Receiving Communion

[ConstantineTG]

I agree with this, that’s why if someone feels in their heart to kneel for Communion, they should, as it is licit.

Normally yes, but as I stated you should follow the norms set by the Bishops of the area you are in. You’ll find that in other rites the rubrics may be stricter or its generally more unacceptable to break the norms.

I found something interesting that may or may not have been mentioned about the appropriateness of “kneeling” during communion: catholic.com/library/liturgy/kneeling_1.asp

In particular, in the 2nd letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, there’s an interesting part that states “In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.”

I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m not against kneeling or saying we should never kneel. I’m not anti-kneeling, I’m pro-obedience. If the RS and GIRM says to follow what your Bishop says, you follow what your Bishop says. Every Bishop has his opinion but that would not supersede the authority of another Bishop in his own territory. If they meant a decree to be Church-wide, they would issue it with the power of legislation.

If this was a sign of disobedience (even just a little bit), thus a sin, would it have been called completely appropriate, is the question? I think instead of jumping to our own conclusions about things, it would be better to seek advice from a canon lawyer. I actually did know of a pastor who was one but has unfortunately been shipped off to some other place and has become the head of a special project of some sort. If I can get a hold of him, I’d certainly like to hear his thoughts on this, and will post it here if this thread is still around.

In another thread it was brought up that the Church is more interested in the salvation of souls than the petty arguments of the believers. That is why probably they asked that the kneelers don’t be denied Communion. But the spirit of obedience dictates that we follow those in authority, even if we don’t necessarily agree with us. If you think about it, when you were young you always disagreed with your parents, you thought your way was the right way. But as you grow up, you realized they were right all along, and always had your best interest at heart. This is why we call our Priests and Bishop, Father. They act the same way as our own father that they look out for whats best for us spiritually, and nourish our faith.

 

[Vico]

I agree with this, that’s why if someone feels in their heart to kneel for Communion, they should, as it is licit…

appropriate = especially suitable or compatible
licit = conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law** : **permissible
permissible = that may be permitted
permitted = to consent to expressly or formally

It is certainaly licit, meaning permissible, yet not always permitted by the bishop of the place. So it it is tolerated where it is not permitted, although completely appropriate and permissible.

 

[ConstantineTG]

appropriate = especially suitable or compatible
licit = conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law** : **permissible
permissible = that may be permitted
permitted = to consent to expressly or formally

It is certainaly licit, meaning permissible, yet not always permitted by the bishop of the place. So it it is tolerated where it is not permitted, although completely appropriate and permissible.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with kneeling. But its the same as nothing is wrong with standing during the first and second readings. Does that mean I go against the norm because I feel I should be standing during the first and second readings? The GIRM doesn’t prescribe a posture for the readings whereas it prescribes as standing is the norm for Communion.

 

[ProVobis]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with kneeling. But its the same as nothing is wrong with standing during the first and second readings. Does that mean I go against the norm because I feel I should be standing during the first and second readings? The GIRM doesn’t prescribe a posture for the readings whereas it prescribes as standing is the norm for Communion.

I believe Cardinal Arinze said somewhere on that video that one is always free to kneel during communion as long as he’s not a nuisance to those around him. So there is that little restriction, and it’s one of common sense because they’ll always be someone there to prove a point or to assert his rights instead of worshipping God in the best manner possible.

 

[Vico]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with kneeling. But its the same as nothing is wrong with standing during the first and second readings. Does that mean I go against the norm because I feel I should be standing during the first and second readings? The GIRM doesn’t prescribe a posture for the readings whereas it prescribes as standing is the norm for Communion.

Maybe I don’t understand, this seems to be the GIRM norm:

1. Stand: beginning of entrance song or when priest enters 'til the end of the
   collect
2. Sit: readings before the Gospel and the responsorial psalm
3. Stand: for the singing of the Alleluia before, and during the gospel
4. Sit: during the homily
5. Stand: for the profession of faith and the general intercessions
6. Sit: the presentation of gifts
7. Stand: prayer over the gifts 'til after the Sanctus (US)
8. Kneel: after the Sanctus 'til the Amen before the Lord’s Prayer
9. Stand: after the Eucharistic Prayer Amen 'til the end of Mass, and during reception of communion, after your head bow and Amen* (US). Sit, stand, or kneel - in silence after communion.

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• once for Body of Christ and once for Blood of Christ, each in turn, saying Amen each time.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Maybe I don’t understand, this seems to be the GIRM norm:

1. Stand: beginning of entrance song or when priest enters 'til the end of the
   collect
2. Sit: readings before the Gospel and the responsorial psalm
3. Stand: for the singing of the Alleluia before, and during the gospel
4. Sit: during the homily
5. Stand: for the profession of faith and the general intercessions
6. Sit: the presentation of gifts
7. Stand: prayer over the gifts 'til after the Sanctus (US)
8. Kneel: after the Sanctus 'til the Amen before the Lord’s Prayer
9. Stand: after the Eucharistic Prayer Amen 'til the end of Mass, and during reception of communion, after your head bow and Amen* (US). Sit, stand, or kneel - in silence after communion.

---

• once for Body of Christ and once for Blood of Christ, each in turn, saying Amen each time.

Maybe I’m looking at the wrong section

But in any case, it doesn’t say I cannot stand or kneel from my pew. So should I just because nothing is stopping me?

 

[Walking_Home]

I believe Cardinal Arinze said somewhere on that video that one is always free to kneel during communion as long as he’s not a nuisance to those around him. So there is that little restriction, and it’s one of common sense because they’ll always be someone there to prove a point or to assert his rights instead of worshipping God in the best manner possible.

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Yes, one is free to kneel for communion. As has been posted prior, Rome has issued directives via the CDWDS clarifying and protecting the right of people to kneel for communion. As noted below by a canon lawyer --when Rome and a bishop disagree (are at odds) we are obligated to follow the higher authority–being Rome. The issue below deals with posture during communion—but the same principle applies for kneeling for communion-- as can be seen in the next question and reply.

When Rome and bishop disagree…

Question from on 10-06-2007:
Gentlemen, Thank you first for your unwavering support in these fora. In my diocese, the Bishop has mandated that all will remain standing throughout the entire Communion process, until the last person has received. My reading of the GIRM leads me to believe that after reception of Holy COmmunion, I may sit or kneel. Are there canons that address this issue, and if I am correct, do I follow Rome or my Bishop?

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 10-20-2007:

When two authorities are at odds, one is obligated to follow the higher authority.

You are correct on your reading of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. This document contains the norms for the celebration of the Mass. The Code of Canon Law contains very few directives regarding the Mass specifically.

There was also **an official response from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments that said that people are not obligated to remain standing after Holy Communion.
**

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=517538&Forums=9&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=kneel&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Kneeling at Communion

Question from on 12-05-2005:
Hello, When I receive Communion I kneel before the Priest. We have no Altar rail. I am mindful not to cause the person behind me to trip, I am most careful. Today the celebrant, a Bishop, said " I prefer that you not do that sir", as he placed the Host on my tongue. I was astonished that he would choose to speak to, let alone express his own preference, at that moment of the most profound and sublime intimacy, as I was receiving the Body,Blood,Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. It is my understanding that according to Redemptionis Sacramentum it is my right to kneel, but I am unsure if this would be considered openly defiant to the Bishop. I cannot belive this happened ! Am I within my rights? Should I write to him and express my feelings or simply let it go? I am quite conflicted.

Thank you,
Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 12-11-2005:

Print this out and send it to the bishop.

This is from a letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments Prot. n. 47/03/L dated February 26, 2003: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not be denied Holy Communion on thse grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=455417&Forums=9&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=kneel&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=46&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

 

[MarkThompson]

appropriate = especially suitable or compatible
licit = conforming to the requirements of the law : not forbidden by law** : **permissible
permissible = that may be permitted
permitted = to consent to expressly or formally

It is certainaly licit, meaning permissible, yet not always permitted by the bishop of the place. So it it is tolerated where it is not permitted, although completely appropriate and permissible.

That’s true only if you understand “permissible” in the unusual sense of “could have been permitted.” I say unusual, because if the speed limit on a road is 45, you don’t go 60 and say it is “permissible” because it might have been permitted (had the highway commission decided differently). Rather, as you stated, permissible = licit = conforming to the requirements of law, regulation, or other directive. In the case of the United States, the directive is to stand.

Maybe I don’t understand, this seems to be the GIRM norm:

1. Stand: beginning of entrance song or when priest enters 'til the end of the
   collect
2. Sit: readings before the Gospel and the responsorial psalm
3. Stand: for the singing of the Alleluia before, and during the gospel
4. Sit: during the homily
5. Stand: for the profession of faith and the general intercessions
6. Sit: the presentation of gifts
7. Stand: prayer over the gifts 'til after the Sanctus (US)
8. Kneel: after the Sanctus 'til the Amen before the Lord’s Prayer
9. Stand: after the Eucharistic Prayer Amen 'til the end of Mass, and during reception of communion, after your head bow and Amen* (US). Sit, stand, or kneel - in silence after communion.

---

• once for Body of Christ and once for Blood of Christ, each in turn, saying Amen each time.

What I’ve highlighted is correct for most of the world. However, the U.S. Bishops sought and obtained an indult to prescribe kneeling as the posture from after the Agnus Dei to the reception of Communion. Individual bishops may dispense from that and revert to the universal norm, but otherwise the American norm is to kneel at that point.

 

[MarkThompson]

Kneeling at Communion

Huh? Sounds like the bishop behaved 100% correctly. He administered Communion without any fuss and without making the individual stand for it, did not accuse him of being disobedient, and did not accuse him of acting illicitly. Kneeling is an incorrect posture, so it is to be dealt with pastorally. That’s precisely what the bishop did: a gentle nudge phrased almost as asking a personal favor, not as telling the person he was disobeying the rubric. This bishop deserves a letter of commendation, not condemnation.

The Vatican has not said that it is permitted to kneel for Communion. “Not to be punished and accused of disobedience” ≠ “A free-for-all where you pick whatever feels good.”

 

[Vico]

That’s true only if you understand “permissible” in the unusual sense of “could have been permitted.” I say unusual, because if the speed limit on a road is 45, you don’t go 60 and say it is “permissible” because it might have been permitted (had the highway commission decided differently). Rather, as you stated, permissible = licit = conforming to the requirements of law, regulation, or other directive. In the case of the United States, the directive is to stand.

What I’ve highlighted is correct for most of the world. However, the U.S. Bishops sought and obtained an indult to prescribe kneeling as the posture from after the Agnus Dei to the reception of Communion. Individual bishops may dispense from that and revert to the universal norm, but otherwise the American norm is to kneel at that point.

Glad you mentioned the Agnes Dei, another variable.

I mean it in this sense: permissible pertaining to a right (ius) rather than a favor (gratia).

 

[Walking_Home]

Huh? Sounds like the bishop behaved 100% correctly. He administered Communion without any fuss and without making the individual stand for it, did not accuse him of being disobedient, and did not accuse him of acting illicitly. Kneeling is an incorrect posture, so it is to be dealt with pastorally. That’s precisely what the bishop did: a gentle nudge phrased almost as asking a personal favor, not as telling the person he was disobeying the rubric. This bishop deserves a letter of commendation, not condemnation.

The Vatican has not said that it is permitted to kneel for Communion. “Not to be punished and accused of disobedience” ≠ “A free-for-all where you pick whatever feels good.”

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Please do not twist what the letters/directive say. Kneeling is a proper posture —as has been already stated by Rome. And you will not find anywhere in these letters/directives issued by Rome that a person is to be “dealt with pastorally” .

 

[Vico]

Maybe I’m looking at the wrong section

But in any case, it doesn’t say I cannot stand or kneel from my pew. So should I just because nothing is stopping me?

For the after communion silence, there was a dubium. On June 5, 2003, Cardinal George received the following response (Prot. n. 855/03/L) from Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments:

"Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion."

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/703.shtml

 

[MarkThompson]

Please do not twist what the letters/directive say. Kneeling is a proper posture —as has been already stated by Rome. And you will not find anywhere in these letters/directives issued by Rome that a person is to be “dealt with pastorally” .

Of course there’s no need for the personal attacks, but if there were, one could point out that the ones “twisting” the facts are the ones claiming that Rome has basically said it is just fine to kneel. Rome has said you are not to be punished for kneeling. Big difference. The bishops choose the posture, and in the U.S. they have chosen standing.

And you’re quite mistaken about how people who kneel are supposed to be dealt with. There are to be corrected pastorally.
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. [GIRM http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1”]160.]
I commend this holy bishop for the pastoral way in which he sought to encourage adherence to the correct posture: standing.

 

[Walking_Home]

Of course there’s no need for the personal attacks, but if there were, one could point out that the ones “twisting” the facts are the ones claiming that Rome has basically said it is just fine to kneel. Rome has said you are not to be punished for kneeling. Big difference. The bishops choose the posture, and in the U.S. they have chosen standing.

And you’re quite mistaken about how people who kneel are supposed to be dealt with. There are to be corrected pastorally.
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. [GIRM http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter4.shtml#sect1”]160

.]
I commend this holy bishop for the pastoral way in which he sought to encourage adherence to the correct posture: standing. ​

Again —please do not distort the true content of CDWDS directives/letters.

 

[MarkThompson]

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Again —please do not distort the true content of CDWDS directives/letters.

A devastating response.

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post

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A response that speaks the truth MarkThompson—truth—nothing more --nothing less–just the truth.

 

[MarkThompson]

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A response that speaks the truth MarkThompson—truth—nothing more --nothing less–just the truth.

Thank you! Yes, my response did speak the truth. I’m glad you looked back over it and figured out where you were mistaken.

 

[benedictgal]

I am wading into this landmine rather cautiously. However, here is what Pope Benedict XVI stated about kneeling back in May 2008 for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi:

At this point we cannot forget the beginning of the “Decalogue”, the Ten Commandments, where it is written: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex 20: 2-3). Here we find the meaning of the third constitutive element of Corpus Christi: kneeling in adoration before the Lord. Adoring the God of Jesus Christ, who out of love made himself bread broken, is the most effective and radical remedy against the idolatry of the past and of the present. Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.

Here is the explanation that Msgr. Guido Mariani gave regarding the norm at the Papal Mass for those receiving Holy Communion from the Holy Father:

«In this regard, it must not be forgotten that the distribution of communion in the hand remains, from the juridical point of view, a dispensation from the universal law, conceded by the Holy See to the bishops’ conferences that have asked for it. The practice adopted by Benedict XVI tends to emphasize the continued validity of the norm for the whole Church. In addition, one might also note a preference for the use of this manner of distribution which, without taking anything away from the other, better highlights the truth of the real presence in the Eucharist, aids the devotion of the faithful, and makes it easier to enter into the sense of mystery. In our time, pastorally speaking, it is urgent to recover and emphasize these aspects.»

If the Holy Father and the CDWDS have reiterated that there is nothing wrong with kneeling to receive Holy Communion, then, we really cannot say that this is ilicit. Inasmuch as standing is the norm in the United States, this point was granted to the USCCB with the understanding that if a communicant chose to kneel, the individual could not and should not be denied Holy Communion.

 

[benedictgal]

Regarding the issue of kneeling during Holy Communion (as the dubium posted in a previous reply noted the posture after the reception of Holy Communion), here is what the CDWDS stated back in 2003:

Prot. n. 47/03/L
Rome, February 26, 2003

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated December 1, 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,
[signed]
Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary

Thus, this particular posture for receiving Holy Communion is not ilicit. This is not merely an opinion, but, a condition set forth by the CDWDS when it granted the USCCB permission to insert the “standing” provision into the GIRM.

As I said, I am wading cautiously into this landmine, but, I think that it is very important to look at the documents and the writings of the Popes on this issue. If such a posture were “ilicit”, why would the Holy Father have restored it for those communicants receive Holy Communion from him? Why would the CDWDS make such a strong statement on the matter to the extent that it had to pretty much bind the USCCB into accepting kneeling as a posture in order to receive the recognitio for standing?

Rome is certainly not being inconsistent. It seems that, to a certain extent, we are. Rome does not speak out of both sides of her mouth.

Now, regarding the OP’s question about saying “Amen”, the GIRM does indicate that for the OF, we need to do so. Under the OF, the priest recites the formula and actually concludes with the “Amen”. However, we cannot mix and match the forms. Naturally, there will be some confusion if a communicant goes from one form to another and could forget to say “Amen” in the OF and then say “Amen” in the EF. But, if it is a genuine mistake, then the EMHC does not have the right to deny Holy Communion.

 

[MarkThompson]

The determination of the correct posture has been delegated to the bishops. Ours have decided on standing. However, the delegation recognized that conformity on this issue is not of such overriding importance that the Holy Communion is to be denied over it. “Rather,” the GIRM tells us, “such instances should be addressed pastorally.”

I really don’t understand what’s so difficult to grasp about this. Rome has done people a favor by saying that people should not be punished for kneeling, but still people insist on taking that and spinning it as Rome practically asking us to kneel. No. The GIRM states that the norm is standing. As the 2003 letter quoted above reconfirms, “the norm in question has attained the force of law.” It does not provide permission to kneel, it merely, by pure indulgence, specifies that kneeling shall not incur the penalty of withholding of Communion. It is to be “addressed,” though.