Receiving Communion and Mortal Sin

[Brooklyn]

@Brooklyn, saying something is one thing. Telling them they are in mortal sin is another. Culpability has not yet been passed on or accepted by 8th graders. No one trusts them with their own life yet, physical or spiritual. I am a CCD teacher, and I teach Confirmation. I have warned my students that they will ultimately be responsible for their own souls and cannot blame their parents when they are adults, but the key there is when they are adults. You should always say something to the priest when you see something wrong or scandalous, and if you do not trust his judgment, then write a letter to the bishop, but mortal sin is not for you or any of us to decide. Missing mass is not an intrinsic evil, and even if it were, most 8th graders don’t meet the standard for full consent, especially if they have much younger siblings under their watch.

BTW, if he wanted to tell them not to receive communion, he should not have asked for hands on who didn’t go to Mass. His next duty would be to ask why, and that belongs inside the confessional.

I agree that missing Mass is not something you would know by natural law. But again, I and most everyone in my generation and before understood as little kids that missing Mass on Sunday was a mortal sin, and you were not to receive communion in mortal sin. Are you saying kids today are so stupid they can’t understand what previous generations could understand?

The age of reason in the Catholic church is 7 years old - long before adulthood.

"The name given to that period of human life at which persons are deemed to begin to be morally responsible. This, as a rule, happens at the age of seven, or thereabouts, though the use of reason requisite for moral discernment may come before, or may be delayed until notably after, that time. "

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=301

If the age of reason is not until adulthood, then kids should not be receiving communion or confirmation until adulthood, and that is not the way it works. This quote does talk about “moral discernment”, but you don’t need “moral discernment” to know that missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.

You may forget what it was like to be a kid, but even though I’m fairly old, I remember it well, and I remember knowing what a mortal sin was. We had to know in order to receive first communion. Has that changed in the church too?

We are not talking about making big decisions here. We are talking about a basic teaching of the Catholic Church - missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin. There is no reason in the world why a kid almost in high school can’t understand that.

It is thinking like you demonstrate in your post that is spiritually weakening the Catholic Church and why so many Catholics do not know nor value their religion.

I would agree that the priest should not have asked for a show of hands. But the fact remains that he did, and he needed to follow through, and he didn’t.

 

[Brooklyn]

Would you please analyze my post and show to me where I did judge and condemn you?

Missing Mass on Sunday is grave matter and not automatically mortal sin!

Did you talk to the priest about it making your wishes known? Or you are just here condemning him for a sin of omission, while omitting to do the same thing with him? Are your own preferences on how to do things the best for those children? Yours is the same argument of someone asking “when did you stop beating your wife?”

What is next? Is the priest even more guilty if next time he will skip to ask for a raise of hands to check the Sunday attendance? Is that a double whammy?

It just happened yesterday, and the whole point of my post was to ask what other people thought I should do with this. Instead, I get posts like yours telling me I’m crazy for even questioning what happened.

You are telling me basically that I have no right to be upset about what happened, that the fact that most of the kids did not attend Mass on Sunday and still went to communion should not be any concern of mine. I am somehow commiting the sin of judging by doing this.

Why are you fighting with me? Why do you think it is okay for kids to admit they didn’t go to Mass and then nothing should be said to them? Why do you think the priest even asked the question in the first place? Obviously he didn’t think it was okay, but my problem is, he didn’t tell them exactly why it isn’t okay. He did not say it is a mortal sin. I have a problem with that. You appararently do not.

 

[DV56]

It just happened yesterday, and the whole point of my post was to ask what other people thought I should do with this. Instead, I get posts like yours telling me I’m crazy for even questioning what happened.

You are telling me basically that I have no right to be upset about what happened, that the fact that most of the kids did not attend Mass on Sunday and still went to communion should not be any concern of mine. I am somehow commiting the sin of judging by doing this.

Why are you fighting with me? Why do you think it is okay for kids to admit they didn’t go to Mass and then nothing should be said to them? Why do you think the priest even asked the question in the first place? Obviously he didn’t think it was okay, but my problem is, he didn’t tell them exactly why it isn’t okay. He did not say it is a mortal sin. I have a problem with that. You appararently do not.

I think you have a right to be upset. It was a perfect time for the priest to indicate to these children the importance of Mass on Sunday. The question is though, did these kids miss Mass because they wanted to miss Mass, or was it because their parents don’t go and therefore the kids don’t have a chance to go. Now I know that the kids were probably just as happy not to go, but the mortal sin may have been with their parents for being negligent in their duties.

I guess 8th graders are around 13? I’m too old to remember how old I was in 8th grade!

It seems as though the parents are responsible. But you are correct, the priest had a perfect opportunity to teach.

 

[Cristiano]

It just happened yesterday, and the whole point of my post was to ask what other people thought I should do with this. Instead, I get posts like yours telling me I’m crazy for even questioning what happened…

Can you please show where I stated that you are crazy for wondering about things?

…You are telling me basically that I have no right to be upset about what happened, that the fact that most of the kids did not attend Mass on Sunday and still went to communion should not be any concern of mine. I am somehow commiting the sin of judging by doing this…

Can you please show to me where I stated that you have no right to be upset? Where did I say that you are committing a sin in judging things?

…Why are you fighting with me?..

Where I am fighting you? I just making you aware of what things could be and could not be. This is called analyzing the situation.

…Why do you think it is okay for kids to admit they didn’t go to Mass and then nothing should be said to them?..

Can you please say where I stated that nothing should be said to them?

…Why do you think the priest even asked the question in the first place? Obviously he didn’t think it was okay, but my problem is, he didn’t tell them exactly why it isn’t okay. He did not say it is a mortal sin. I have a problem with that. You appararently do not.

How do you know that he did not tell them exactly why is not ok? Where you present in the school religion classes before the Mass? Do you know what the kids are taught in the religion classes?

… I have a problem with that. You appararently do not.

You are correct I do not have a problem with the priest not using a specific moment as a teaching opportunity. I trust that he used his judgment and prudence.

I encourage you to stick to what people say and to reply to that. Do not create a straw man that does not add anything useful to the discussion.

 

[I_Fortuna]

That’s exactly what it is, sacrilege, not to mention scandal, and it’s running way too rampant in the Church.

Hold on a minute, these are children! It is also my understanding that we go to confession at least once a year and that is what is required not every time we commit sin. We would never get out of confession!

I don’t think I have seen anywhere where that this is a mortal sin and chastizing children openly in front of everyone is not the answer to get them to church. If I had been one of those children I may never have gone back. No wnder so many leave.

Clearly there seems to be a misunderstanding and a holier than thou attitude concerning this issue.

It is the parent who needs to see to their children getting to mass. Good grief they already go to a Catholic School. How much do you want to cram down their throats to drive them away?

We are all sinners Brooklyn including you, IMHO, you are a gossip and trouble maker. Address the priest directly and stop going behind his back !

 

[Cristiano]

…But you are correct, the priest had a perfect opportunity to teach.

I am sorry but I do not understand why that was the perfect opportunity to teach? Can you please elaborate?

I tell you that from my point of view, those children would have been singled out in a very embarrassing manner for a situation that is beyond their control. Humiliation is not an effective teaching method, but it is an effective punishing method. Do those children need to be punished? What is the goal here to teach or to punish the children?

 

[DV56]

I am sorry but I do not understand why that was the perfect opportunity to teach? Can you please elaborate?

I tell you that from my point of view, those children would have been singled out in a very embarrassing manner for a situation that is beyond their control. Humiliation is not an effective teaching method, but it is an effective punishing method. Do those children need to be punished? What is the goal here to teach or to punish the children?

I wasn’t advocating admonishing them. I never said that.

But the priest did have an obligation to continue to impress upon them the importance of going to Mass. The graces that are received. The Real Presence that we take in when receiving the Eucharist. The worship of God. He didn’t have to embarress them and I’m not saying he should have, but he could have stressed the wonderful opportunity that is missed by not going to Mass.

Does that help?

And please remember that I did put the responsibility on the parent.

 

[I_Fortuna]

The rest of you who support Brooklyn are just enabling her/him to go behind a priest’s back and undermining him. This is wrong and goes against the forum rules.

You are relying on gossip from someone who is too cowardly to confront the priest directly, face to face…

You all should be ashamed to take Brooklyn’s part in this and supporting this view without all the facts. Don’t our priests have enough trouble? Honestly, you are acting like protestants and gossips.

Do you think Jesus would treat little children this way!!!

I don’t!

 

[DV56]

The rest of you who support Brooklyn are just enabling her/him to go behind a priest’s back and undermining him. This is wrong and goes against the forum rules.

You are relying on gossip from someone who is too cowardly to confront the priest directly, face to face…

You all should be ashamed to take Brooklyn’s part in this and supporting this view without all the facts. Don’t our priests have enough trouble? Honestly, you are acting like protestants and gossips.

Do you think Jesus would treat little children this way!!!

I don’t!

Wow! Did you read what I said? I have nothing to be ashamed of!

 

[karennascargo3]

I don’t view it as a matter of judging, rather that I think that the OP is just concerned about if these children are not ‘taught’ what is expected of them as a Catholic, how else will they learn?

Obviously the parents are negligent and not teaching them, so it then becomes the duty and obligation of the church itself (in this case the priest who missed a perfect opportunity).

I doubt the priest intentionally didn’t bring it up, rather just missed the opening to do so due to a million other things on his mind. So it then become the OP’s duty and obligation (since she witnessed it and God has placed this burden on her heart) to respectfully speak with the priest to make him aware of this missed opportunity, and to possibly help work through some solution to rectify teaching these children of their Catholic obligations.

I also don’t think you should stop there. If God has placed this burden on your heart, you need to do whatever you can to help. You could even commit to faithfully praying some Novenas for these children for their hearts to open for all God desires of them. Remember that at that age, this is a highly emotional and difficult time for children – especially for Catholic children growing up in NYC.

 

[ProVobis]

Hold on a minute, these are children! It is also my understanding that we go to confession at least once a year and that is what is required not every time we commit sin. We would never get out of confession!

I don’t think I have seen anywhere where that this is a mortal sin and chastizing children openly in front of everyone is not the answer to get them to church. If I had been one of those children I may never have gone back. No wnder so many leave.

Clearly there seems to be a misunderstanding and a holier than thou attitude concerning this issue.

It is the parent who needs to see to their children getting to mass. Good grief they already go to a Catholic School. How much do you want to cram down their throats to drive them away?

We are all sinners Brooklyn including you, IMHO, you are a gossip and trouble maker. Address the priest directly and stop going behind his back !

Where were you when the nuns were chewing out those over the age of reason (7)? Take it from me, they were much worse on kids then the Church is on parents today. And you know what? The nuns were right.

 

[DV56]

Where were you when the nuns were chewing out those over the age of reason (7)? Take it from me, they were much worse on kids then the Church are parents today. And you know what? The nuns were right.

They wacked my knuckles a few times

But I believe the OP has a valid point. The post you quoted is quite harsh. And that’s describing it politely.

 

[Cristiano]

I wasn’t advocating admonishing them. I never said that.

But the priest did have an obligation to continue to impress upon them the importance of going to Mass. The graces that are received. The Real Presence that we take in when receiving the Eucharist. The worship of God. He didn’t have to embarress them and I’m not saying he should have, but he could have stressed the wonderful opportunity that is missed by not going to Mass.

Does that help?

I was not accusing you of trying to punish the children. I was just saying that from my point of view that would be a consequence at that time.

I agree with the priest has an obligation to make sure that the students are taught, I am just questioning the implication that he did not do so by saying that he missed that “opportunity”.

I do not say that he would have embarrassed them. I would expect that the humiliation would come from the classmates that go to Mass every Sunday. Adults in these forums jump immediately to the conclusion that someone doing something grave is automatically in a state of mortal sin. Can you imagine a bunch of middle schoolers?

I am speaking from dealing with and teaching middle school students (catholic school and not) in a very frequent manner. They can behave in really nasty ways, and it is not prudent to make one of them a possible target even if it is for teaching purposes. Sometime it is better to go a different route. However, this is my own opinion and not a universal truth.

What I keep questioning is the so called “opportunity” and the fact that it appears that nothing else was done. I am not questioning the fact that the teaching should happen. As a catechist I tend to be hard on the parents because they are the ones that determine the situation and not with the children. In the case of the children I just repeat the same things over and over even if it is in different contexts. Repetita juvant!

 

[ProVobis]

They wacked my knuckles a few times

But I believe the OP has a valid point. The post you quoted is quite harsh. And that’s describing it politely.

I agree. If anything the nuns weren’t harsh enough. And not only with the kids.

 

[DV56]

I was not accusing you of trying to punish the children. I was just saying that from my point of view that would be a consequence at that time.

I agree with the priest has an obligation to make sure that the students are taught, I am just questioning the implication that he did not do so by saying that he missed that “opportunity”.

I am not say that he would have embarrassed them. I would expect that the humiliation would come from the classmates that go to Mass every Sunday. Adults in these forums jump immediately to the conclusion that someone doing something grave is automatically in a state of mortal sin. Can you imagine a bunch of middle schoolers?

I am speaking from dealing with and teaching middle school students (catholic school and not) in a very frequent manner. They can behave in really nasty ways, and it is not prudent to make one of them a possible target even if it is for teaching purposes. Sometime it is better to go a different route. However, this is my own opinion and not a universal truth.

What I keep questioning is the so called “opportunity” and the fact that it appears that nothing else was done. I am not questioning the fact that the teaching should happen. As a catechist I tend to be hard on the parents because they are the ones that determine the situation and not with the children. In the case of the children I just repeat the same things over and over even if it is in different contexts. Repetita juvant!

I think we’re on the same page. I think the OP is probably thinking along the same lines.

 

[Brooklyn]

Can you please show where I stated that you are crazy for wondering about things?

Can you please show to me where I stated that you have no right to be upset? Where did I say that you are committing a sin in judging things?

 

[Brooklyn]

The rest of you who support Brooklyn are just enabling her/him to go behind a priest’s back and undermining him. This is wrong and goes against the forum rules.

You are relying on gossip from someone who is too cowardly to confront the priest directly, face to face…

You all should be ashamed to take Brooklyn’s part in this and supporting this view without all the facts. Don’t our priests have enough trouble? Honestly, you are acting like protestants and gossips.

Do you think Jesus would treat little children this way!!!

I don’t!

You need to go back and read my original post. My question is what should I do with what I think was a possible sacrilege, i.e., receiving communion in a state of mortal sin. I felt it was absolutely necessary for the priest to say that if you deliberately missed Mass on Sunday, you are in a state of mortal sin and if you have not gone to confession, you should not receive communion. How is that going behind the priest’s back? Did I say his name, did I name the church? I kept it completely anonymous. I was looking for advice.

I think you have a real problem. Our kids need to be taught what the Church teaches. I don’t know how that is gossiping.

Calling me a coward, accusing me of gossiping - I guess that isn’t how the moderator sees it, because this thread has not been shut down.

You need to chill a bit.

P.S. My name is Mary (she).

 

[Brooklyn]

Hold on a minute, these are children! It is also my understanding that we go to confession at least once a year and that is what is required not every time we commit sin. We would never get out of confession!

If you commit a mortal sin, you are completely spiritually dead, cut off from the grace of God. I hope that if and when you may commit a mortal sin, you will immediately go to confession because you can’t receive the sacraments until you are absolved, and if you should die in mortal sin, you will go to hell. That is the teaching of the church. People use to go to confession every week, and it is still not a bad idea. Maybe you never sin, but most of the rest of us do.

I don’t think I have seen anywhere where that this is a mortal sin and chastizing children openly in front of everyone is not the answer to get them to church. If I had been one of those children I may never have gone back. No wnder so many leave.

 

[Cristiano]

I was there when he spoke to them. I know exactly what he told that at that time. I am assuming that they were taught the Sunday Obligation in religion class, and that is why I assume they know missing Mass is a mortal sin, and therefore, they are responsible.

 

[ProVobis]

1- Grave matter is not automatically mortal sin.

It’s probably better to confess it even if it’s not, at least for the peace of mind. I can’t always determine if I committed a mortal sin by missing Mass. Clearly it is when someone says I know it’s grave and I won’t go but skipping Mass doesn’t have to be that definite, does it? After all, it’s a grave matter of omission.