Rebutting 'Christianity was a Flavian invention' conspiracy theory

[steve_b]

[sneaking in and keeping my head down and not wanting to get into a row about it but . . .]

Establishing the fates of the Apostles might be difficult with a critical audience.

Josephus, a Jewish historian, describes James, an apostle, was stoned to death. From “Antiquities of the Jews” Pg423 Ch IX
Concerning Albinus under whose procuratorship, James was slain; as alsowhat edifices were built by Agrippa

From my copy. I’ll look through to see if there are others

 

[hu324b]

The followers of David Koresh made all sorts of messianic claims about him. Each and every one of them interacted with him during his own lifetime. I’m sure some of their claims, which I don’t have the inclination to research, were every bit as dramatic as claiming that someone has risen from the dead - which is not a claim unique to Christianity by the way. The followers of Koresh were fully prepared to die, and did in fact die, for what they claimed to have witnessed personally.

The only point I am trying to make is that anyone - or any group of people - can make a claim, whether true or false, whether it be that Mohammad is a prophet of God, that Buddha achieved enlightenment or that Christ rose from the dead, and die for that claim.

Their willingness to die does not by itself prove the truth of their claims, it merely proves the strength of their commitment to them. This doesn’t make them liars. Many an honest and utterly convinced person is still misguided. As a lawyer of some years, I can vouch for how easy it is for eyewitnesses to end up being confused and demonstrably, if honestly, wrong.

Also, Buddhism is hundreds of years older than Christianity. Hinduism is thousands of years older. Neither religion shows any sign at all of dying out. Longevity in and of itself is, again, not necessarily a sign of the truth of a religion.

I am Catholic, proudly so, and very convinced of the truths of Catholicism. But not by its martyrs nor by its longevity.

David Koresh was not there - did not walk with Jesus and was not an apostle - he did not SEE the risen Lord - he got caught up in his power over his followers

The apostles walked with Jesus heard his teachings saw his crucifixion and and witnessed Christ rise from the dead - big difference - the apostles are the witnesses which they have past on to us. No other faith is like Christianity - to claim the impossible - Jesus came back from the dead.

The books of the Prophets do not tell the coming of David Koresh who claimed to be Jesus second coming - he was a false messiah which the bible warns of - they were a dooms day cult - much like Jimmy Jones - both Baptist Ministers.

I do get your point.

 

[LilyM]

None of them can claim the following.

As Paul taught, (paraphrased)

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, appear to the apostles and many others after He dies, talks to them again, eats with them again, and is seen by these same eyewitnesses, rising back to heaven, then we’re idiots for what we believe, we’re dead in our sins, so eat drink and be merry folks for tomorrow we die.

(without the paraphrase)

1 Cor 15:
*14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

snip

32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Come to your right mind, and sin no more. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.*

This is in no way meaningfully different from a Muslim cleric standing up and telling his congregation “if Mohammad is not a true Prophet of God, the last and greatest Prophet, messenger of the true faith of Islam, then my preaching and your belief are in vain, you are not following God rightly, and you may as well get out of the mosque, eat all the pork you want, drink all the alcohol you want, and get rid of your burkas”.

Apart from the obvious - which is that Paul’s claims are true, the clerics are not.

 

[steve_b]

This is in no way meaningfully different from a Muslim cleric standing up and telling his congregation “if Mohammad is not a true Prophet of God, the last and greatest Prophet, messenger of the true faith of Islam, then my preaching and your belief are in vain, you are not following God rightly, and you may as well get out of the mosque, eat all the pork you want, drink all the alcohol you want, and get rid of your burkas”.

Apart from the obvious - which is that Paul’s claims are true, the clerics are not.

Here’s another example. (thinking in different terms)

I’ve heard people use as a rebuttal, if only Jesus was here in the flesh, He could convince ANYONE.

We know that’s not true. He could do that but He won’t force ANYONE to believe against their own free will.

Example:

Jn 6.

Why did His own disciples leave Jesus saying who could listen to this and they left Him, not to follow Him anymore [Jn 6:66]

What did Jesus say?

He said He knew in advance those disciples didn’t believe from the beginning… But He gave them the teaching anyway knowing they were going to leave Him and not follow Him again… ( they couldn’t say in the end, they weren’t given a chance ) And one of the scariest passages in scripture IMV, Jesus didn’t go after them. He let them go. Meaning everything He taught them as a consequence if they didn’t follow what He prescribed, came down on them when they died.

Aquinas put it into the following words

“For one who has faith no explanation is necessary, to one without faith no explanation is sufficient.”

People will continue to argue ad nauseum. They won’t believe in Jesus, nor the apostles, nor Church Tradition, it’s just all made up nonsense. That’s why there is separation at the end of life between sheep and goats. The fight then is finally over forever.

Paraphrasing Paschal wager

At death, which all of us go through,

If the skeptic is right about this and I’m wrong about Jesus and Catholicism , then no big deal. No fault no foul. We’re dead. No consequences good or bad for anything we’ve done good or bad. We could be the worst person humanity has ever known or will know, or the best, we’re dead forever. Lights out.

If otoh, I’m right and the skeptic is wrong, the skeptic is screwed…forever. Since there is no clock in the after life, there is no notion of seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, eons, it’s just the eternal now.

Since by virtue of our soul, given to us by God at our conception, we are immortal. We die in the body but our soul lives forever. Memory, intellect in tact forever in the transition to the next life. The question then is, … WHERE is forever going to be in the next life? Heaven or Hell.

Again, the skeptic will disagree with this wager as well. We’ll see who’s right and who’s wrong now won’t we?

Thus the wager, the bet, the gamble, the roll of the dice?

Gotta tell the skeptic though, once dead they can’t pull back their wager if they find out they made a mistake.

If I made a mistake otoh, and there is no next life, Who cares? It doesn’t matter. We’re dead forever.

Not so, however if the skeptic is wrong. Hence the wager