Receiving Communion

[zab]

cuf.org/FaithFacts/details_view.asp?ffID=253
This link provides the answers you need regarding postures and gestures during Mass.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

True, a female can be an extraordinary minister of holy Communion. The Church allows that. I have received the Blood of Christ from a female extraordinay minister of holy Communion.

And non-ordained males are allowed to be EMHCs.

 

[CallistusPM]

In the OF it is required to say Amen after the Eucharistic Minister says “The Body/Blood of Christ”

Some ministers (which includes priests) will say the “Amen” for you, perhaps to remind you of what you need to respond. But the rubrics is not to give Communion unless the proper response is said, so sometimes they will do it for you. I personally don’t agree with that but th ats besides the point./QUOTE

“Amen” was never required in the traditional rite. Another innovation I suppose introduced from Vatican II. But, I really don’t see where it matters one way or another. Amen is a prayer. All prayers should and are accepted by Almighty God. True, there are times and places for proper prayer responses but this is trivial. CallistusPM

 

[ConstantineTG]

@Mark

Do you think this section of the GIRM would support genuflecting even during Communion?

1. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.

During Mass, three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of the host, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Certain specific features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place (cf. nos. 210-251).

If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.

Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.

Ministers carrying the processional cross or candles bow their heads instead of genuflecting.

 

[MarkThompson]

@Mark

Do you think this section of the GIRM would support genuflecting even during Communion?

Arguably. However, a standard principle of interpretation is that the specific trumps the general. In other words, the GIRM specifically states what you are supposed to do in the instance of receiving Communion, and so in that specific case it trumps the general rubric. Interpreting it the way you’ve suggested would also imply, absurdly, that the bishops expect you to genuflect at Communion, but failed to put such a notice in the relevant place, failed to explain when you should do it, and duplicated it with an additional bow without telling you which you should do first. Finally, it is not clear that going up to receive Holy Communion should be equated with “pass[ing] before the Most Blessed Sacrament.”

EDIT: Furthermore, as you quoted from RS:
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.
Therefore the “due reverence” to be given is that set forth in “the same norms,” i.e. the norms determined by the Conference of Bishops, and not anything set forth elsewhere.

 

[CallistusPM]

MarkThompson #19 mentioned that Rome has clarified that the faithful have the right to receive kneeling at the OF if they so choose.

There are many places where it’s indicated that the normative posture in the OF of the Mass in the US is standing for receiving Holy Eucharist in the hand or on the tongue. Our bishop who is quite orthodox recently published Instructions on receiving Communion properly in which he states “The proper posture for receiving Communion is standing.”

The Bishops of the United States have decided that the normative posture for receiving Holy Communion should be standing.

The GIRM says 43. §4 “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.” But unless the bishop has “derogated from this norm in an individual and extraordinary circumstance” in this situation then the priest is doing whatever he wants, against the norms of the US Bishops i.e. illicit as stated in the USCCB directive…

“The bishops of the United States have decided,” and therein lies the problem. Should this not come under the purview of Rome? This begs the question: “Why do we have a supreme pontiff?” If the church is to be indeed “catholic” - hence “universal,” it must have a governing authority over all sacred things. For example, the pope wishes ALL BISHOPS provide kneelers for receiving communion and communion ON THE TONGUE. This is still the universal norm (but you wouldn’t know it, would you?) This has been rejected since Vatican II by bishops. The pope has also exhorted priests to say Mass facing the east, not the people. This would place the priest’s backs to the people most of the time as ALL attending should face the east because that was the position of the resurrection. All churches, if possible, should be constructed in this manner and all Masses said ad orientem. This too has been rejected.The pontiff’s call for greater use of the Tridentine Rite has also fallen on deaf ears. There is no unified policy regarding Catholic politicians who publically favor abortion, homosexuality, etc…
Again the question: Where is Rome? CallistusPM

 

[ConstantineTG]

“The bishops of the United States have decided,” and therein lies the problem. Should this not come under the purview of Rome? This begs the question: “Why do we have a supreme pontiff?” If the church is to be indeed “catholic” - hence “universal,” it must have a governing authority over all sacred things. For example, the pope wishes ALL BISHOPS provide kneelers for receiving communion and communion ON THE TONGUE. This is still the universal norm (but you wouldn’t know it, would you?) This has been rejected since Vatican II by bishops. The pope has also exhorted priests to say Mass facing the east, not the people. This would place the priest’s backs to the people most of the time as ALL attending should face the east because that was the position of the resurrection. All churches, if possible, should be constructed in this manner and all Masses said ad orientem. This too has been rejected.The pontiff’s call for greater use of the Tridentine Rite has also fallen on deaf ears. There is no unified policy regarding Catholic politicians who publically favor abortion, homosexuality, etc…
Again the question: Where is Rome? CallistusPM

I think the problem here is your understanding of the roles of the Bishops and the role of the Pope. Norms in each diocese are set forth by the Bishop, not the Pope. A Bishop’s Conference ensures that norms are uniform within territories where people can freely roam, namely within a country. However this does not take away the authority of one Bishop over his diocese. They can still opt not to conform with the decision of the Bishop’s Conference unless they have binded themselves to through a contract.

Canon Law and all other Church documents are pretty clear about the authority of Diocesan Bishops over their territory. Its false to think that the Pope would micromanage every diocese in the world.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Arguably. However, a standard principle of interpretation is that the specific trumps the general. In other words, the GIRM specifically states what you are supposed to do in the instance of receiving Communion, and so in that specific case it trumps the general rubric. Interpreting it the way you’ve suggested would also imply, absurdly, that the bishops expect you to genuflect at Communion, but failed to put such a notice in the relevant place, failed to explain when you should do it, and duplicated it with an additional bow without telling you which you should do first. Finally, it is not clear that going up to receive Holy Communion should be equated with “pass[ing] before the Most Blessed Sacrament.”

EDIT: Furthermore, as you quoted from RS:
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.
Therefore the “due reverence” to be given is that set forth in “the same norms,” i.e. the norms determined by the Conference of Bishops, and not anything set forth elsewhere.

In short, if I want to insist my ways I’ll just argue paragraph 274 to death

 

[suko]

“The bishops of the United States have decided,” and therein lies the problem.

I kind of agree with this too. The bishops may agree to something, but it definitely does NOT make it the “best” thing to do, ESPECIALLY when the pope himself isn’t too fond of it. If I’m not mistaken, I remember reading a recent article where the Pope himself made it obligatory for those receiving communion from him to be KNEELING and on the tongue, and that one of his hopes in doing this will help restore the realization of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and to hopefully pave the way for this to become the norm everywhere. Believe me, when it comes to this, there is NOTHING “disobedient” in any way, shape or form if one chooses to kneel during communion, despite what a priest or bishop may say.
Trust me, if one feels it in their heart to kneel before Christ as you receive Him, then that person SHOULD do it. Definitely.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I kind of agree with this too. The bishops may agree to something, but it definitely does NOT make it the “best” thing to do, ESPECIALLY when the pope himself isn’t too fond of it. If I’m not mistaken, I remember reading a recent article where the Pope himself made it obligatory for those receiving communion from him to be KNEELING and on the tongue, and that one of his hopes in doing this will help restore the realization of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and to hopefully pave the way for this to become the norm everywhere. Believe me, when it comes to this, there is NOTHING “disobedient” in any way, shape or form if one chooses to stand during communion, despite what a priest or bishop may say.
Trust me, if one feels it in their heart to kneel before Christ as you receive Him, then that person SHOULD do it. Definitely.

The Pope has the right to do that as the Diocesan Bishop of his own Diocese (Rome), since standing or kneeling is a decision to be made by the Local Ordinary of his Diocese. Don’t confuse this with the other titles of the Pope. As Archbishop of the Diocese of Rome, he functions and has the same rights and authority as the Archbishop of New York or any other Bishop of any other Diocese.

 

[suko]

The Pope has the right to do that as the Diocesan Bishop of his own Diocese (Rome), since standing or kneeling is a decision to be made by the Local Ordinary of his Diocese. Don’t confuse this with the other titles of the Pope. As Archbishop of the Diocese of Rome, he functions and has the same rights and authority as the Archbishop of New York or any other Bishop of any other Diocese.

Yes, but again, for an issue like this, if one feels it in their heart to kneel before Christ when receiving communion, they should NOT let the U.S. “norm” get into their head and effect their decision whatsoever. There are other cases where we should follow the norm, but this is definitely not one which we should let “influence” our decision.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, but again, for an issue like this, if one feels it in their heart to kneel before Christ when receiving communion, they should NOT let the U.S. “norm” get into their head and effect their decision whatsoever. There are other cases where we should follow the norm, but this is definitely not one which we should let “influence” our decision.

So would you go into a Byzantine Divine Liturgy and kneel for Communion?

 

[suko]

So would you go into a Byzantine Divine Liturgy and kneel for Communion?

I’m afraid I’m not familiar with that particular liturgy, but so long as I am capable, I would. If they won’t allow it, I would just go to another Catholic parish, preferably of the Roman rite of course.
Of course, I would never deny myself communion (nor should others), say if a priest literally was denying me communion on the spot and asked me to stand, then I would. Or if there were no other Catholic parishes around who accepted kneeling, then I would stand. I believe we should never deprive our self of receiving Him (when given the chance) who gave us everything and wants so much to enter into the very depths of our heart and soul.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m afraid I’m not familiar with that particular liturgy, but so long as I am capable, I would. If they won’t allow it, I would just go to another Catholic parish, preferably of the Roman rite of course.
Of course, I would never deny myself communion (nor should others), say if a priest literally was denying me communion on the spot and asked me to stand, then I would. Or if there were no other Catholic parishes around who accepted kneeling, then I would stand. I believe we should never deprive our self of receiving Him (when given the chance) who gave us everything and wants so much to enter into the very depths of our heart and soul.

Well, kneeling in most Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are forbidden on Sundays because Sunday is the day of Resurrection. The faithful stand as it is the posture of the Resurrection.

The reason I brought that up is that first, by no means can we introduce our own preferences into what has been prescribed in another Rite. Their practice is upheld by their own tradition. Whereas in our own Rite, while kneeling is part of the tradition, we shouldn’t also disregard the authority of those above us.

If a bishop tells you to stand and you said you’ll kneel because its what you want, the does that mean those who wish to hold hands during the Our Father, dance during Mass, walk up and down the aisles during the Sign of Peace, etc. they can do as they please because that is what their inner reverence tells them?

Also, as good intentioned as you are, you are still defying the norms set by those with authority.

 

[suko]

If a bishop tells you to stand and you said you’ll kneel because its what you want, does that mean those who wish to hold hands during the Our Father, dance during Mass, walk up and down the aisles during the Sign of Peace, etc. they can do as they please because that is what their inner reverence tells them?

We are to use prudent judgment when at mass and not to deviate towards things that are obviously disruptive or have no place at mass. I think the problem nowadays is that people forget the mass is about God and the particular person assisting at mass. Not about the priest and the people. Of course, with the way the mass has slowly changed after Vatican 2, all lot of what you mentioned above is seen nowadays, though I’m sure we both wish we didn’t.

Also, as good intentioned as you are, you are still defying the norms set by those with authority.

“Defying” makes it seem like one is being disobedient to the Church. One isn’t as the pope has already made it clear that one is not to be denied communion for reasons dealing with posture. I could have sworn too that I had read somewhere that some priests got into a little trouble over this that were denying communion to those who chose to kneel. One really should not blindly follow a norm like it’s set in stone and the only thing available.
But anyway, again, when it comes to this particular issue, one is not being disobedient, nor committing a sin, and they should not let this particular “norm” set by our bishops to “influence” our decision for posture during communion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

We are to use prudent judgment when at mass and not to deviate towards things that are obviously disruptive or have no place at mass. I think the problem nowadays is that people forget the mass is about God and the particular person assisting at mass. Not about the priest and the people. Of course, with the way the mass has slowly changed after Vatican 2, all lot of what you mentioned above is seen nowadays, though I’m sure we both wish we didn’t.

I agree, but who determines that? What may be appropriate for you may not be appropriate for me. What may be deeply spiritual for me may not be for you. If this is up to the laity, there would be chaos. Shouldn’t there be some kind of higher authority who will judge the merits of any and all acts and whats for the good of the Church and make an authoritative judgement? You know, like a Bishop?

“Defying” makes it seem like one is being disobedient to the Church. One isn’t as the pope has already made it clear that one is not to be denied communion for reasons dealing with posture. I could have sworn too that I had read somewhere that some priests that got into a little trouble over this that were denying communion to those who chose to kneel.

People who also do not say “Amen” are not following the rubrics, they are not denied Communion. Canon Law is very specific which acts merits a denial of the Sacrament, and it is usualy grave acts. But still, following what the Church has prescribed is disobedience, even if its a minor infraction.

But anyway, again, when it comes to this particular issue, one is not being disobedient, nor committing a sin, and they should not let this particular “norm” set by our bishops to “influence” our decision for posture during communion.

Actually, we should let it influence what we do. That is why they prescribe a norm in the first place. If we don’t let them prescribe a norm, why bother with the GIRM? Let it just be a liturgical free-for-all every Mass. We have the kneelers on one side, the liturgical dancers on the other side, in the middle we’ll have those who stand for Consecration and amongst them mix up the hand-holders and the kissers of peace.

 

[suko]

IShouldn’t there be some kind of higher authority who will judge the merits of any and all acts and whats for the good of the Church and make an authoritative judgment? You know, like a Bishop?

While I agree with this, it isn’t always true in every scenario. Ideally, it should be. If you talked with a 100 different priests and bishops about this issue, I’m sure they would say that a person is not being disobedient. I remember hearing too about a particular saint that even said to not blindly follow our bishops.

But still, following what the Church has prescribed is disobedience, even if its a minor infraction.

For this scenario, I would disagree. We will have to agree to disagree here.

Actually, we should let it influence what we do.

I agree whole-heartedly with you on this.

However, it’s THIS particular issue where I don’t believe we should. If it was even a minor infraction, it would be a sin. Disobedience is quite a sin and I know Jesus wants us to be obedient; And since this is the case, I’m sure the pope would have let us know that we were being disobedient and sinning, wouldn’t he? Instead, the pope has fired back at the U.S. bishops and said not to deny communion on the basis of their personal preference of posture during communion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

While I agree with this, it isn’t always true in every scenario. Ideally, it should be. If you talked with a 100 different priests and bishops about this issue, I’m sure they would say that a person is not being disobedient. I remember hearing too about a particular saint that even said to not blindly follow our bishops.

I also know of a particular saint who wrote half of the New Testament who’s big on obedience and respect of Church elders.

For this scenario, I would disagree. We will have to agree to disagree here.

That would be disobeying me

I agree whole-heartedly with you on this.

However, it’s THIS particular issue where I don’t believe we should. If it was even a minor infraction, it would be a sin. Disobedience is quite a sin and I know Jesus wants us to be obedient; And since this is the case, I’m sure the pope would have let us know that we were sinning, wouldn’t he? Instead, the pope has fired back at the U.S. bishops and said not to deny communion on the basis of their personal preference of posture during communion.

Yes, and like I said, other rubrics in Communion are also disobeyed but does not result in the denial of Communion. Read the whole entry in RS regarding kneeling. It didn’t say people should kneel if they want it, it just says ministers of the Sacrament cannot deny Communion to those who kneel. Its like saying, if this person jaywalks don’t give him a ticket. But that doesn’t mean jaywalking is suddenly legal.

Also, my thrust in the previous few posts is that if we choose to not follow the prescribed norm and go our way because of our own desires and disposition, whats to prevent others who of their own desire for reverence and disposition from breaking the rubrics and doing their own thing? When the debate turns into, “this practice is better than that practice threfore its okay to break the rubrics with this practice,” then the discussion becomes subjective and in the long run become detrimental to unity. We should follow those in authority even though we do not necessarily agree. For all we know, they are right and we are wrong. Many people disobey God because they think they’re better. Do you think people who commit abortion, divorce and remarry, etc. all do it to spite God? I would say a majority doesn’t. But because of the situation they are in, they feel there’s a justification for what they do, despite all signs saying they’re doing the wrong thing.

I thoroughly believe that everything we do in life is a discipline. Do you know why we abstain during lent? Its an exercise. If we can train ourselves to say no to something as ordinary as meat, then we can say no to something habitual like sin. Everything big starts with something small. If you can’t follow the Bishops with something trivial like standing for Communion, then it may lead to bigger, more serious disobedience.

 

[suko]

Also, my thrust in the previous few posts is that if we choose to not follow the prescribed norm and go our way because of our own desires and disposition, whats to prevent others who of their own desire for reverence and disposition from breaking the rubrics and doing their own thing? When the debate turns into, “this practice is better than that practice threfore its okay to break the rubrics with this practice,”

It’s the U.S. bishops that have chosen to go their own way. I think the question here is, is it, or is it not a sin to “disobey” our U.S. bishops in regards to this issue. To me, I don’t believe so for this particular case. The way I see it, the word (“norm”), in it of itself, means that there are other licit choices that we can make, wouldn’t you think so?

We should follow those in authority even though we do not necessarily agree. For all we know, they are right and we are wrong. Many people disobey God because they think they’re better. If you can’t follow the Bishops with something trivial like standing for Communion, then it may lead to bigger, more serious disobedience.

Again, one should not blindly follow our bishops. Ideally we should. But again, it’s this particular one where we should do what our heart is telling us to do (and if it’s to stand, then by all means, that person should stand) since as far as I can tell, it’s not a sin of disobedience. If the pope or somewhere in canon law said it was, I would stop, and hope others would too - but thankfully, I don’t see that happening. We will also have to agree to disagree here at this issue. I already know how my pastor feels about this, but just for some fun, you could ask your pastor on his thoughts on this issue. But again, every pastor will probably have a different answer since there is nothing extremely definitive on this issue on whether it’s a sin of disobedience or not.

 

[suko]

Here’s an interesting link for you, ConstantineTG as well as for others about Pope Benedicts trying to set the stage as the “worldwide norm” of kneeling for communion: newsblaze.com/story/20090801065749zzzz.nb/topstory.html

Of course, this doesn’t prove anything except that Pope Benedict wants the “norm” worldwide to change to his “norm”. I, for one, hope and pray that it does.