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pnewton
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But this suggestion requires humility. It is a proudful position to elevate one’s own preference (when preference is called for) above instruction given by legitimate ecclesial authority.
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misericordie
Guest
Exactly, that is why I will obey THE VATICAN: AGAIN: THE VATICAN, which gives all Catholics the right to kneel.
One must read very carefully more than what the US Bishops write, what comes out of ROME, otherwise we will have a myopic view of the Church, and worse yet, we will fall into the so called “American Church” schism. Only ONE Church: the Roman Catholic Church. Lets not dance with convenience here: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1055.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif
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katherine2
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The Vatican instrusts the faithful to follow the norms legitimately estabihsed by the particular authority, in this case, the USCCB.
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pnewton
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Who has called the American Church in schism? Surely not the pope, or we would be in schism. Any one else has no authority to do so. Whoever came up with this label is using inflammatory sensationalism.
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misericordie
Guest
My point: there is NO SUCH thing as the so called: “American Church.” There is the Roman Catholic Church in the United States: "AMERICA in the vatican’s eyes is ONE single area: North, Central, South America is AMERCIA! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_5v.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_7.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_28_1.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_28_3.gif
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Mysty101
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But there are US adaptations approved by the Vatican. No one is telling you to give up your Tridentine Mass, just stop saying the US norms, which have been approved by the Vatican, are not valid.
Are you saying that we must say the US Church? And if we use that term, will you agree that the %between% adaptations are valid? (Sign of Peace, too???)
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Isadore96
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I wish everybody would start kneeling. When I kneel, I can look up and the priest has little trouble placing Jesus on my tongue. When I stand, he has to reach up, and I get nervous Jesus will fall off my tongue. And another thing, the altar server should use the patten as well. I know that under todays way its OK to stand, receive in the hand, etc, but I personally don’t feel like that is acceptable to me.
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misericordie
Guest
Okay all, here I must repeat: THE CHURCH IS NOT MADE UP OF SUBDIVISIONS: THERE IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! TO WHICH THE US BISHOPS AND ALL BISHOPS VOW TO OBEY: THE HOLY SEE AND THE POPE!! Oh, yes, there are also the great Byzantine Church, and catholic rights.
Why dance with the issues and make the US Bishops as infallible as the Pope: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1055.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_115.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_119.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_111.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_113.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_101s.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_146_29.gif
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Deacon_Ed
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Not quite. The Catholic Church is composed of 23 sui iuris (Iin their own right) Churches who agree to be in communion with each other. The Latin Church (usually called the Roman Catholic Church) is certainly the largest (bigger than all the others together), but it is only one of the Churches.
The term “Byzantine” refers to a Rite which is used by 14 of those 23 Churches. In the United States, the term “Byzantine Catholic Church” refers to the Ruthenian Catholic Church, only one of the 14 that use the Byzantine Rite.
Deacon Ed
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misericordie
Guest
Deacon Ed:
well, iam sure that in the 23 sui iuris there is NO such thing as: The official AMERICAN Church. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_33_3v.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_15_9.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_7.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gif
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Deacon_Ed
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There is an “American Catholic Church” – but they are part of the Old Catholics and not in communion with Rome.
With regard to the topic under discussion, however, the Latin Rite Church (Roman Catholic) has granted authority over certain aspects of the liturgy to the nation conference of bishops in each country. This is to allow for any necessary inculturation of the liturgy that may be appropriate (such as permitting liturgical dancing in Africa where dance has a sacred as opposed to profane context). Therefore, any legtiimate options chosen by the appropriate national conferences are just as valid as those chosen by Rome.
Deacon Ed
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misericordie
Guest
Deacon Ed:
I must correct you here deacon: NO, the USCCB is not on “equal” footing with Rome, sorry, Don’t compare even in liturgical matters THE USA bishops with the HOLY SEE. As you well know many a times has ROME corrected “abuses of power” and several bishops of the USA who thought they were ABOVE Canon Law and Liturgical Law. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_24_2.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_9_16.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_6_2.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_6_4.gifThere is an “American Catholic Church” – but they are part of the Old Catholics and not in communion with Rome.
With regard to the topic under discussion, however, the Latin Rite Church (Roman Catholic) has granted authority over certain aspects of the liturgy to the nation conference of bishops in each country. This is to allow for any necessary inculturation of the liturgy that may be appropriate (such as permitting liturgical dancing in Africa where dance has a sacred as opposed to profane context). Therefore, any legtiimate options chosen by the appropriate national conferences are just as valid as those chosen by Rome.
Deacon Ed
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Deacon_Ed
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Either I wasn’t clear, or you didn’t understand what I thought I was communicating.
This has nothing to do with individual bishops. This has to do with those areas of liturgy in which the Holy See has granted authority to the national conference of bishops. When, for example, the USCCB makes a statement with regard to how a particular part of the liturgy (again, in areas where the Holy See has granted them competence), their statement carries the same weight as if it had come from Rome. Now, Rome can certainly clarify the *interpretation *of what the USCCB says, and the Holy Father can override what the USCCB says, but unless that happens the faithful (lay and clergy) are bound to follow those directives.
Deacon Ed
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misericordie
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Deacon Ed:
But you DO realize that as YOU said: Rome can Overide any USCCB “documents.” It actually has on various times. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_7.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_28_1.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_28_2.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_9_32.gifEither I wasn’t clear, or you didn’t understand what I thought I was communicating.
This has nothing to do with individual bishops. This has to do with those areas of liturgy in which the Holy See has granted authority to the national conference of bishops. When, for example, the USCCB makes a statement with regard to how a particular part of the liturgy (again, in areas where the Holy See has granted them competence), their statement carries the same weight as if it had come from Rome. Now, Rome can certainly clarify the *interpretation *of what the USCCB says, and the Holy Father can override what the USCCB says, but unless that happens the faithful (lay and clergy) are bound to follow those directives.
Deacon Ed
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Deacon_Ed
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Might I, respectfully, suggest you read my posts more carefully. I said the Holy Father can override USCCB documents. If they have made them particular law, no one other than the Pope can override them (of course, the pope can delegate that authority to others, but it still amounts to the pope overriding it).
Deacon Ed
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FrmrTrad
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Speaking of standing, kneeling, sitting, communion, and all that, does anyone know of a book that summarizes the history of ‘liturgical postures’ throughout the history of the Church (including all 23 parts of the Church)?
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Deacon_Ed
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There is no one book that covers the liturgical history of all 23 Churches. In fact, the history for several of the Churches has, unfortunately, been lost (especially that of the Indian Churches – Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara).
In general, however, the Eastern Churches tend to stand for communion. For the Byzantines, in fact, there is no kneeling on Sundays at any part of the Liturgy (other than a prostration which looks like the Moslems at prayer by the priest and deacon after the consecration).
Fr. Josef Jungmann, S.J., covers some of this in his “Mass of the Roman Rite.”
Deacon Ed
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FrmrTrad
Guest
Thanks Deacon. Another point I have wondered about is how pews and kneelers came into use; apparently it has something to do with the Protestants. Would Jungmann’s book address that also?
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Julian_Peters
Guest
Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
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