received a email.

[arther1045]

Can anyone help me out here. The other day I corrected someone online who was saying that Catholics hold Mary above Jesus and other typical anti Catholic opinions. Today when I got online I had an email waiting for me. Can someone help me responde to this point by point. I am not nearly as knowlegable as some on this board and while I know basically why his arguments are wrong it would take me a week to research point by point. Thanks.

Here is the email.

skalapunk Re: article
Re: article May 06, 2008
If you say so.

There’s none so blind as those who choose not to see.

I’m sick of you people saying that you pray to Mary to ask her to pray for you.

Shes dead. She was a human. She was born of a human, a descendant of Adam. All have sinned and there are NONE righteous the Bible says. It repeatedly states this. So don’t tell me that the RCC teaches nothing unbiblical when it tries to claim that Mary was righteous. She was a human sinner, stained by original sin as much as you and I are.

She can’t even hear your prayers. She’s not God. she’s not omnipotent. She’s not omnipresent. She’s dead. In the grave. Rotting. Her soul is in heaven. Her body is rotting until the resurrection just like all Christians that die.

She can’t hear your prayers. Why do you think she can? What makes you think she has any power at all to intercede for you?

Christ is the intercessor. Christ is the mediator. I worship Christ alone. You look to Mary for help. I look to Jesus who is God for help, for He alone can provide any help!!!

Quit trying to pretend that Jesus didn’t know the Bible would be written. Jesus is GOD.

GOD wrote the Bible. JESUS is GOD. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures. The Bible is God breathed. The Bible is Jesus breathed.

The Holy Spirit commanded the apostles to write the Bible. The apostles, with God’s authority, told us to that the scriptures were sufficient for a Christian to be PERFECT.

PERFECT in doctrine and practice and Holy living.

Yep, the scriptures are PERFECT for that. Read it yourself:

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

The RCC is pagan in origin. Christ did not leave earth with the Roman Catholic Church behind. The NT letters were written to churches scattered abroad, not to one church in Rome.

The letters were written to churches everywhere who were under no rule of a single man. Their head is Christ, just as scripture says.

The churches that received letters (which had ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY about Mary) were:

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea., Corinth, Philipi, Collossi,

The apostles commanded us to rebuke any Gospel that they didn’t preach, even if an angel from heaven were to come preaching.

What is their gospel? Why, it’s quite simple to find out, BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT DOWN.

It’s the Bible.

The Roman satanic pagan religion says salvation by works. Salvation by baptism. Salvation by rituals. Salvation by merit. Salvation by physical actions. Salvation by self righteousness. Salvation by yourself. Salvation by your priest. Salvation by bread. Salvation in an organization. Salvation in the confessional. Salvation as an infant. Salvation as an old man by some ritual.

The Bible says Salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus followed by good works as a result of Him who “works in us to do His good pleasure”

Salvation is of God, not of an old white man who wears a fish-shaped hat of pagan origin.

Salvation is of Christ who atoned completely for sins on the cross, not by my own atonement in an attempt to help Christ along to save my soul with my own merit which is as filthy rags.

Salvation is of the Holy Spirit who regenerates when, where, and how He pleases, like the wind blows.

Salvation is by grace, not of works, so that no man can boast in his own salvation. So that no flesh can glory in His sight.

Salvation is followed by good works as a result of obedience and Christ working in us who is the “author and finisher of our faith”

You’re in a lie. Your religion is out of the pit of hell and drags men’s souls to hell. Crack open your dusty bible. Throw away your catechism. Destroy your statues and pictures of Mary.

Christ alone
Scripture alone
Faith alone
Grace alone
For God’s glory alone.

The scriptures win. The Roman pagan religion, and everyone who worships it, lose.

Period.

 

[tundramom]

Wow. I’ve heard (and held!) those arguments myself.

I would ask them to discuss this rationally without rancor or not at all.

in Christ (and in the Catholic Church!)
Steph

 

[love4mary]

With all honesty,this person sounds like he is consumed by hate and is hard of heart/ears to anything you say.

But “point by point”,right here in Catholic.com you will find everything you need to address his misunderstanding.

After addressing him though,if he still chooses to attack the Church, then I would simply send him one last e-mail stating you will pray for him and then end it, if for no other reason then your own piece of mind.

 

[sawman]

Wish I could help, but were I to say much more than this, I’d be in a state of sin. That e-mail was very inflamatory.

God Bless!!!

 

[Cairisti]

Sheesh! Looks like you got a “live” one there. There are so many falsehoods in his rant I wouldn’t know where to begin. Maybe he needs to read some of the early church fathers to begin with.

And as far as his tirade about Mary…

 

[water]

ignore it, but you can break it into smaller subjects and discuss it here in a better manner than to deal with people who have that kind of mind set.

That person is out to win argument. Are you?

 

[cathgal]

That was too much and it would be a waste of time to go thru it all, especially with someone such as that.

You need to get to the root of all those questions to even make any progress.

You might ask him where did the Bible come from. Was it all in one neat book with all the gospels intact. It did not always existed you know.

How does he know that the Bible is inspired. Why not the Koran.
If he accepts the Bible as inspired, by whose authority is he accepting.

He will realize that the authority he has accepted is the same one he’s persecuting.

Talk 'bout ‘biting the hand that feeds you’.

 

[Eden]

Why not just invite the person here and we can go point by point together? Otherwise, my first question would be to ask him who had the authority to set the Canon. I’m sure he’s not familiar with the fact that it was Catholic bishops who set the Canon and then sent the Canon to Pope Boniface in Rome for approval. He’s relying on the authority of the Catholic Church to tell him which books were inspired.

 

[po18guy]

Nothing you, or anyone on this earth can say, will change this hardened heart or ignorant mind. Pope Benedict cannot reason with this individual, because this is not a reasonable individual. What chance do you or I have? This is quite possibly a fallen away Catholic who left due to sin. Take no offense at what this person said, as he/she is living in darkness.

Ah, but the Holy Spirit, now there is something else entirely! Since Pentecost Sunday approaches, pray! pray! pray! for this horribly misguided soul. It is the Holy Spirit who accomplishes all conversion of heart, and that is exactly what is needed. All attempts at “dialog” will result in hurt feelings and frustration (yours) and an increasingly intractable anti-Catholicism (him/her).

Invoke the Holy Spirit, the forgotten Helper, our Advocate, Who alone accomplishes conversion of hearts. Do so before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and, with faith and patience, you will see results. Even more important, God will see the results.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Eden]

A few more questions.

1. We know where many of the saints and apostles were buried. Since he says Mary is in heaven and her body is in the ground rotting, ask him where she was buried.
2. Ask him how Jesus could speak to Elijah and Moses when he was praying during the Transfiguration, even though they were dead.
3. Ask him what “full of grace” means in Luke 1:28. These were the words of God directly, carried by the angel. How can one be stained by sin, yet “full” of grace. If one is FULL of grace, how is there any room for sin? The phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

You can see more about this at:

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IV

1. Why did Jesus found a CHURCH and not spend his time on earth writing the Bible? Does this not show what His priority was? He was training disciples to lead His Church, not writing an instructive manual. This is important. Scriptures can only be understood in the context of the Church he founded.
2. About intercessory prayer, ask him why he asks people to pray for him if intercessory prayer is forbidden. Unlike this person, Catholics believe that those souls in heaven are fully alive in Christ, not dead!

That’s just a start.

 

[inthecloud]

You must be a real masochist to discuss with a hatefilled fundie with room temperature intelligence.
I cant.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I really wish I had more time to devote to this because I really enjoy this type of stuff but real quick …

There’s none so blind as those who choose not to see.

I’m sick of you people saying that you pray to Mary to ask her to pray for you.

Shes dead. She was a human. She was born of a human, a descendant of Adam. All have sinned and there are NONE righteous the Bible says. It repeatedly states this. So don’t tell me that the RCC teaches nothing unbiblical when it tries to claim that Mary was righteous. She was a human sinner, stained by original sin as much as you and I are.

So God, who finds sin extremely offensive allowed His only Son to live in the body of a sinner for 9 months? Highly unlikely! And, as was already pointed out, an angel sent by God said that Mary was full of grace – one can not be full of grace if one is a sinner.

She can’t even hear your prayers. She’s not God. she’s not omnipotent. She’s not omnipresent. She’s dead. In the grave. Rotting. Her soul is in heaven. Her body is rotting until the resurrection just like all Christians that die.

She can’t hear your prayers. Why do you think she can? What makes you think she has any power at all to intercede for you?

Scripture has it that Elijah was taken straight up to heaven. If God did this for Him, why does he doubt that God wouldn’t do this for His own mother especially when she was sinless? Also, if she wan’t taken to heaven, where is her grave?

With regards to not being able to hear our prayers, the bible says that there is much rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents. Thus, those in heaven ARE aware of our prayers and actions.

Christ is the intercessor. Christ is the mediator. I worship Christ alone. You look to Mary for help. I look to Jesus who is God for help, for He alone can provide any help!!!

The bible says that the prayers of the rightous are heard and answered before the prayers of those who are less rightous. Who could be more rightous than those already in heaven and free of all sin? What is wrong with asking them to pray for us?

Quit trying to pretend that Jesus didn’t know the Bible would be written. Jesus is GOD.

GOD wrote the Bible. JESUS is GOD. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit inspired the scriptures. The Bible is God breathed. The Bible is Jesus breathed.

The Holy Spirit commanded the apostles to write the Bible. The apostles, with God’s authority, told us to that the scriptures were sufficient for a Christian to be PERFECT.

PERFECT in doctrine and practice and Holy living.

Yep, the scriptures are PERFECT for that. Read it yourself:

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

And all of this was done THROUGH the Catholic Church. That is recorded history – the bible was put together by the Catholic Church in the late 4th century.

The RCC is pagan in origin. Christ did not leave earth with the Roman Catholic Church behind. The NT letters were written to churches scattered abroad, not to one church in Rome.

The letters were written to churches everywhere who were under no rule of a single man. Their head is Christ, just as scripture says.

The churches that received letters (which had ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY about Mary) were:

Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia
Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea., Corinth, Philipi, Collossi,

The bible tells us that God does not change from one generation to the next and all through the OT, God interacted with mankind through ONE human interface. Since God does not change, it stands to reason that God continues to interact manknind through one human interface – the Pope who leads the Catholic Church.

The apostles commanded us to rebuke any Gospel that they didn’t preach, even if an angel from heaven were to come preaching.

What is their gospel? Why, it’s quite simple to find out, BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT DOWN.

It’s the Bible.

I don’t follow what point he is trying to make.

The Roman satanic pagan religion says salvation by works. Salvation by baptism. Salvation by rituals. Salvation by merit. Salvation by physical actions. Salvation by self righteousness. Salvation by yourself. Salvation by your priest. Salvation by bread. Salvation in an organization. Salvation in the confessional. Salvation as an infant. Salvation as an old man by some ritual.

The Bible says Salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus followed by good works as a result of Him who “works in us to do His good pleasure”

Salvation is of God, not of an old white man who wears a fish-shaped hat of pagan origin.

Salvation is of Christ who atoned completely for sins on the cross, not by my own atonement in an attempt to help Christ along to save my soul with my own merit which is as filthy rags.

Salvation is of the Holy Spirit who regenerates when, where, and how He pleases, like the wind blows.

Salvation is by grace, not of works, so that no man can boast in his own salvation. So that no flesh can glory in His sight.

Have him read the book of James where is says that we are not saved by faith alone and that faith without works is dead. That completely discredits everything he said.

You’re in a lie. Your religion is out of the pit of hell and drags men’s souls to hell. Crack open your dusty bible. Throw away your catechism. Destroy your statues and pictures of Mary.

Christ alone
Scripture alone
Faith alone
Grace alone
For God’s glory alone.

The scriptures win. The Roman pagan religion, and everyone who worships it, lose.

Period.

Our religion is from the pit of hell and yet he follows the bible that our religion wrote. What does that say about the people who follow the book that the Catholic Church wrote?

 

[BeeSweet]

arther, is this person a Christian? If so, then you have something to work with, but if not, best ignore the e-mail.

If the person is a Christian, then start with the Communion of saints. Most protestants don’t understand the communion of saints very well if at all. Mary is a saint, we ask all saints to pray for us, her in particular because she is the mother of God.

And as for Jesus being the intercessor and mediator, this makes no sense since Jesus is God. Does He mediate with Himself? This person has no understanding of Christology or the Trinity in general.

I personally wouldn’t go beyond those two points, and if you receive a nastygram in return, let it go, and block the address from sending you anymore mail.

Tell this person you’re happy to answer questions, and engage in civil dialog, but accusations will fall on deaf ears. Then tell them if they want to argue, go to forums.catholic-questions.org/ and they’ll find lots of willing participants.

Cast not peals before swine… (Matt 7:6)

 

[Ronald_E]

Just ask him why he is so mean.

 

[strngrnrth]

Wow, he sounds like he’s been reading Dave Hunt and Ralph Woodrow. Ask him to check out Woodrow’s site; he recanted long ago. This stuff about the scattered churches; where did they go? Conspiracy theories alwys fall apart when you ask why no one was around to remember and tell the story the whole time, e.g. why these scattered non-Catholic churches didn’t survive and take root everywhere. If he says it’s because they were suppressed, then you ask how. If he describes a campaign that simply would have been beyond the capacity of anyone int he early Middle Ages, point that out. Also ask how them anyone knows it ever happened. If all the evidence of such a thing was destroyed, then there is no evidence, and he is just guessing. If it wasn’t all destroyed, then, why didn’t anyone bring it out in 1500 years? And if there never was any, well, then it didn’t happen. Big changes like the usurpation of the entire church would leave copious evidence. So, I’d hit the conspiracy/takeove/counterfeit church leg of this thing, because it’s so weak.
And yes, send him here.