Rebuttals against pro-abortionists

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You just changed gears, a serious problem I have to point out. First you were at, “abortion is okay because fetuses are incapable of intellectual ability and don’t have hopes or dreams”, and you were attempting to prove those. Now you’re trying to justify abortion based on the fact that some pregnancies are unwanted. Stick with trying to prove your original claims before jumping to a new one.
 
MichaelFlores said:
Sure. Morality isn’t only about POTENTIAL greater goods. There are lots of horrible things you could justify by that logic. By that logic you could say that we’re obligated to make women pregnant 24/7 so that the “potential good” of every sperm and egg cell is not wasted.
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That is not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the fetus is created, therefore it will become a human one day, therefore we should be obligated to let that fetus become fully grown into a human. You want to kill a fetus that could become a human, yes? Was it the fetus’ fault that it was born by rape? No. Where is the justice in killing it then?
 
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Oh, okay. What I think is useful is useful for me. And whatever, you think is useful is useful to you. So…we can’t kill anyone who thinks they are doing something useful. Everyone thinks they are doing something useful. Therefore, we can’t kill anyone.
 
MichaelFlores said:
10 divided by 2=5 IS 2 going into 10 5 times, not a further explanation of why, since there’s nothing left to explain further. Just like 2 x 3 = 6 IS 3 x 2 = 6, not a further explanation of why. Do you understand that?
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10÷2=1

I assume that you’ll have a problem with this, but I can’t possibly see how, since the equation explains itself. 10 divided by 2 equals 1.

See where I’m getting?
 
Your claim was, to paraphrase again, “abortion is okay because fetuses don’t have intellectual ability and can’t have hopes or dreams”. Those are the statements I was asking an explanation for. I wasn’t asking for an explanation on something I hadn’t asked about (unwanted pregnancies).
 
Right. But the person who did the kidnapping might have thought it was fun. The person who was watching TV all day thought it was fun. But others thought that both kidnapping and watching TV were both not useful. I don’t see the difference.
 
Except that it is not.
It is human.

Do you really want to start down the road of basing the worth of someone based on intelligence?
 
But you said what is useful is determined by the individual. The person who is sitting in front of the TV thinks he is doing something useful even though others might not. If some might think that killing others is not useful despite what the killer thinks, couldn’t others think that sitting in front of a TV is not useful as well?
 
MichaelFlores said:
Age is just that, a number. I didn’t mention a number but a characteristic.
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Age measures maturity and a certain age is associated with the time when most children begin to reason. Thus, to have hopes and dreams. You’re avoiding the question because you know that at that age, you would be suggesting that people commit murder if they decided to take the life of child which you claimed had no hopes and dreams.
 
That is why they are called human rights.
Human is the qualifier.

Not smart human, or disabled human.
Just human rights.
 
MichaelFlores said:
Likewise poking fetus with neurotoxin and killing it doesn’t really hurt the fetus compared to the anguish the fetus is causing the pregnant woman.
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This is not the way that abortions are performed in the US. Abortions are terribly violent events. According to Dr. J.C. Willke:
5-12 weeks gestation: Suction-Aspiration is used - a thin tube with a knife edge is inserted into uterus, and suction is used to tear the baby’s body to pieces - or Dilation and Curettage is used - a loop-shaped steel knife is inserted into the uterus, cutting the baby and the placenta into pieces, which are then scraped out into a basin.
12 weeks to around 16 weeks: Dilation and Evacuation is used - the cervix is dilated and pliers are inserted into the uterus to seize a limp of the fetus, twist it, and tear it from its own body. This is done until the head remains, which is then crushed and pulled out. The pieces must be reassembled to ensure that all were removed.
16 weeks to 30 weeks: Salt poisoning - A needle injects a strong salt solution into the baby’s amniotic fluid. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it, while the salt acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. Labour contractions begin and the mother gives birth to a dead or dying baby.
30 weeks: Dilation and Extraction - forceps are inserted into the birthing canal and used to grasp one of the baby’s limbs. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal (alive! most likely kicking). Scissors are inserted into the skull, and then suction is used to suck the baby’s brains out. The dead baby is then removed.

Many researchers say that the unborn child can feel pain at around 20 weeks. However, this is still uncertain, seeing as brain waves are detected by the 10th week. The majority of abortions in the US occur after the 10-12th week.
Regardless of whether or not the fetus can feel pain however, one cannot deny the horrific violence involved. Are you Catholic or religious? I cannot imagine a human being standing before God and defending abortion. It is wrong. It is plain evil to inflict harm on such an innocent, defenseless being.
 
I think that’s a tough issue to argue with the pro abortion crowd. I will look forward to reading more posts. My friend was raped and stabbed twice and did become pregnant which is unusual (or so I’ve read before) after a rape due to trauma. I don’t know if that’s true statistically.

She recovered and found out she was pregnant. She truly about had a nervous breakdown wondering it this child would be evil, have genetic problems, every thought of this pregnancy disgusted her, and she did end up having an abortion because she said she would die carrying the child of this brutal rapist in her heart.

So now, I realize how hard it is. I might hope someone could carry the baby to term and give the child up for adoption but I finally wondered if I would have the courage if I was stabbed twice.

It was an X boyfriend that did this 2 years after they broke up and he had stalked her off and on.

I guess we should provide a ton of support for rape victims that are pregnant.

I don’t know a good answer to state after this experience.
 
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That’s a sad story. The difficulty we have when talking to non-believers about abortion (especially after rape) is that they just don’t accept our initial premise that taking a life is wrong in these circumstances. They aren’t coming to the table with the belief that all life is precious and that the fetus is a being with a soul from the moment of conception.

I’d say that the vast majority of people who don’t have a religious faith (and some of those who do) would feel that abortion when a woman becomes pregnant against her will is fully justified. Even though I strongly oppose abortion, I find it very hard to find the words to counter their argument.
 
In terms of being horrific, I am referring to the sucking out of the baby’s brain, the twisting and pulling off of the limbs, the burning with the salt… It is violent. Plus, how do we know the fetus feels no pain? Science is not yet conclusive on when it is exactly that the fetus develops this or other feelings. In the video The Silent Scream, you can actually see the unborn child kicking and trying to move away from the suction, so it makes you wonder: if an unborn fetus cannot feel pain, can it feel fear? We do not know at this stage.
MichaelFlores said:
I am a former devout Catholic who is now firmly atheist since April 2016.
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Ah okay, I see. I assumed you were Catholic or religious because this is a Catholic forum, sorry about that. I will pray for you Michael, and I don’t mean that in a condescending or patronizing way, I mean it out of love. I wish you all the best. God bless.
 
That’s really sad 😦 I hope your friend finds peace and healing. What a horrible experience to go through.
 
So, it is not the individual who defines what is useful. Otherwise, the killer could kill people because he says it is useful for his enjoyment. So if usefulness determines humanity, who decides what is useful if not the individual? Who decides that what the killer says is useful is not?
 
MichaelFlores said:
If I’m in a coma, and someone has a reason to poke me with a needle and thus poison me and kill me with neurotoxin, they have a right to dose. They’re not hurting me, and not doing it would hurt them. Any further explanation would be just repeating the same phrase over. Likewise poking fetus with neurotoxin and killing it doesn’t really hurt the fetus compared to the anguish the fetus is causing the pregnant woman. It’s as simple as that.
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You realize how this makes you sound, right? Are you sure this is a statement you want to stand by?

I’m only going to say this one more time: Yes, you have been dodging my questions. You say that abortion is okay because it will cause the woman pain. You have still failed to explain why someone’s fear of pain justifies killing their unborn child. Maybe by posing this ridiculous example, you’ll finally understand what I want from you:

Fetuses weigh about 1 ounce three months after conception, so it’s wrong to kill them.

What I have done here is take a scientific fact and claim that it supports my conclusion. I, as you, have failed to adequately explain why it supports my conclusion. You need to do this.
 
So you think it’s just to kill a fetus that could become a human, yes? Was it the fetus’ fault that it was born by rape? No. Where is the justice in killing it then?
 
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