rebuilding trust with fiance

[EasterJoy]

The general consensus of the thread is to dump him, and you do have valid reason. However it does seem like he is making an honest attempt to change his life for the better. I am 26 and unfortunately many young men I know act as he does. I think you need to postpone your marriage for a little while and see how things go. Tell him that if he lies one more time that is it, and hold him to it. Couples counseling is not just for married people.

We are living in an era in which the divorce rate is astronomical, not to mention a time in which some psychologists estimated that as many as 1 in 20 Americans have entrenched antisocial personalities…that is, they don’t have a sufficient emotional connection to others to them much more than an intellectual conscience. It is not any big surprise that many young men act as he does, either becaues they lack a conscience or because the example of their circle of friends means that demonstrating character takes extra courage.

Couples counselling can help immensely if a couple needs communication skills, financial management skills, and the like. Couples counselling does not give people character.

This young man has had his “one more time” and then some. He’s already lied several times, never once confessed before being caught, and not once has he done anything but apologize profusely and promise not to let it happen again, which even a sociopath will do. On top of that, he’s shown that he is disrespectful, as well.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“IMHO, the past is in the past as long as the person is truthful about it, is faithful to the person that he/she is engaged to. The red flag is when a person is repeatedly and currently lying to the person that is their fiance.”

“The past is in the past” is a vacuous argument. It’s also circular. Guys who have sex before marriage usually do not respect women, and the attitude stays with them. It’s like doing a criminal background check.

 

[EasterJoy]

“The past is in the past” is a vacuous argument. It’s also circular. Guys who have sex before marriage usually do not respect women, and the attitude stays with them. It’s like doing a criminal background check.

True contrition and amendment demonstrated over a non-trivial amount of time is meant, not a mere “my bad, really, if you forgive me I’ll try not to do that any more.” St. Paul withstood the criminal background check not by having avoided anything criminal, but having obviously turned from it. It does happen.

IOW, you have to build a substantial immediate past that testifies that it is not naive to believe that your future course has turned away from what it would have been. As it is, this fellow has built a substantial record of saying he’ll change and then not doing it.

Nice try to the OP’s boyfriend, but he’s struck out. Let’s hope he can clean it up for the next girlfriend, but as for this one…NEXT!!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

“The past is in the past” is a vacuous argument. It’s also circular. Guys who have sex before marriage usually do not respect women, and the attitude stays with them. It’s like doing a criminal background check.

Its pretty uncharitable and ridiculous to say that the vast majority of men don’t respect women.

 

[Lucky7]

Its pretty uncharitable and ridiculous to say that the vast majority of men don’t respect women.

Seriously. Holy Generalization Batman.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“Its pretty uncharitable and ridiculous to say that the vast majority of men don’t respect women.”

The definition of respect is: “to take notice of; to regard with special attention; to regard as worthy of special consideration; hence, to care for; to heed.”

The average number of partners a man has is about 14.

Kant said that we should treat others “never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end”.

So, can you tell me how those things all concur?

 

[Chevaleresse]

True contrition and amendment demonstrated over a non-trivial amount of time is meant, not a mere “my bad, really, if you forgive me I’ll try not to do that any more.” St. Paul withstood the criminal background check not by having avoided anything criminal, but having obviously turned from it. It does happen.

IOW, you have to build a substantial immediate past that testifies that it is not naive to believe that your future course has turned away from what it would have been. As it is, this fellow has built a substantial record of saying he’ll change and then not doing it.

“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.”
-Eliot

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The definition of respect is: “to take notice of; to regard with special attention; to regard as worthy of special consideration; hence, to care for; to heed.”

The average number of partners a man has is about 14.

Kant said that we should treat others “never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end”.

So, can you tell me how those things all concur?

First I’m going to need to see a source that the average number of partners a man has is 14.

Two, you seem to have this dichotomy set up in your head where people are either completely pure until marriage or they are amoral, promiscuous dirtbags who have absolutely no regard for anyone else or any shred of human decency within them.

Hate to be the one to break it to you sweetheart, but there is a vast area of gray in between those two extremes.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“First I’m going to need to see a source that the average number of partners a man has is 14.”

“Do Men and Women Have the Same Average Number of Lifetime Partners?”
Marc Artzrouni, Eva Deuchert
Mathematical Population Studies
Vol. 17, Iss. 4, 2010

“Two, you seem to have this dichotomy set up in your head where people are either completely pure until marriage or they are amoral, promiscuous dirtbags who have absolutely no regard for anyone else or any shred of human decency within them.”

amoral - “being outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals”

promiscuous - “Distributed or applied without order or discrimination; not restricted to an individual; common; indiscriminate; as, promiscuous love or intercourse.”

We’re talking about respect for the other person - i.e. not using them. You’ve gone off on a tangent a bit making up stuff that I’m supposedly saying.

“Hate to be the one to break it to you sweetheart, but there is a vast area of gray in between those two extremes.”

Gray is often just black and white at a distance…

You still haven’t countered my points about respect. (“I love you and respect you… just like the previous 3/5/10/15/30/100 people”, right?)

 

[fm1982]

I have been struggling with his to forgive infidelity by my wife for months now.

We are in the fake it and hope you make it stage now, but I still have a lot of anger and resentment to deal with. We are married with kids, so even though I know about a lot that happened while we were engaged and could make a case for annulment, it would be hard on the kids and me, so I have to figure it out.

Like others have said, things like counseling don’t change character. Very insightful, I never thought of that so unfortunately I am stuck with a damaged character.

You have an out, seriously consider taking it. His character will not change nor should you marry someone expecting that. Unless you are okay with the way he treats you, get out now.

I only wish I knew some of the character I was going to be dealing with earlier but I guess she was a good liar and I was too trusting.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

“Do Men and Women Have the Same Average Number of Lifetime Partners?”
Marc Artzrouni, Eva Deuchert
Mathematical Population Studies
Vol. 17, Iss. 4, 2010

amoral - “being outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals”

promiscuous - “Distributed or applied without order or discrimination; not restricted to an individual; common; indiscriminate; as, promiscuous love or intercourse.”

We’re talking about respect for the other person - i.e. not using them. You’ve gone off on a tangent a bit making up stuff that I’m supposedly saying.

Gray is often just black and white at a distance…

You still haven’t countered my points about respect. (“I love you and respect you… just like the previous 3/5/10/15/30/100 people”, right?)

Looked it up, can’t find it. Tried to look up your statistic, can’t find it. Looked up your statistic with the name of the paper, can’t find it. Most reputable organizations that I did find though put the average for men at around 6.

You really think that everyone who has sex is disrespecting their partner and/or using them? Really? I mean, even from a religious perspective that doesn’t make a lot of sense, and I think that even a lot of people on here who had sex with their spouses before the wedding would agree that they weren’t using that person. (Furthermore, most people don’t marry people that they don’t respect.)

That’s such a naive outlook. Very few things fall in to nice, neat categories like that, and people aren’t one of them.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“Looked it up, can’t find it. Tried to look up your statistic, can’t find it. Looked up your statistic with the name of the paper, can’t find it. Most reputable organizations that I did find though put the average for men at around 6.”

Those reputable organizations are doing things in a way that really limits usefulness (i.e. connection to reality).

Anyway… let’s add on a bit:

People under-report the number of partners (intentionally or unintentionally):

**“Randomised controlled trial of paper, online and SMS diaries for collecting sexual behaviour information from young people”
J. Jaccard, et al.
J. Epidemiol. Community Health October 1, 2010 64: 885-889
**
"Truth and consequences: using the bogus pipeline to examine sex differences in self-reported sexuality"
M.G. Alexander, T.D. Fisher
J. Sex Res., 40 (1) (2003), pp. 27–35

Another paper discussing average counts:

"Higher variability in the number of sexual partners in males can contribute to a higher prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases in females"
Rodrigo Gouveia-Oliveira, Anders Gorm Pedersen
Journal of Theoretical Biology, Volume 261, Issue 1, 7 November 2009, Pages 100-106

“You really think that everyone who has sex is disrespecting their partner and/or using them? Really?”

usually, adv., used for saying what happens, or what people do in most situations.

“I mean, even from a religious perspective that doesn’t make a lot of sense, and I think that even a lot of people on here who had sex with their spouses before the wedding would agree that they weren’t using that person.”

See above. It being from a religious perspective or not doesn’t matter at all. And yes, there are people on here who did admit they were using the person they did later marry. You won’t come across such a frank admission often, but it does happen. (There’s more to be said about the presence or absence of respect.)

And it doesn’t matter whether they think they were being disrespectful or not (bias on their part, maybe); it is disrespectful to the other person - that person is being used (remember Kant’s quote). That’s why premarital sex is a red flag; it points to a level of selfishness and disrespect towards others on a high level.

“Furthermore, most people don’t marry people that they don’t respect.”

So why the high divorce rate? The transiency in (sexual) relationships points to egoism (which is inherently disrespectful to others).

Now maybe you can tell me how it is (in your mind) respectful towards other to have sex before marriage, often with at least a half-dozen people?

PS. Please use the word ‘commitment’ and the maybe the definition of respect.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Now maybe you can tell me how it is (in your mind) respectful towards other to have sex before marriage, often with at least a half-dozen people?

It isn’t inherently respectful. But from my perspective it isn’t inherently disrespectful either. It is what you make of it.

Actually, I think that if I refused to have sex with my fiance that would be wrong. I just can’t imagine saying “I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, I want to share everything with you, I want to give you everything I have to give, but don’t touch me.”

But I can appreciate that if you believe that marriage is a calling from god who demands that you don’t have sex prior to it you would have a different point of view. But I can’t fathom anyone saying that men who have premarital sex don’t respect women. I mean really, look around in your life. Your male friends, male relatives, male teachers, firefighters, military members, men who volunteer at shelters for battered women, fathers, brothers, husbands, etc chances are have had premarital sex in their lives, and it is pretty insane and farfetched to assume that all of those men have issues respecting women.

 

[maltmom]

Has he* ever* come clean on his own, when you didn’t catch him first? Not in any of the cases you’re citing, that’s for sure. Promises are cheap, and his amendment has so far shown no signs of being anything but a firm purpose to not get caught next time.

Take this advice from Martha Stout, in her book, The Sociopath Next Door:

*When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.

Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you’re dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
*

I am reading this book right now b/c someone (you?) mentioned it in another thread. EasterJoy I sure wish I had known you, about this book and the Rule of Threes while I was dating my ex-husband. It would have saved me a lot of pain.

To the OP, if you are reading these comments, please read this book and listen to what everyone is saying.

When someone has done things in there past 20 - 30 years ago and have changed the way they live their lives it’s one thing. When they are doing this things currently that’s another. People can and do change unless they are sociopaths. In my 50’s I’m not the same woman I was in my 20’s. One can overlook actions that their partner did in their distant past if they are not the same person today.

I think it’s time to go to bed b/c I have no idea if this made any sense.

 

[Lucky7]

It isn’t inherently respectful. But from my perspective it isn’t inherently disrespectful either. It is what you make of it.

Actually, I think that if I refused to have sex with my fiance that would be wrong. I just can’t imagine saying “I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, I want to share everything with you, I want to give you everything I have to give, but don’t touch me.”

But I can appreciate that if you believe that marriage is a calling from god who demands that you don’t have sex prior to it you would have a different point of view. But I can’t fathom anyone saying that men who have premarital sex don’t respect women. I mean really, look around in your life. Your male friends, male relatives, male teachers, firefighters, military members, men who volunteer at shelters for battered women, fathers, brothers, husbands, etc chances are have had premarital sex in their lives, and it is pretty insane and farfetched to assume that all of those men have issues respecting women.

You know even if she is right (which I don’t believe) just because a man may have shown disrespect towards the women he had sex with prior to marriage does not necessarily mean he disrespects all women nor his wife.

 

[Chevaleresse]

“It isn’t inherently respectful. But from my perspective it isn’t inherently disrespectful either. It is what you make of it.”

So if a man, who uses a women for his own ends, wants it to be respectful, it is? Does the women get a say? Something like sense cannot be neutral in terms of respect. It either follows the definition of respect or it doesn’t. And it clearly doesn’t. Please avoid post-modernist nonsense.

"Actually, I think that if I refused to have sex with my fiance that would be wrong. I just can’t imagine saying “I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, I want to share everything with you, I want to give you everything I have to give, but don’t touch me.”

Please explain how that’s wrong. Is forcing people okay?

“I can’t fathom anyone saying that men who have premarital sex don’t respect women. I mean really, look around in your life. Your male friends, male relatives, male teachers, firefighters, military members, men who volunteer at shelters for battered women, fathers, brothers, husbands, etc chances are have had premarital sex in their lives, and it is pretty insane and farfetched to assume that all of those men have issues respecting women.”

I’d go into statistics, but you’ll ignore them anyway. No, not all men have issues respecting women (if you’re referring to the ones that have the strength to wait).

But I do see/hear/read about men with multiple marriages (just a few), widespread pornography addiction, prostitution, despicable conversations about women, hook-ups, forced abortions, sexual harassment, and so on. Just because they manage (in some cases) to maintain outward pleasantries, it doesn’t mean they respect women. And, “chances are” they’ll divorce the woman they marry. Did they respect her?

Just as a reminder: I said that premarital sex points to a lack of respect for the other person. That can change, but it requires a corrective force. There aren’t many of those.

So what does respect look like to you? Disrespect? Since your definition differs from the dictionary one, could you please share yours?

---

Here’s a study that points to lack of concern/respect for the other person:

“Men’s interest in sex partners’ status traits and commitment (investment thoughts) declines with number of sex partners and permissiveness of attitudes”

“Men with more permissive attitudes and sex partners show less interest in target persons’ status traits, and report more willingness to copulate with target persons solely on the basis of a visual inspection of physical attributes, than do men with fewer partners and less permissive attitudes”

**Dominance, sexual activity, and sexual emotions.
John Marshall Townsend
Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 1998 21, pp 386-386 **

 

[TheRealJuliane]

People who have pre-marital sex know nothing of respecting the other person.

There.

Once it’s broken, it’s almost impossible to fix. It’s like someone who has only spoken French their entire life. Take them to China and ask them to speak like a native speaker. They won’t even hear the sounds correctly, let alone be able to reproduce them in speech.

I’m sure I will get a lot of argument on this point, especially from people who are like I was - and know no other reality than sex before marriage.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

So if a man, who uses a women for his own ends, wants it to be respectful, it is? Does the women get a say? Something like sense cannot be neutral in terms of respect. It either follows the definition of respect or it doesn’t. And it clearly doesn’t. Please avoid post-modernist nonsense.

Please explain how that’s wrong. Is forcing people okay?

I’d go into statistics, but you’ll ignore them anyway. No, not all men have issues respecting women (if you’re referring to the ones that have the strength to wait).

But I do see/hear/read about men with multiple marriages (just a few), widespread pornography addiction, prostitution, despicable conversations about women, hook-ups, forced abortions, sexual harassment, and so on. Just because they manage (in some cases) to maintain outward pleasantries, it doesn’t mean they respect women. And, “chances are” they’ll divorce the woman they marry. Did they respect her?

Just as a reminder: I said that premarital sex points to a lack of respect for the other person. That can change, but it requires a corrective force. There aren’t many of those.

So what does respect look like to you? Disrespect? Since your definition differs from the dictionary one, could you please share yours?

---

Here’s a study that points to lack of concern/respect for the other person:

“Men’s interest in sex partners’ status traits and commitment (investment thoughts) declines with number of sex partners and permissiveness of attitudes”

“Men with more permissive attitudes and sex partners show less interest in target persons’ status traits, and report more willingness to copulate with target persons solely on the basis of a visual inspection of physical attributes, than do men with fewer partners and less permissive attitudes”

**Dominance, sexual activity, and sexual emotions.
John Marshall Townsend
Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 1998 21, pp 386-386 **

You’re turning this in to a rape discussion? Really?

Yes, when two people mutually decide to have sex I have a hard time viewing it as the man using her against her will.

Why is it wrong? Because I think that in telling him that I would be showing myself as a dishonest hypocrite. Either I love him completely and am willing to share everything with him, or I’m not.

You really strike me as someone who has been hurt sexually. Over and over again on threads you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction of “Premarital sex=promiscuity=will never be as good of a spouse as a virgin”. But there is so much more to being a good spouse that prior sexual history means very little.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say with that study. I don’t think anyone here is advocating marrying the guy who picks up a different woman every night. That would be foolish as he’s obviously not living a lifestyle that even allows him to build a relationship.

But a guy who gave up that lifestyle? Or someone who never had it but had sex with previous romantic partners? That’s a different situation and needs to be treated as such.

 

[1inICXC]

It isn’t inherently respectful. But from my perspective it isn’t inherently disrespectful either. It is what you make of it.

Actually, I think that if I refused to have sex with my fiance that would be wrong. I just can’t imagine saying “I love you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, I want to share everything with you, I want to give you everything I have to give, but don’t touch me.”

But I can appreciate that if you believe that marriage is a calling from god who demands that you don’t have sex prior to it you would have a different point of view. But I can’t fathom anyone saying that men who have premarital sex don’t respect women. I mean really, look around in your life. Your male friends, male relatives, male teachers, firefighters, military members, men who volunteer at shelters for battered women, fathers, brothers, husbands, etc chances are have had premarital sex in their lives, and it is pretty insane and farfetched to assume that all of those men have issues respecting women.

Yup, just looked around, Chevalresse (any relation to Chevalier ?) is right! It’s not that these men can’t respect women, they don’t even know how to look at women. They check them out. They can hardly relate to women in a non-sexual way and at then end of the day, for these men, it’s all about THEM, not the woman. I AM talking about my brother, my uncle, my dad, many of the men in our parish even, cops, construction men, sales men, friends etc. But the only reason I see this, is because ONE man showed me what true respect meant, otherwise I’d be agreeing with you not with Chevalresse.
Most men who engage in pre-marital sex have also some kind of experience with pornography and masturbation all of which exacerbates the problem.

 

[1inICXC]

You’re turning this in to a rape discussion? Really?

Yes, when two people mutually decide to have sex I have a hard time viewing it as the man using her against her will.

Why is it wrong? Because I think that in telling him that I would be showing myself as a dishonest hypocrite. Either I love him completely and am willing to share everything with him, or I’m not.

You really strike me as someone who has been hurt sexually. Over and over again on threads you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction of “Premarital sex=promiscuity=will never be as good of a spouse as a virgin”. But there is so much more to being a good spouse that prior sexual history means very little.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say with that study. I don’t think anyone here is advocating marrying the guy who picks up a different woman every night. That would be foolish as he’s obviously not living a lifestyle that even allows him to build a relationship.

But a guy who gave up that lifestyle? Or someone who never had it but had sex with previous romantic partners? That’s a different situation and needs to be treated as such.

You got it all wrong BEL, what makes you a hypocrite is giving yourself to him but withholding the marital commitment. It makes no sense to put any value on your sexual relations if you do not believe that they should only take place in the context of a committed, faithful relationship. It cheapens the sex and it cheapens the persons. You are not giving him anything much if you think it’s ok that that same thing was shared among others. Giving yourself to someone is only truly special if you believe you should be giving yourself ONLY to that person.

Major holes in your logic, even from a non-Catholic point of view.