent to sin. We become indifferent to guarding the decency of the human body. “Exotic dancer” means stripper. We, all of us, have been lied to. All it took was a few people repeating the message that we should ignore this or regard it as nothing.

Young people in particular, in every generation, need to be taught at the proper age: this is right and this is wrong. And their parents should serve them, and God, as good examples in living out the truth of human dignity. These rules about what is right and what is wrong do not go away when we become adults. Our actions speak about us to strangers. People who don’t know us, see us, and God who knows each of us, sees us. Be pure in heart, mind and spirit.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, I encourage you, be sensitive to sin and examine your conscience. Ask God, the Holy Spirit for guidance.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Exalt

We live in a free society. If these women freely choose to work in these establishments, why would we deny them that choice? Is it because you believe it is wrong? What about the men and women who don’t believe it is wrong?

Well, you certainly must be an atheist or you would not dare to make such a remark. I’m afraid your position lends credibility to the view that atheists are severely lacking in moral foundation because they deny the source of any such foundation … God himself.

Right, because of the Constitution, remember? The oath of office is actually written in there, explicitly. There is no mention of God in there, and it’s rather clear what the intentions of the framers were on that matter. God was intentionally left out. The Freedom from Religion Foundation has excellent legal grounds for this.

Again, it’s very clear your arguments are without foundation, both moral and historical.

At the Constitutional Convention, 1787, James Madison recorded the following remarks made by Benjamin Franklin to the president of the Convention:

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.’ I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Government by Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

"I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.”

Mr. Sherman seconded the motion.

Clearly the framers and their successors in government to this day have honored the tradition of a Congressional chaplain.

Moreover, the 1st Amendment protects the right to religious freedom, a fact that atheists have to acknowledge as a clear guarantee by government that no future tribe of atheists will be able to suppress religion (as did Stalin, Hitler, and Mao) without suppressing the Constitution.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Again, as to restoring decency in society, I think we must restore Christianity first. That is why John Paul put such a high value on evangelization. This will be done not just by the clergy, but also by the laity. In fact, as Bishop Fulton Sheen predicted, America will be saved not by the clergy but more so by the laity as in greater numbers they are recruited to live and spread the gospel everywhere in an increasingly godless America.

Certainly *Catholic Answers *is a great place to begin.

 

[edwest2]

If we choose Christ freely, and learn about our faith and our Church, then, even though we are saved by grace, not works, we must be the light to the world. We must be the salt of the earth. We are told that if the salt loses its savor it is thrown out and men trample it underfoot.

Faith without works is dead. We must live by the renewing of our minds, as promised. Jesus said, If you love me keep my commandments.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Ruthie]

Exalt seems to think that strippers choose to be strippers freely.

I’m not saying anyone points a gun to their heads. I am saying that it’s a slippery slope. They progress from a little overexposure, to more, and more.

An example, from my husband’s experience when he was still an atheist sinner. He used to think like Exalt, but this changed him.

A single mother with no job qualifications gets a job as a waitress. Later, she hears that Hooters waitresses earn more than she does and applies. She follows their dress code, and gets used to exposing a lot of flesh.

From a customer, she learns that strippers make a lot more money that Hooters waitresses. She decides to apply. (DH was uncomfortable. She was “too nice” to be a stripper. Jesus got a wedge in, and pretty soon DH figured out that the sex industry degraded women.)

There’s a progression with strippers, too. You can begin with keeping the essentials covered - like wearing a bikini. But you learn that the girls who show more get better tips. The girls who do lap dances get even better tips. You move to “private dancing,” then to private lap dancing, then to having sex with just one really generous customer… and so it goes.

I’d bet that at least some of the ones who are proud of it are in denial. They don’t want to be ashamed, so they decide they are proud.

The rest are misled. They have been trained to think that their eroticism is more important than their personality or their brains or their interests in life. If they can just (vulgarity warning) make a guy’s member stand up and salute, they are a success.

That’s not what God made us for. That’s not what I want for any of the women I know, or the girls.

Heart of Jesus, fountain of life and holiness, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

 

[hays1122]

Exalt seems to think that strippers choose to be strippers freely.

I’m not saying anyone points a gun to their heads. I am saying that it’s a slippery slope. They progress from a little overexposure, to more, and more.

An example, from my husband’s experience when he was still an atheist sinner. He used to think like Exalt, but this changed him.

A single mother with no job qualifications gets a job as a waitress. Later, she hears that Hooters waitresses earn more than she does and applies. She follows their dress code, and gets used to exposing a lot of flesh.

From a customer, she learns that strippers make a lot more money that Hooters waitresses. She decides to apply. (DH was uncomfortable. She was “too nice” to be a stripper. Jesus got a wedge in, and pretty soon DH figured out that the sex industry degraded women.)

There’s a progression with strippers, too. You can begin with keeping the essentials covered - like wearing a bikini. But you learn that the girls who show more get better tips. The girls who do lap dances get even better tips. You move to “private dancing,” then to private lap dancing, then to having sex with just one really generous customer… and so it goes.

I’d bet that at least some of the ones who are proud of it are in denial. They don’t want to be ashamed, so they decide they are proud.

The rest are misled. They have been trained to think that their eroticism is more important than their personality or their brains or their interests in life. If they can just (vulgarity warning) make a guy’s member stand up and salute, they are a success.

That’s not what God made us for. That’s not what I want for any of the women I know, or the girls.

Heart of Jesus, fountain of life and holiness, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

I’d like to add that a lot of these women were sexually abused as young children. Sometimes by their own father. Once you hear one of their stories,you wonder if they are to blame.
Some self righteous person might say,“They have a choice”.
Yes but their minds and sense of what is moral isn’t very clear to them.
Can you imagine a young teenage girl growing up attending church every Sunday. And she must keep the fact of what her father does when they are alone, to herself. Because she loves her father,she loves her mother and doesn’t want them to divorce.
Sometimes she does tell her mother and her mother turns against her.
When you see one of those women,you should pray for her with compassion. You have no idea why she ended up there.
Pray that the Lord will be able to reach her before it’s too late.
Only the Lord himself can show her the way. She won’t listen to you or me. We don’t know what she went through or how badly her spirit has been damaged.

 

[Ame]

I’m going to address the title “Rebuilding Decency In America”…

In the Catholic faith, we believe that there are and will be consequences for our actions and that humility is the ticket to experiencing the grace and peace God has to offer. Have you listened so some of the perspectives presented in other faiths - especially on TV? I’m hearing “religious authorities” telling people by the millions that God wants them to be rich. What? I’m sorry, but whatever happened to “it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into Heaven?” Whatever happened to “blessed are the poor in spirit theirs is the kingdom of God?” (I hope I’m quoting that right). Our young people believe that money is everything and they will do anything for it. They also believe that after they finish doing “anything” they can to get this money, they can ask God to forgive them and it’s all OK. They also believe that if they stand up for what their faith teaches them, they are intolerant. So, they “go with the flow” and hope God will forgive them later. I’m only 32 years old and I know this, because I have friends that think this way and I taught high school and saw it with my own two eyes. Young people do not “fear” God - you know, in that healthy way that we all should “fear” Him.

 

[Exalt]

Exalt seems to think that strippers choose to be strippers freely…I’m not saying anyone points a gun to their heads. I am saying that it’s a slippery slope. They progress from a little overexposure, to more, and more. (Click on the post to read more)

They have the freedom to leave if they wish. Are you denying that?

Furthermore, as I said before: “First of all, let me preface what I’m about to say with this: If any women in this country don’t want to be engaged in any kind of sexual or intimate activity (for any reason, including money), they absolutely need all the help we can give them. They should not be involved in such situations, and I would lend every word of encouragement to them.”

I continue to stand by that.

Also, I also stand by the principle that this is a free country. If women want to take off their clothes for money (or for any other reason), they should be free to do so.

 

[SteveGC]

I also stand by the principle that this is a free country. If women want to take off their clothes for money (or for any other reason), they should be free to do so.

Let me try to help you understand some of us, Exalt.

You see, faithful Christians don’t share the same definition of “freedom” that you have.

Many people hold to the worldly definition of “freedom”. On average, these are people who do not familiarize and align themselves with Christ and his teachings. The worldly definition of freedom is all about not being controlled, nor persecuted, nor discriminated against by others for something they want to do. These people think that as long as you don’t break any civil laws, you should be “free” to do what you want.

Most Christians do see some of this definition as valid. We try hard not to judge others, nor alienate them from society, simply because they choose to do something they want. But we do oppose, and often take some form of charitable corrective action on behalf of Christian morality to bring certain things that people do to a halt. Why?

Because our definition of freedom is “the ability to do what one OUGHT to do”. As opposed to “the ability to do what one WANTS to do”. What makes this different is a concept of morality, which for a Christian, is clearly defined through the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. So if you now refer to my earlier post on 5 Jan, it might make more sense:

Stripping IS, in fact, degrading…but not for the reasons you think. It is degrading because the body is the temple of God. Everyone’s is. Yours. Mine. The stripper who loves stripping. It is degrading because it is a desecration of the body…which is to say, depriving it of it’s sacred character. In other words, stripping makes use of the body against the purposes for which it was intended/created. Stripping employs the body for the purpose of generating lust in another person (which is gravely immoral). THAT is why it is degrading. It makes no difference if you “admire their confidence”. It makes no difference if they enjoy it themselves. And you may say “well, that’s just my opinion about why it’s degrading…and I have my opinion about why it’s not” But the essential difference there is that my opinion is not mine at all. It is revealed TRUTH. And Truth is not someTHING, it is someONE…Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if this helped. I hope so.

God Bless