Receiving Communion while living in grave sin

[CatholicSooner]

1 John 5:16-17 (RSV): “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal.”

Sorry but that doesn’t answer what I was looking for. I was looking for biblical text about receiving communion while living in mortal sin and also about what is grave matter.

Not to be too blunt about it, but where is your authority to declare such a thing?

It’s my opinion. Think back to a time when you were living in mortal sin. Did you totally reject God? I certainly didn’t. I still loved God.

You might want to consider that you’ve lost touch with the enormity of sin, and how heinous it truly is. Remember the first command, to love God with all our heart, soul, and effort.

ok:shrug:

 

[Veronica97]

Oh believe me, her friends and family have let her know that we don’t think this is a good idea.

And sorry if I mispoke but they are not getting married in the church.

Okay, sorry-- I misread your line, “They would be getting married in the church…” You meant they would get married in the church IF they could. I would think that your friend could still not receive communion before the wedding. Why? Because you say she is already living with the man, and not only that, but she is PLANNING to commit mortal sin by getting married to a man without annulment, outside the Catholic Church. Planning to commit mortal sin is a mortal sin in and of itself. The Church teaches this and it makes sense because when you plan to commit mortal sin, you’ve already committed it in your heart.

 

[CatholicSooner]

Okay, sorry-- I misread your line, “They would be getting married in the church…” You meant they would get married in the church IF they could. I would think that your friend could still not receive communion before the wedding. Why? Because you say she is already living with the man, and not only that, but she is PLANNING to commit mortal sin by getting married to a man without annulment, outside the Catholic Church. Planning to commit mortal sin is a mortal sin in and of itself. The Church teaches this and it makes sense because when you plan to commit mortal sin, you’ve already committed it in your heart.

Very true.

It’s a sad situation.

Is it wrong to pray for a marriage to not work out? I mean that would be devastating but more devastating if she is married to him for the rest of her life.

I hope she wakes up. It is at the point that if anyone says anything to her about it, it will just push her away further.

 

[Veronica97]

Very true.

It’s a sad situation.

Is it wrong to pray for a marriage to not work out? I mean that would be devastating but more devastating if she is married to him for the rest of her life.

I hope she wakes up. It is at the point that if anyone says anything to her about it, it will just push her away further.

I think you could pray for her to wake up, to realize her sin, and to repent. I would also pray for God’s Will. I doubt that it’s God’s Will is for the marriage to work out; however, He COULD work things out. I mean, in my case, He did, but my husband was only married once…5 or 6 marriages is a bit more complicated. Not only that, but there is a REASON those marriages didn’t work out, and if the man is the reason for one or more of those marriages not working out (such as he is incapable of being faithful or because he has a personality disorder, etc.), then it might be difficult or impossible for him to marry anyone validly, even if he does get all the annulments. Above all, pray for the salvation of both your friend and her fiance–God will take care of the rest.

 

[zz912]

Sorry but that doesn’t answer what I was looking for. I was looking for biblical text about receiving communion while living in mortal sin and also about what is grave matter.

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,k that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”l 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.* 28A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself*. 30That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. 31If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; 32but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world

St. Paul couldn’t be more blunt about it.

It’s my opinion. Think back to a time when you were living in mortal sin. Did you totally reject God? I certainly didn’t. I still loved God.

Matthew 21:28 “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ 29He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went. 30The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go. 31* Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.”

Emotional attachment, or feelings towards God, or expressions of love to God are meaningless if we rebel from His commands in our actions.

 

[CatholicSooner]

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,k that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”l 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.* 28A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself*. 30That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. 31If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; 32but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world

St. Paul couldn’t be more blunt about it.

He is very blunt about unworthingly receiving the Lord. But again, I haven’t seen scripture saying what constitutes unworthiness. B/c let’s face it. We are all unworthy. We are all sinners.

If the best that can be said is that it is was the church says, then that is fine. I can live with it. I just want something that I can use in discussion with nonCAtholics.

 

[ae22]

As far as discussion with non-Catholics…the first place ANYONE should go in that scenario is to the issue of authority.

Did Jesus give Peter, and ONLY Peter, the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven? Yes, He did.

Did Peter use a relatively obscure psalm, and one that had nothing to do with the issue at hand, to determine that Judas needed to be replaced in Acts 1? Yup.

Did Peter unilaterally decide that the Church would no longer force Gentile converts to become circumcised, even though this had no precedent? Indeed, he did.

Did Paul, who not only didn’t know Jesus during His life (and thus didn’t even meet the definition of an Apostle as laid out in Acts 1:21-22) lay hands on Timothy in order to infer Holy Orders on him? Yes.

Furthermore (for those who believe in sola fide), did James, in James 2:14-26, not talk about how faith without works is dead? Did John, in 1 Jn 2:3-4, not say that the only way to know Jesus is to keep His commandments? Did our Lord Himself not say the same thing in Jn 14:15?

The Church HAS the authority to bind and loose. It is the ONLY church (other than the Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox) who can claim apostolic succession. There was NO OTHER CHURCH at that time. Unless the Baptists, or the Presbyterians, or the Lutherans, or what have you were secretly an invisible Christian community who was the TRUE church for 1500 years before the heresies of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others (and if that were the case, I would argue that the gates of Hell prevailed, since there was no visible Christian church that was true to God’s will for 1500 years), then the Catholic Church is correct about authority, and non-Catholics are simply separated from Christ’s church and are worshiping imperfectly.

 

[CatholicSooner]

As far as discussion with non-Catholics…the first place ANYONE should go in that scenario is to the issue of authority.

Did Jesus give Peter, and ONLY Peter, the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven? Yes, He did.

Did Peter use a relatively obscure psalm, and one that had nothing to do with the issue at hand, to determine that Judas needed to be replaced in Acts 1? Yup.

Did Peter unilaterally decide that the Church would no longer force Gentile converts to become circumcised, even though this had no precedent? Indeed, he did.

Did Paul, who not only didn’t know Jesus during His life (and thus didn’t even meet the definition of an Apostle as laid out in Acts 1:21-22) lay hands on Timothy in order to infer Holy Orders on him? Yes.

Furthermore (for those who believe in sola fide), did James, in James 2:14-26, not talk about how faith without works is dead? Did John, in 1 Jn 2:3-4, not say that the only way to know Jesus is to keep His commandments? Did our Lord Himself not say the same thing in Jn 14:15?

The Church HAS the authority to bind and loose. It is the ONLY church (other than the Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox) who can claim apostolic succession. There was NO OTHER CHURCH at that time. Unless the Baptists, or the Presbyterians, or the Lutherans, or what have you were secretly an invisible Christian community who was the TRUE church for 1500 years before the heresies of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others (and if that were the case, I would argue that the gates of Hell prevailed, since there was no visible Christian church that was true to God’s will for 1500 years), then the Catholic Church is correct about authority, and non-Catholics are simply separated from Christ’s church and are worshiping imperfectly.

Good post, thanks!

 

[Emily2014]

With the greatest respect for your obvious concern - does it really matter to anyone except the couple concerned and Our Lord.
To receive The Body Of Christ fills us with His grace. He wants us to receive Him so why should they not. God alone knows their hearts.

 

[CatholicSooner]

With the greatest respect for your obvious concern - does it really matter to anyone except the couple concerned and Our Lord.
To receive The Body Of Christ fills us with His grace. He wants us to receive Him so why should they not. God alone knows their hearts.

God does know their hearts. And I told my wife and the girl’s sister that it isn’t up to us if they are living in mortal sin. We don’t know their hearts.

But we are also the custodians of christ and want to protect him/other people from further mortal sin

 

[zz912]

With the greatest respect for your obvious concern - **does it really matter to anyone except the couple concerned and Our Lord. **
To receive The Body Of Christ fills us with His grace. He wants us to receive Him so why should they not. God alone knows their hearts.

The answer is YES.

Jesus comes to us like He did 2000 years ago in Bethlehem. He is COMPLETELY vulnerable in the Eucharist. He is entrusting Himself into our care. And as the Church, we are responsible for how we care for Him.

We are responsible for trying to prevent Him being harmed, insulted, profaned, degraded, and blasphemed. Just as He came as a completely helpless baby, He trusted Mary and Joseph to care for Him. Even today He comes completely and utterly unguarded and helpless, and entrusts us with Him.

We shoul never blandly ignore degradation of the Eucharist.

 

[steve_b]

I’m looking more for biblical context of why it is ok to receive communion with venial sin and not mortal sin and who decides what is a grave matter.

Look at the consequences of these sins. More importantly look up the actual passages yourself. If one dies in these sins, they go to hell. THAT’s the definition of mortal sin. And notice when you look these passages up yourself, there’s no discussion on this.

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious (αἱρετικὸν heretic) man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy,(πόρνος ) is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ), factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers ( διχοστασίαι )don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ται ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Revelation 21:8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

CS:

And I wouldn’t call mortal sin a TOTAL rejection of God.

When mortal sin sends one to hell, it’s because one chose deadly sin over God.

 

[CatholicSooner]

Look at the consequences of these sins. More importantly look up the actual passages yourself. If one dies in these sins, they go to hell. THAT’s the definition of mortal sin. And notice when you look these passages up yourself, there’s no discussion on this.

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious (αἱρετικὸν heretic) man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy,(πόρνος ) is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ), factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers ( διχοστασίαι )don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ται ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Revelation 21:8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• 2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

When mortal sin sends one to hell, it’s because one chose deadly sin over God.

now we are getting somewhere…thanks.

But I would caution you on making a definite statement that if you die with a mortal sin you are going to Hell. You may believe that, and it may be what Jesus and God has written, but I hope you aren’t preaching this to people. Only God knows a person’s heart and has the authority to decide this.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It still comes around to the Tradition/Scripture and not one but both. God the Father blessed St Peter as mentioned a few times. Jesus Christ gave him the Keys which are deposited in the Church. The Bible doesn’t tell you to make the sign of the Cross along with a host of other aspects of apostolic faith, you have to pay close attention to what they are telling you and especially with confession and prayer. You are practicing keeping your deadly habits or the seven deadly sins in check and by Gods grace, we are all sinners, the idea is to learn how to stop offending God and by His Grace and cooperation with it. Its a matter of submission and many have a problem here valuing their own opinion, like Adam and Eve.

 

[steve_b]

now we are getting somewhere…thanks.

But I would caution you on making a definite statement that if you die with a mortal sin you are going to Hell. You may believe that, and it may be what Jesus and God has written, but I hope you aren’t preaching this to people. Only God knows a person’s heart and has the authority to decide this.

I’m not saying anything the CCC doesn’t say. 1035

So I would caution, that no one should make squishy what God made forceful. THAT could cause certain people to relativize what is meant to be a firm consequence for mortal sin and particularly dieing in mortal sin.

I would just add, all those scripture passages and consequences, were written under the inspiration of the HS. Which means they came from Jesus, the one who will judge everyone, living and dead. John 16:12-15

 

[Emily2014]

Replying respectfully to ZZ912:
I don’t understand what you mean.
We receive the Living Body of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Thus we receive the strength and grace we need.
I have never thought of Jesus as ‘vulnerable’ in any way, nor in need of our puny efforts to ‘protect’ Him. He is the Almighty God and His love, His strength upholds us.
It is surely a little presumptuous to suggest that anyone genuinely seeking that spiritual food could in any way ‘degrade’ the Blessed Sacrament. It is not up to us to look upon others in judgement. God alone knows each one of us. We are His beloved children.

 

[CatholicSooner]

It still comes around to the Tradition/Scripture and not one but both. God the Father blessed St Peter as mentioned a few times. Jesus Christ gave him the Keys which are deposited in the Church. The Bible doesn’t tell you to make the sign of the Cross along with a host of other aspects of apostolic faith, you have to pay close attention to what they are telling you and especially with confession and prayer. You are practicing keeping your deadly habits or the seven deadly sins in check and by Gods grace, we are all sinners, the idea is to learn how to stop offending God and by His Grace and cooperation with it. Its a matter of submission and many have a problem here valuing their own opinion, like Adam and Eve.

Yes of course, but it helps to know WHY the tradions are what they, for the simply fact that we know why we believe what we believe instead of “b/c the church told us to”.

I’m not saying anything the CCC doesn’t say. 1035

So I would caution, that no one should make squishy what God made forceful. THAT could cause certain people to relativize what is meant to be a firm consequence for mortal sin and particularly dieing in mortal sin.

I would just add, all those scripture passages and consequences, were written under the inspiration of the HS. Which means they came from Jesus, the one who will judge everyone, living and dead. John 16:12-15

I understand, but this is not the way to evangalize imo.

Replying respectfully to ZZ912:
I don’t understand what you mean.
We receive the Living Body of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Thus we receive the strength and grace we need.
I have never thought of Jesus as ‘vulnerable’ in any way, nor in need of our puny efforts to ‘protect’ Him. He is the Almighty God and His love, His strength upholds us.
It is surely a little presumptuous to suggest that anyone genuinely seeking that spiritual food could in any way ‘degrade’ the Blessed Sacrament. It is not up to us to look upon others in judgement. God alone knows each one of us. We are His beloved children.

I understand what you are saying but the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ. He deserves the upmost respect. Would you allow somebody to hurt or abuse your children without trying to protect them?

 

[Joy2day]

This is all true and I believe this. But I’m looking for more of an answer than because the church says so. That doesn’t play well in discussion.

I can understand this. It is like, we have to use our intellect and will and pray for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Its like when Jesus asked St Peter who He was, St Peter said “you are the son of the living God” and Jesus said “you could not have known these things from yourself, but only if My Father had revealed them to you” (or words to that effect).

It is like that with these matters I think. We cannot become puppets, divorcing our ability to think and reason, yet at the same time we must try to be docile to the will of God as it is stated even if it is not personally revealed to us. Maybe, yes, we do drive the nails into Christ on the Cross, but if we are not aware of this, or do not believe it, then Jesus will say ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’. Those people driving the nails into Him had not had it revealed to them by God as to who Jesus was. Nevertheless the nails were driven in.

I don’t think it assists either that in previous generations it was a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday or not fast 1 hour before communion.

Its like, there are some things via the use of natural reason, that a person should be able to decipher as wrong, and then there are other things which are given via the use of supernatural reason/inspiration which give a person knowledge to decipher right and wrong. So, in today’s society where there has been a lot of emphasis on ‘being your own person’ and ‘thinking for yourself’ and a lesser respect for tradition and traditional authority, (even to the extent of introducing flat management structures in corporations etc), it can be a challenge to just submit blindly to that which you do not understand. Pray, that really is the only answer, and inform yourself as much as possible with the reasons the Church gives. Try your best. Trust in Jesus.

 

[steve_b]

Originally Posted by steve b

Don’t bring up the CCC or scripture?

Our ideas on evangelization, are obviously different

 

[CatholicSooner]

Don’t bring up the CCC or scripture?

Our ideas on evangelization, are obviously different

I was strictly speaking about telling people they are going to Hell if they die in mortal sin because that is what the church tells us.

It may be true. God gets to decide that though and evangalizing using that line will be fruitless imo.