Rebuttal: Karlo Broussard's False "A God-Bathed World" argument

  • Thread starter Thread starter ethereality
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
One could disagree with this in two ways: 1) Free will is an illusion, so the events are caused by the agents who are part of the system previously in time. 2) Free will is due to the brute fact of God (God making us from nothing and holding us in being each moment or else we would cease to exist, i.e. returning back to nothing), and so God is ultimately responsible for every action. Hence everything that begins to exist has a cause, no exceptions.
If 1 is true then no you couldn’t disagree. You would just have predetermined thoughts which you think are true.

God is responsible for each action in so far as he allows things to happen. This is called God’s permissive will.
Strictly speaking, this is incorrect. Put mathematically, x-x is different from 0. “x-x” is the absence of anything (“don’t have whatever you’re thinking of”), whereas “0” is the abstraction to refer to ‘nothing’. We commonly say x-x = 0, but this is literally an equivocation (or else a definition), us declaring the two to mean the same thing. But they literally are not the same thing.
This isn’t math. Philosophically nothing is the absence of anything. It is no thing.
This is again incorrect. A catholic priest pointed out to me years ago when I said ‘I wish I were dead’ (or ‘I wish I never existed’) that “No, you don’t: You just wish you weren’t in your present state. None of us have experienced what it is to be dead, so we don’t know what that’s like. Being is the only state we have ever experienced. We have no idea what non-being is.” This is a technical point, but important for critical thinking. ‘Nothing’, like 0, is an abstraction commonly defined as ‘not anything’, but we don’t actually conceive of it. Similarly, Jean Danielou wrote a book called /God and the Ways of Knowing/ explaining that all our knowledge of God is actually negative – that we cannot conceive of God, and consequently all our knowledge is about what God is not – e.g. God is not finite, not human, not capricious (subject to fickle emotional changes), etc. We can know aspects of God, e.g. that He is three persons yet one being, but we cannot know God in His entire nature.
The issue regarding death is that you haven’t experienced death. Nothing isn’t something we experience. I really can conceive of nothing. Nothing is in many ways easier to conceive of than God. Now I can’t experience nothingness obviously since I’d be a something.
 
Just because you don’t believe the arguments are valid or have true premises doesn’t mean that all other people think so. Not every man who believes there are sound logical proofs of God’s existence thinks every proof is sound. I happen to think several of the proofs are sound.
 
As Fr Larry Richards says, “Thank you, but I’m not interested in your
opinion”: I’m interested in what is true; facts, knowledge. If you think
there are sound proofs for God’s existence, I beg you to link to them so I
may go see them.

As for your comment about predetermined thoughts, it seems to me a
distinction without a difference. Disagreement doesn’t require free choice
(e.g. computers reject (name removed by moderator)uts and otherwise disagree with each other
regularly).
 
Last edited:
If you’ve surveyed the field of arguments then you know them. If you want to start a thread about specific arguments feel free to and we can discuss there.

Computers don’t disagree. They follow programming. The programming itself has no meaning apart from the human mind which used reason to create the program. The program never makes a decision. We use anthropomorphic language sometimes with computers. But that doesn’t mean the computer actually has reason.
 
Again, to disagree simply means to reject or to contradict: There is no
requirement that it be an unconditioned choice (“from free will”).
 
Last edited:
I don’t think computers can disagree or contradict. I do think they can reject. Regardless, computers aren’t like humans who can reason.
 
Heh! The next question is “Why is it his nature to exist?” And to that the answer would be: “It just is”… which is the acceptance of a brute fact. Any explanation is just pointing to a prior fact. Since these chains of explanations cannot lead to infinity, the “anchor” must be a brute fact. Every causal chain starts with a brute fact.
The brute fact must be something unseen to believe it!
 
Why do you think that?
Haven’t you seen the irony in what I said? What causes and sustain the universe must be visible to our sense/measurement/etc. To my understanding it is ironic to say that what sustain the universe is invisible to us!
 
Actually your expansion is incorrect. It should be something like: “On what grounds can anyone assert that God exists, because its nature is that it exists?”
No, your “expansion” is merely a different question.

My expansion was just that: taking “Why is it [God’s] nature to exist?” and replacing the word “God” with its meaning “someone whose nature is to exist”. And, of course, rewording a little so that it would be less awkward - and that gives us “Why does someone whose nature is to exist has nature that is to exist?”.
Explanations cannot extend to infinity. Any chain of explanations must start somewhere, and that starting point is a brute fact, something that cannot be “explained”, and does not need explanation - precisely because it is self-evident, because it is a “brute fact”.
Great! You just formulated a proof of God’s existence! 🙂

Now, it is not a very good proof (otherwise you would see what you have proved), but that’s still great progress! 🙂

One problem here is that “bare fact” is not something that is explained by itself. It is something that has no explanation at all.
The word: “universe” literally means “everything that exists”, so it cannot be explained.
Oh, does it? In that case, how comes the word “multiverse” exists?
Rather, I disagree with your apparent epistemology of seeing which assumptions lead to favorable conclusions and then choosing whatever is most favorable. Rather, I try to look at reality and make conclusions based on my experiences and my senses, because these are fundamental to action and communication.
I’m pretty sure that you do not. The method you describe would look like this: “I look to reality and my senses tell me that Moon has a colour of green cheese. Therefore I make a conclusion that Moon is made of green cheese.”.

Also, I said nothing about conclusion being or not being “favorable”. If you do not understand my position, it might be a good idea to ask about it.
Yes, of course. That gets to the point: Broussard must give us some reason for thinking the atoms themselves are not enough to account for the tree’s existence. I’m tired of repeating myself.
You mean you have not heard of electrons, protons, neutrons? 🙂

Perhaps you should take your time and formulate your position a bit more precisely?
You must give the critical thinker reason
to think the tree’s atoms require some supernatural cause.
There are several attempts to show that God exists, but every one I have seen rests on uncertain or else false premises.
You know, that’s an interesting double standard. You demand demonstrations from others but yourself offer grand declarations (“every one I have seen rests on uncertain or else false premises”) without any demonstration. As if your opinion was “true by default”.
 
Last edited:
For each event you want an answer to, you look at the preceding moment in time. You do not identify “the first” moment before declaring that your question has been answered. To do so is patently ridiculous: “Why did I fail this test at school?” “Because God created the universe!” Clearly we do not think this way. Rather, for each event we want a causal explanation, we look at what caused that particular event. Hence it is possible to have an infinite series of events, as long as each thing that begins to exist is caused by something pre-existing it in spacetime.
That you can be satisfied with finding a recent proximate cause means that you’ve truly arrived at the end of an infinite series of events? That’s quite a leap of reasoning.

By definition, it is not possible to reach the end of in infinite series of actual events.
 
Last edited:
My expansion was just that: taking “Why is it [God’s] nature to exist?” and replacing the word “God” with its meaning “someone whose nature is to exist”. And, of course, rewording a little so that it would be less awkward - and that gives us “Why does someone whose nature is to exist has nature that is to exist?”.
So you tried to define God into existence, by declaring him as a “necessary being”. Just another nonsensical approach.
Great! You just formulated a proof of God’s existence!
And you proved that you did not understand what I said.
One problem here is that “bare fact” is not something that is explained by itself. It is something that has no explanation at all.
It is not “bare fact”, it is “brute fact”. Which has no explanation and cannot have an explanation. And does not NEED an explanation. For you that would be God. For atheists it is the physical universe. We can show that the physical universe exists. You cannot do the same. All you can do is “declare” (without any justification) that the physical universe “needs” an external explanation.
Oh, does it? In that case, how comes the word “multiverse” exists?
We can come up with all sorts of new words, and assign arbitrary meanings to them. Good mental exercise without any special significance. But an excellent and fertile ground for fiction.
 
So you tried to define God into existence, by declaring him as a “necessary being”.
You know, if you ask “Why is it [God’s] nature to exist?”, you also “define God into existence”. 🙂
And you proved that you did not understand what I said.
Isn’t it interesting how you do not actually demonstrate that? 🙂

Nor do you try to reword what you said.

Just as if you had no answer… 🙂
“brute fact”. Which has no explanation and cannot have an explanation. And does not NEED an explanation.
Good…
For you that would be God.
Well, if God’s existence has an explanation in God’s essence being identical in existence, then we do have an explanation ready for it. It might be an explanation you do not like, but it is an explanation nonetheless.

After all, you did not define “brute fact” as having a “good” explanation (whatever that would mean).
For atheists it is the physical universe.
So much for Big Bang then? 🙂
We can show that the physical universe exists.
You can? Please do. That should be entertaining. 🙂

If you want an opponent for this, um, exercise, I think we had some solipsists around…
We can come up with all sorts of new words, and assign arbitrary meanings to them.
So, how about a more clear repudiation of “multiverse”? 🙂
 
Well, if God’s existence has an explanation in God’s essence being identical in existence
This is Thomistic nonsense. There is no “essence” without “existence”. As a matter of fact, there is no objective “essence”. Well, people sometimes call a concentrate an “essence”. Type into Google “essence of rum” and you can see.
So much for Big Bang then?
Do you have any idea what the big bang is?
If you want an opponent for this, um, exercise, I think we had some solipsists around…
OK. Let’s meet with those solipsists. I will use a cat o’nine tails on their back, and they can deny the objective external existence of it. Sounds like fun… but not for them.
So, how about a more clear repudiation of “multiverse”?
What for? It is just an unproven and unprovable hypothesis, not to be taken seriously.
 
This is Thomistic nonsense. There is no “essence” without “existence”. As a matter of fact, there is no objective “essence”. Well, people sometimes call a concentrate an “essence”. Type into Google “essence of rum” and you can see.
You know, that reminds me of a political joke from Soviet times: “Little Vladimir tries to learn a [Krylov’s] fable by heart: ‘Once God has sent a crow a piece of cheese…’. He asks: ‘Daddy, is there God?’. Dad answers: ‘Come on, is there cheese? It’s a fable!’.” (“1001 избранный советский политический анекдот” - Книга: 1001 избранный советский политический анекдот - joke nr. 401).

Now in here you complain that you do not believe in essences. And? Did you forget that you do not believe in God either?

Why should you care if the (for you) hypothetical explanation is real, if you believe what is being explained is not real either?

The question is different: would an explanation exist, if what is being explained did exist?

But, of course, if you do not have enough intellectual courage to make an assumption “Catholicism is true.” even for a short time, to show that it leads to a contradiction… 🙂
 
Now in here you complain that you do not believe in essences.
There are several usages for the word “essence”. I do not accept the Thomistic concept of it.
The question is different: would an explanation exist, if what is being explained did exist?
Why not? I would be more than happy to see a good explanation.
But, of course, if you do not have enough intellectual courage to make an assumption “Catholicism is true.” even for a short time, to show that it leads to a contradiction…
Oh, but I am more than willing to entertain the hypothesis that Catholicism is true. But only as a hypothesis, not as an axiom. Quite a few times some apologist asserted that the only correct way of analysis is to accept Catholicism (and everything it says) as “axiomatically true”. Of course in that case every problem, every argument to the contrary becomes “axiomatically” invalid. How could there be anything gratuitously evil, if God is axiomatically “good”. The existence of any “gratuitous suffering” becomes only “seemingly” gratuitous, due to our lack of information.
 
Oh, but I am more than willing to entertain the hypothesis that Catholicism is true. But only as a hypothesis, not as an axiom. Quite a few times some apologist asserted that the only correct way of analysis is to accept Catholicism (and everything it says) as “axiomatically true”. Of course in that case every problem, every argument to the contrary becomes “axiomatically” invalid. How could there be anything gratuitously evil, if God is axiomatically “good”. The existence of any “gratuitous suffering” becomes only “seemingly” gratuitous, due to our lack of information.
And how exactly does your “entertaining X as a hypothesis” differ from “entertaining X as an axiom”?
 
And how exactly does your “entertaining X as a hypothesis” differ from “entertaining X as an axiom”?
You gotta be kidding. Do you really have problems with understanding these concepts?

The definition of hypothesis:
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
And axiom:
a statement or proposition that is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true.
As I said, I am willing to accept the hypothesis that Catholicism is “provisionally true” and willing to investigate the corollaries. But I am not willing to accept that Catholicism is “self-evidently true”. A hypothesis can be falsified, an axiom is self-evidently true.

Did you try to pull my leg???
 
You gotta be kidding. Do you really have problems with understanding these concepts?
You seem to be using many words however you see fit. It seems a good idea to check.
As I said, I am willing to accept the hypothesis that Catholicism is “provisionally true” and willing to investigate the corollaries. But I am not willing to accept that Catholicism is “self-evidently true”. A hypothesis can be falsified, an axiom is self-evidently true.
That would simply mean that you are willing to make a temporary assumption that Catholicism is true (and see where it leads), but just refuse to become a Catholic.

Yet that is clearly not the case. Just look:
Quite a few times some apologist asserted that the only correct way of analysis is to accept Catholicism (and everything it says) as “axiomatically true”. Of course in that case every problem, every argument to the contrary becomes “axiomatically” invalid. How could there be anything gratuitously evil, if God is axiomatically “good”. The existence of any “gratuitous suffering” becomes only “seemingly” gratuitous, due to our lack of information.
As we can see, you recognised that the hypothesis does not lead to a contradiction in some way and thus… rejected that hypothesis as soon as possible - apparently, as “too dangerous”, the one you won’t be able to reject otherwise.

Not the most intellectually honest and courageous course of action, to say the least.
 
That would simply mean that you are willing to make a temporary assumption that Catholicism is true (and see where it leads), but just refuse to become a Catholic.
Exactly. Accepting it as a hypothesis. I would even be willing to entertain the hypothesis that the New Age assumption about the curative powers of crystals and pyramidal shapes are true. Then we could perform the necessary experiments and see if this hypothesis is true. The same applies to Catholicism. You are welcome to present your hypothesis about God’s benevolence, and marshal your supporting evidence. Can you?
As we can see, you recognised that the hypothesis does not lead to a contradiction in some way and thus… rejected that hypothesis as soon as possible - apparently, as “too dangerous”, the one you won’t be able to reject otherwise.
The contradiction does not need to be a logically inconsistent state of affairs. It is sufficient if the observed state of affairs is contradictory to the hypothesis. (Of course in the case of the Catholic teachings about God’s alleged attributes we arrive at a logical contradiction, too, but that is not the topic here and now.)

You mean you can “prove” that the seemingly gratuitous suffering is actually benevolent? I am all ears. But to say that “maybe” those seemingly gratuitous sufferings are actually blessings in disguise, and we would be convinced of this IF only God would take the time and effort to explain them to us… is NOT an argument. At best it is an empty wishful thinking. You need to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that God’s interference to prevent the Holocaust would have actually lead to an even worse state of affairs.

Until you can do that I will stick to the duck principle and accept that the “seemingly gratuitous” evil is “really” evil. Can you do the same?
Not the most intellectually honest and courageous course of action, to say the least.
Why not? To entertain your hypothesis and wait for your supporting argument is perfectly honest. What else would you expect me to do?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top